Hosted by Rowan Baylis
The Spitfire that never was...
Posted: Sunday, August 26, 2007 - 10:21 PM UTC
... or perhaps this should be called "The Spitfire that almost was."
Hi all
It's long been my ambition to build a model of the Spitfire in it's pre-Prototype form. Of course, strictly speaking, it wasn't actually called a Spitfire at that stage - it was the Supermarine Type 300. The inspiration for my build comes from a drawing by Harry Robinson based on the best information of how Reginald Mitchell's fighter appeared in January 1935.
The list of changes between the design at that stage and the form in which it flew just over a year later includes:
A shorter rear fuselage with a different cross-section, plus a tighter cockpit canopy.
The horizontal tail is set lower - this was moved up (along with the fuselage being lengthened) for the prototype because wind-tunnel tests predicted poor spinning characteristics.
A slightly different shaped wing with less dihedral.
A different exhaust and cooling system, so the classic Spitfire underwing radiators are missing, but there's a retractable radiator under the fuselage.
An armament of 4 x Browning .303s and light bombs.
I'll be using the new Airfix Spitfire Mk 1 as a basis for the project - but there'll be some radical surgery involved and (obviously) this isn't going to be a quick build - even by my notorious standards!
I'll post updates as when I make progress...
All the best
Rowan
Tarok
Victoria, Australia
Joined: July 28, 2004
KitMaker: 10,889 posts
AeroScale: 174 posts
Joined: July 28, 2004
KitMaker: 10,889 posts
AeroScale: 174 posts
Posted: Sunday, August 26, 2007 - 11:13 PM UTC
Hey Rowan,
Sounds like an interesting project. I'll be following this one carefully.
Rudi
Sounds like an interesting project. I'll be following this one carefully.
Rudi
Posted: Sunday, August 26, 2007 - 11:18 PM UTC
Sounds very interesting and ambitious. However, the result will surely be unique.
Looking forward to see more
Looking forward to see more
CaptainA
Indiana, United States
Joined: May 14, 2007
KitMaker: 3,117 posts
AeroScale: 2,270 posts
Joined: May 14, 2007
KitMaker: 3,117 posts
AeroScale: 2,270 posts
Posted: Monday, August 27, 2007 - 02:27 AM UTC
You have way too many projects going
Posted: Monday, August 27, 2007 - 05:09 AM UTC
Quoted Text
You have way too many projects going
Hi Carl
It's not that I have too many projects... it's just that I'm so bad at finishing them!
All the best
Rowan
Posted: Monday, August 27, 2007 - 05:14 AM UTC
Quoted Text
You have way too many projects going
Hi Rowan!
Nice one! Put all the other projects aside and do the Spitfire! You know how I like these kind of projects!
This will be a stunner for sure! I can't wait to see the first pics...
Jean-Luc
Posted: Monday, August 27, 2007 - 06:20 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextYou have way too many projects going
Hi Rowan!
Nice one! Put all the other projects aside and do the Spitfire! You know how I like these kind of projects!
This will be a stunner for sure! I can't wait to see the first pics...
Jean-Luc
Cheers Jean-Luc
It's certainly a subject after your own heart - and your wonderful Speed Spitfire and Dübendorf Brothers Feature articles will definitely be an inspiration!
All the best
Rowan
Posted: Monday, August 27, 2007 - 08:36 AM UTC
You will also need to make resin copies because all the world will want one of these Can't wait to see this one Rowan, no slacking now.
Mal
Mal
Posted: Monday, August 27, 2007 - 10:06 AM UTC
Quoted Text
You will also need to make resin copies because all the world will want one of these Can't wait to see this one Rowan, no slacking now.
Mal
Hi Mal
I have to admit I hadn't been thinking of doing the conversion with a view to casting parts - it's a bit of a different ball-game. But now you've gone and set the cogwheels turning... darn you! Hmmm... we'll see...
All the best
Rowan
CaptainA
Indiana, United States
Joined: May 14, 2007
KitMaker: 3,117 posts
AeroScale: 2,270 posts
Joined: May 14, 2007
KitMaker: 3,117 posts
AeroScale: 2,270 posts
Posted: Monday, August 27, 2007 - 10:56 AM UTC
Resin copies? Yet another future non-completed job/
Tarok
Victoria, Australia
Joined: July 28, 2004
KitMaker: 10,889 posts
AeroScale: 174 posts
Joined: July 28, 2004
KitMaker: 10,889 posts
AeroScale: 174 posts
Posted: Monday, August 27, 2007 - 05:18 PM UTC
Quoted Text
You will also need to make resin copies because all the world will want one of these Can't wait to see this one Rowan, no slacking now.
Mal
Even I'll take a kit if you make one *gasp*
Posted: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 - 07:17 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Even I'll take a kit if you make one *gasp*
Hi Rudi
Good grief! This is getting serious!
I'm going to start measuring things up ready for surgery tonight...
All the best
Rowan
Posted: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 - 08:42 AM UTC
Hi again
Very much a rough block-out to get a sense of how the changes will look transferred to the kit.
Even allowing for perspective distortion in the photo, you can get an idea of the smaller cockpit with a raised sill and no glazing aft of the sliding section.
The rear fuselage is shorter and the tailplane lower. Also visible is the original design's angled rudder line.
Despite the differences in the fuselage, this is still unmistakable a Spitfire, so it's surprising to see what a difference a subtle change makes to the wings; we're so used to the elegant ellipses of the early Spitfire's wingtips, it's a bit of a shock to see they weren't always planned that way. In January 1935, the tips were less pointed and, dare I say it, a bit clumsy looking...
I'll probably start the conversion with the wings to get a feel for things. All the detail will have to go - the radiators (obviously), but none of the guns line up with the position on the Mk 1 and it'll need new ailerons. For want of any evidence, I'll rescribe the surfaces according to plans of the clinker-built skinning of the prototype.
More updates once I've started to cut some plastic - hopefully later this week.
All the best
Rowan
Very much a rough block-out to get a sense of how the changes will look transferred to the kit.
Even allowing for perspective distortion in the photo, you can get an idea of the smaller cockpit with a raised sill and no glazing aft of the sliding section.
The rear fuselage is shorter and the tailplane lower. Also visible is the original design's angled rudder line.
Despite the differences in the fuselage, this is still unmistakable a Spitfire, so it's surprising to see what a difference a subtle change makes to the wings; we're so used to the elegant ellipses of the early Spitfire's wingtips, it's a bit of a shock to see they weren't always planned that way. In January 1935, the tips were less pointed and, dare I say it, a bit clumsy looking...
I'll probably start the conversion with the wings to get a feel for things. All the detail will have to go - the radiators (obviously), but none of the guns line up with the position on the Mk 1 and it'll need new ailerons. For want of any evidence, I'll rescribe the surfaces according to plans of the clinker-built skinning of the prototype.
More updates once I've started to cut some plastic - hopefully later this week.
All the best
Rowan
Posted: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 - 09:24 AM UTC
That looks a project and a half.
How will you increase the wing length ?
The curvature of the front of the tail looks to be at a more vertical angle then the MK 1or is it just my eyes playing up .
Looks like the old pastime coming back again .
Andy
How will you increase the wing length ?
The curvature of the front of the tail looks to be at a more vertical angle then the MK 1or is it just my eyes playing up .
Quoted Text
You will also need to make resin copies because all the world will want one of these
Quoted Text
Even I'll take a kit if you make one
Looks like the old pastime coming back again .
Andy
Posted: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 - 09:34 AM UTC
Quoted Text
That looks a project and a half.
How will you increase the wing length ?
The curvature of the front of the tail looks to be at a more vertical angle then the MK 1or is it just my eyes playing up .
Quoted TextYou will also need to make resin copies because all the world will want one of these
Quoted TextEven I'll take a kit if you make one
Looks like the old pastime coming back again .
Andy
Hi Andy
The wingtips should be pretty easy - I'll extend them with plastic card faired-in (well, that's Plan #1 anyway... ) - and I'll replace the ailerons completely, because the Airfix originals are terribly thick and rather unconvincing, so it's not worth trying to modify them.
The front of the vertical tail? No, your eye's aren't deceiving you; Airfix didn't get the shape quite right, so that really needs building-up and re-shaping even if you're building the kit as a Mk 1.
Resin copies... yes - it's horrible echoes of Blueprint Models! Do I really want to go there again? Scary! ...
All the best
Rowan
Tarok
Victoria, Australia
Joined: July 28, 2004
KitMaker: 10,889 posts
AeroScale: 174 posts
Joined: July 28, 2004
KitMaker: 10,889 posts
AeroScale: 174 posts
Posted: Friday, August 31, 2007 - 11:38 PM UTC
Hey Rowan,
A quick question... you mentioned that this is pre-prototype stage... so this is pre-K5054?
Sorry about the naive question...
Rudi
A quick question... you mentioned that this is pre-prototype stage... so this is pre-K5054?
Sorry about the naive question...
Rudi
Posted: Saturday, September 01, 2007 - 12:37 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Hey Rowan,
A quick question... you mentioned that this is pre-prototype stage... so this is pre-K5054?
Sorry about the naive question...
Rudi
Hi Rudi
This is the Spitfire as envisaged before any metal was cut. It was never built in this form and the design was revised progressively through the summer of 1935. By the autumn, with work underway on building the prototype, the rear fuselage had been lengthened and changed to an oval cross-section, the tailplane raised and the wings altered with a slightly shorter span, increased dihedral and Frederick Meredeth's newly-designed ducted radiator system.
So, rather than pre-dating K5054, it's perhaps more true to say this is what K5054 might have looked like in other circumstances.
All the best
Rowan
Tarok
Victoria, Australia
Joined: July 28, 2004
KitMaker: 10,889 posts
AeroScale: 174 posts
Joined: July 28, 2004
KitMaker: 10,889 posts
AeroScale: 174 posts
Posted: Saturday, September 01, 2007 - 12:50 AM UTC
Thanks Rowan.
So it's basically a concept aircraft? A 'paper' aircraft if you will?
Rudi
So it's basically a concept aircraft? A 'paper' aircraft if you will?
Rudi
Posted: Saturday, September 01, 2007 - 01:10 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Thanks Rowan.
So it's basically a concept aircraft? A 'paper' aircraft if you will?
Rudi
Hi Rudi
Not exactly - because that implies a totally separate design. This is the Supermarine Type 300 - later named the Spitfire - it's just a snapshot of the design at an early stage in its evolution.
All the best
Rowan
Tarok
Victoria, Australia
Joined: July 28, 2004
KitMaker: 10,889 posts
AeroScale: 174 posts
Joined: July 28, 2004
KitMaker: 10,889 posts
AeroScale: 174 posts
Posted: Sunday, September 09, 2007 - 06:29 AM UTC
Hey Rowan,
No more updates?
I came across a reference to the design today and it's all in context now
So can we expect to see an original PV-12 in the Type 300 as well?
Rudi
No more updates?
I came across a reference to the design today and it's all in context now
So can we expect to see an original PV-12 in the Type 300 as well?
Rudi
Posted: Sunday, September 09, 2007 - 06:41 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Hey Rowan,
No more updates?
I came across a reference to the design today and it's all in context now
So can we expect to see an original PV-12 in the Type 300 as well?
Rudi
Hi Rudi
No, sorry - I've filled in areas like the radiators and exhausts with epoxy resin and carved away the horizontal tail roots, but Eduard's Bf 110 is my priority now that it's arrived. The Spit is a long-term project.
And no, I'm not going to open up the cowling - sadly (or maybe thankfully! LOL!), I don't have any references for the internal setup of the exhausts and air-scoops, which are completely different to the final arrangement.
All the best
Rowan