Hello!
My name is Daniel Blasco and I'm a Spanish modeller.
You can see few of my models here
http://aeromteam.webhop.org/
My models have the logo of a bull

I'm interested in "Gothic Serpent" operations. I was trying to obtain information about these special operations, specially about October 3rd 1993 mission; I don't know if it was called Operation Eileen or it was just a callsing.
I need mostly graphic information, because historical info was provided by several webs, the book from Mark Bowden "BH down" and History Channel movie "BH down, the true story"

I'm trying to do two dioramas with two kits from Academy in 1/35th scale.

MH60 kit
http://www.megahobby.com/productimages/acd/ACD2217.jpg
http://www.cobracompany.com/35005.htm


and dragon
MH6 kit
http://www.modelhobbies.co.uk/shop/images/military135/DN3527.jpg
http://www.cobracompany.com/35003.htm

I'd like to represent two very dramatic moments.
In first diorama, using MH60, I'd like to show the moment when rangers take position doing a fast rope. I want to put in my diorama one pilot, one copilot, two crew members (operating miniguns)(CMK F35070) 2 delta operators (as a port shooters) (delta force from dragon), 6 or 7 rangers, 3 or 4 doing the fast rope, two just before taking the rope and one leading the chalk (I'm goig to use dragon ref 3011 US101st Air assault figures) . All of them will be inside the helo or hanging on the rope.

Second dio wants to represent the landing of delta force operators on the roof of targets. I want to put MH6 pilot, copilot, and 4 delta operators jumping out and running from the helo.

I write to you because I'm trying to learn about configurations of MH-60 and MH-06 in personal carrier role, just in that era.
I saw a lot of photos but I don't know if those configurations were used in Mogadishu.
What I know is that MH60 helos implicated in taking position by rangers were called super61, super64, super67, super 66

I know that MH60 helos do not use pilot and co-pilot doors. They didn't use refuelling probe.
But I don't know much more. I suposse that principal sensors were used (I mean they are present). I mean front sensor probe (radar), under front sensor probe (FLIR), above IRCM "pot", and rescue hoist, too.
I don't know if plume detectors on the tail or plume detectors on the front of the helo were used.
I don't know either if laser sensors just behind cargo section were used .
I think that APR 39 sensors above tail stabilisers were not used.


I checked that color used by 160th SOAR helos was a very faded black , and this was true in Somalia, too. Obviously with an extensive sand dust coat.



Was internal additional fuel tank used?
I think black Hawks used two independent ammo boxes for minigus. Can I use ammo boxes fron Dragon AH6 kit or I have to use academy ammo box and make a copy of it
Were flares and chaffs systems boxes used?
My kit hasn't any representation of fast rope connections . Could you tell me how is that part?.

Are markings used in Mogadishu? In which color? I have markings in yellow (markings for "southern comfort") but I think it's a very brilliant color. I have photos from super61. There is a graffiti on the right engine that seems something like this: (square root symbol) √ ERPM(in something similar to greek alphabet). It seems to me that it was written with white (dirty) paint. Where an I found decals?


Did the Little birds use some kind of probes like FLIR in Mogadishu?
Which kind of external seats was used by MH-6 in Mogadishu on oct 3rd? I have a kit from the cobra company (www.cobracompany.com) that represents a seat in this shape __/---__
But I think that seats used were in this shape _____.
If the seats used were the plain shape please, would you send me photos or links where I can view attachments helo-seats and disposal of these seats?

Please, note that I don't need technical data. I'm only interested in external appearance, just to represent in my models.


Thank you very much

DANIEL

Here's a thread that covers the events you're interested in.

Anyhow on Prime Portal there's a brand new walkaround of the MH-6E which is the one used on oct 3rd; at least that's what the sign in the museum says.




Nose radar and FLIR yes. No plume detectors.




Will check on that. I'm not sure either.




No, at least not on oct 3rd.




No go on AH-6's ammo boxes. What was used were 40mm grenade ammo boxes with attached drive chutes. Cobra Co. has those in their M-134 minigun kit.




Yes, even though I'm not sure if you'll have to use all the ones that come with the kit.




Again PrimePortal ha a nice HH-60G walk around showing a fast rope system.




Yellow markings are bad. The stencils were olive drab and some Black Hawks had red serials on the tail.




The writing says "Venom" and like all the other personalizations was in ghost gray or white; it was written with chalks.




Cobra Co. recently made a 1/35 subdued stencil sheet for the MH-60




They had the mount but not the FLIR itself.




NOT the ones you get with Cobra co's kit.




Again look at Prime Portal.

Hope that helps.

Thanks a lot.
Superb pics.
I'm still checking all the photos. I think I will answer you again if you don't mind. I see that you are a master in this subject.

Thanks again

DANI

Anyhow on Prime Portal there's a brand new walkaround of the MH-6E which is the one used on oct 3rd; at least that's what the sign in the museum says.


Umm ...
hate to burst any bubbles, but the signs read "Operation Just Cause".
That was our lil invasion to grab manuel noriega...
Granted it is the same style of bird flown during TFR, Op GS.

Not trying to be picky, just making sure that it's clear which Op the prime portal bird was used in.

Chris

Thanks, but I'm not master. It's just that I've gathered info on the same subject in the last years, since I'm planning on doing the same subjects as you do: hovering Black Hawk with rappeling Rangers and Little Bird disembarking Deltas.



Roger! I must admit I didn't read the sign too thoroughly ... actually, I didn't read it at all; i Just noticed it was telling about an operation.
Thanks for noticing.

Since Little Birds are mainly used in SOF missions they are veiled in a cloud of mistery and telling differences between the various models is a pain in the ...
Actually in the Mog they might have used the "Juliet" version BUT I could not say the difference from the "Echo".

Thanks for linking him to the BHD thread in the Rotary Wing Forum, you will find lots of info on BHD Helos.

The figures you have selected for the pilots and crew are not really correct for Op Gothic Serpent. They are actually more suited for Vietnam-era Huey pilots. Check this thread for more info on helo pilot figures. The Nemrod Crew is the best for the Op Gothic Serpent time frame, with the ones from MRC/Academy's OH-58D a close second.

Good luck.

Hi, Gino
Thanks for your opinions, links and info.
A question about pilots. I see that nemrod pilots wears a jacket but in SOAR missions, I think that it was not used. I think that they used the flying suit and, a black kevlar vest?. So I think it was unusable for me, at least pilot and copilot. Probably crew chiefs are good.
It's difficult to get kiowa pilots. My bright idea is to buy a Academy's Kiowa, take the pilots and sell the whole helicopter. Brilliant, Isn't it? ;-)
Other idea is just to buy trumpeter pilots and change heads(and helmets of course) for CMK ones. Is it possible?

I have another question. For everybody. KLAUS PAGANO tell me that there are used individual ammo boxes for each minigun. I saw photos from HH60G external guns but it seems very rare to me to put ammo boxes in that way. I haven't see in any photo. Andrey Bass in his fantastic replica of Super61 doesn't put ammo boxes external. But I don't see where are situated.

Something more about fast rope. I see a very detailed part in photos ans in Andrey's model but I don't know where I must hang the rope itself.

Other question. How the floor is? I know that SOARs put kevlar sheets on the floor so I think that superdatailed eduard photoetched is no necessary, but how can I represent kevlar sheets?

Thanks a lot to all of you.

DANI

The Nemrod figures are still the best to use. The wear of a jacket is up to the pilot. If he is cold, he puts it on. SOAR pilots get cold too. The Nemrod crew is wearing just the flight suits though, without body armor vests.

The OH-58D pilots are good too. Good luck selling the kit if you go that route. You could change out the heads on the Trumpeter ones too.

The external ammo boxes were not used at the time of OP Gothic Serpent. They have only been added in the last couple of years and only on USAF HH-60Gs. What you need to get are 40mm ammo cans with the drive motors from the Academy ammo box added to them. They are placed on the floor of the helo in front of the miniguns on the inside of the cabin. Cobra Company has these in their Blackhawk Weapons set, top right in the picture.

The fastrope is hung off the rings on the outer ends of the FRIES rig. The rings are red on my MH-60L DAP below.



You can see more of mine here. It is a post-BHD helo, but will give you some ideas.

Also, the pics that my esteemed fellow helo-nut Avus linked you to for the FastRope attachment is not correct for an Army SOAR bird. It is actually a USAF 4-point rapel rig. Army SOAR uses the FRIES (FastRope Insertion/Extraction Sytem) as is shown on mine. It has two posts which extend out and the FastRope attaches to rings on the ends of the poles. These rings have electrical quick-releases to drop the ropes after the troopers are on the ground too.

It can be seen on the roof in this pic too.


Great walk-around of a 160th SOAR MH-60L at ARC too.

The Kevlar blankets can be replicated with sheet styrene. Just cut it into squares, paint them, and apply them to the floor.

You might want to check this thead on Fine Scale. It's about Andy's build and covers many of the questions you asked.

Regarding the ammo box question, i was refering to 40mm boxes on the inside, wich were used, as far as I know, only by Army (SOF) helicopters.
HH-60G is an Air Force helo and recently they adopted external ammo boxes to gain cargo space.

Thank you very much!!

I'm collecting a lot of info. I'm scared with hard work to do this celing and FRIES.

I wrote a stupid phrase about pilots clothes. I mean that SOAR pilots didn't wear jackets in somalia, at least on 3rd oct. Well, I think so. For that reason i don´t like nemrod figures.

I see that I have to waste more money in Cobra Co weapons set.
But I don't see any ammo belt. How can it be done?

And to do kevlar blankets. Are they black? Are textured? Do you know size aprox?

Thanks a lot, guys, you're fantastic!!!!

DANI

You don't have to get the CC weapons set. I was only using it as an example. Many accessory sets come with 40mm ammo cans. Simply take a 40mm can, cut the drive motors off the Academy kit ammo box, and put them on the ammo cans. I don't know if the CC weapons set includes ammo feed chutes, but his other sets do. Also, Chris will sell them separately if you send him an email. He is a great guy. I personally don't think CC sets are a waste of money though. They are quite nice and worth the price to me.

I'm not sure of the exact size of the Kevlar blankets, but 4 foot square sounds about right. They are OD Green in color and smooth in texture.

hi guys,

Well, after reviewing thousand of threads I follow from links you put here I've learnt a lot of things. I visited Fine scale, ARC, hoverlover model page forums. I haven't finished yed to download tons of info I 've found.
I saw superb Gino's HH, MH models and I download your albums from photobucket.

First I have to apologize. My english is quite bad and reading my last post I saw a mistake. "waste" is not an apropiate term. In fact I want to write to Chris. I think that my Cobra co kit is not as complete as I thougt.
I have ref 1/35 Scale MH-60L Conversion Set 35005 and maybe I need1/35 Scale MH/HH-60G Update and detail set 35006 and maybe I need other pieces from 1/35 Scale UH-60L Correction/ Detail set 35004

Of course, I need weapons from Cobra co and ammo belts or ,chutes? and decals.

So, I can't say "waste".

I understand that FRIES is different between HH USAF and MH army. Gino's way with only one bar seems to me the correct. But I see differences in Gino's last photos. First with model with one bar and second, a real helo photo with two bars one rounded and one squared with two retractil bars rounded. I think that this last squared bar is the FRIES system but , what is the totally rounded bar is?

I revised Eduard photoetch sets and I'm not sure. I think external photoetch is useful, but is necessary the internal set? What do you think about it?

Thank you, again

DANI

You don't really need to replace the kit M134 MiniGuns. They are quite adequate and will look great with some super-detailing. I used the kit weapons on my HH and MH models.

The second round bar you see is the upper seat support bar, not part of the FRIES rig. On the picture below, it is the round bar on the left side of the pic with the yellow and red/black bungi cords and a padlock attached to it. The standard seat support bar is often left in place. The FRIES Rig is the large square bar with the retractable round poles on either side with red rings on the ends. I decided to leave the seat support off of my MH-60L DAP.



I used parts from all three sets you mentioned. The best to get is the HH/MM-60G update set. It is the most complete.

I didn't use any of the Eduard sets. I am not big on PE, but I think the internal set with the seat belts would be more useful.

Just a tidbit...... Some other Ammo can sets will have that can listed as a 20mm (as it was the origianl use for them. the Original 40mm ammo cans are Shorter and a little narrower.

the "40mm" ones in the newest Tamiya accy set... aren't long enough.

I bought both UH-60L PE sets, internal and external, before the MH-60G sets were available.
Having the DAP and the Pave Hawk in my stash, I later Bought the MH-60G sets, too.
Thus I can advise you to get both MH sets, istead of the UH sets. Being the MH-60G (or HH-60G) a "SOF-oriented" helo it's detail is closer to the MH-60L than that of the "standard" Black Hawks (UH-60L).
You won't need all the parts, but they'll add some nice detail.

Very useful your info, guys!!!

Thank you.

Now I 've a clear idea about FRIES. Very comprehensive post, Gino.

Klaus, I had no news about PE of MH60. Now it's clear for me what I have to do (well, to purchase, at least )

Thanks, I'll notice you with my progress.

Now, talking about rangers I'm going to use Dragon 3011 "U.S. 101st Air Assault 'Screaming" Eagles'
http://hobbyeasy.com/en_US/prod/11083.html
I think paras gear is similar than rangers. Do you know something about that?

Thanks again and again.

DANI

In '93, Rangers used pretty much the same gear as any other US Army soldier. The only non-standard piece of gear they had was Ranger Body Armor (RBA). It was similar to the modern Interceptor Body Armor (IBA) that is currently worn. It was worn under their load bearing vest or suspenders and belt. The DML Delta Force Somalia '93 kit has torsos with RBA on them. You can achieve just about any pose you need by taking any of the older (ODS-era) DML figures and swapping out the torsos with ones from the Delta '93 set. The weapons in the Delta '93 set are more suited for Rangers too.



Good luck.

HEY- don't forget the SEALs!

Gino, are you sure about that?
I mean they are all wearing some kind of vests that cover the body armor; how can you tell?

Any how, besides this hair splitting, Gino is as usual spot on. Rangers were using ALICE gear over the RBA while "standard" army used the PASGT-vest.




Didn't rangers use the M-16A2? As far as I know the M-4 wasn't with spread in '93.

If you look closely, there is RBA or something like it under their Tac-vests. Thats what it looks like to me. Rangers were starting to get M4s in the early '90s. They were still using M16A2s as well. Either is correct.




Yes, the SEALs were in Somalia as well, but he is wanting to do a Rangers and Blackhawk dio.

Navy SEALs, AF PJ's, and Army SF were all there, but if you look on the bottom of the Delta Force box, I think it says that they're wearing RBA. BTW, the Rangers carried M-16A2's, some of them did have scopes on them. M-4's were mixed in, and Delta used CAR-15's (I think that's what's mentioned in Mark Bowden's Black Hawk Down)

http://www.bravo57.com/tfr.htm


HTH,
Austin

Mhh, gotta dig the book out again. It seems strange that the elite force was using the more obsolete weapon, but it could be; have to check.






Ok, ok. Majority wins: they are wearing RBA!
Saw it on the box yesterday night, too. I was just saying that it was hard to tell underneath the vests.

Pg.14"Howe swept the room with his CAR-15, a black futuristic-looking weapon with a pump-action shotgun attached to the bayonet lug in front."

Pg. 138, talking about the Ranger, Spc. Phipps, "He had his CAR-15" as part of 68 (i think that's razors edge), the CSAR bird for that day.

Pg. 140, Wilkinson, the PJ, "carrying a small medical pack and his CAR-15"

Pg. 194, "He handed Durant Gordon's weapon, a CAR-15 loaded and ready to fire."
you could cross check with In The Company of Heroes

Anyways, IIRC there was one Delta who wore a K-pot and carried a SAW (I forgot where I saw that though...). But it is entirely possible (and most likely) that there was a mix of CAR-15's and M-4's.

HTH,
Austin

Another explanation is that many of the old timers called M16A1/A2 Carbines and M4s CAR-15s when they first were issued. They are basically the same weapon since an M4 is a CAR-15 updated to M16A2 standards.




My guess is that what they are calling CAR-15s in the book were actually M4s.

CAR-15 Commando/XM-177


M16A1 Carbine


M4A1 Carbine (removable carrying handle)