As a recent returnee to the hobby I have availed myself of the considerable expertise here on numerous occasions. I now have a specific colour problem that I hope someone can help me with. After a few allied efforts I have decided to have a go at a Luftwaffe subject. I intend to build a FW 190 A5 circa 1943. I haven't decided on a specific aircraft yet but want to do the "green" low level camo seen on the Eastern front. Now here is the problem; an RLM 76/81/82 scheme has been suggested but whilst I do not profess any expertise in this area I have always thought that RLM 81 and 82 were late (at least late1944) war colours and are not appropriate.
My best uneducated guess would be an RLM 76/70/71 scheme as I imagine these colours would have been available,I'm just worried that I may be barking up the wrong tree!!
Here's hoping this all makes sense.

Hi Steven

those JG 54 camouflage colours were not Luftwaffe standard! I would suggest you do a google (or other) search for pix. There are a few colour shots available!

e.g.





see how different the same picture looks colourwise






just to show a few

in the end it is your own decision (on these field applied colours). I have eduards weekend edition and I will follow their advise, except the sandy wing top colour

HTH

best wishes

Steffen

Blimey, Thanks for the pics. They look like an explosion in a paint shop! It looks like they have slapped their own concoction over a previous,more standard scheme. Never get away with that in the R.A.F.
There goes another "racial" Stereotype!

Hi Steven

of course the a/c were delivered in a standard scheme (74/75/76) but then at the front the machines were repainted. Some pilots flew over the new air field and then the paint shop got some work. all colours that were available were used: Luftwaffe, Heer, Russian ... and mixed to colours that suit the environment .. in winter you have some white elements too ....

very bad for the modeller but essential then to prevent being recognized and bombed out. As I wrote above .. it is up to you to choose your colours ...

cheers

Steffen

Burnt the midnight oil researching last night. There seem to be two schools of thought.

1. The paint shops used non aircraft specific or even captured soviet paints,

2. They mixed their own from available stocks.

I don't know much about wartime aircraft finishes but I simply can't buy into the first option.In the case of Soviet paints they would not have known their composition. Also they would need to find a lot of paint and I understand that the retreating red army didn't like to leave an unburnt dog biscuit behind!
Colour mixing is something I do understand in my professional life.
All the green hues and sandy colour could be made by mixing no more than three standard RLM colours so that is what I shall do.
I just need to liberate a few egg cups from the kitchen and the experiments will begin!

Thanks again for your help.

Steve

Hi Steve

I do not think the two "schools" can really be separated. Here is a short (simplified) description how the a/c get to the front:

1. manufacturer: preferably; the intended paint job was to be applied here (best conditions to apply the paint and many colours available)

2. reserve deliveries unit (I am having a hard time to describe this; the a/c were flown to a depot not too far away from the front .. but also not too close): Also here could some changes in the paintjob occur .. I am not sure if the famous JG3 (Ostfront) and JG 5 (Nordfront) birds with originally desert colours were adapted in such delivery depots or the manufacturer, but here are also very good conditions.

3. Frontline: very meagre collection of colours (02, 66, 74, 75, 76, red corrosion protection.. maybe old stocks of some other plus captured stuff ... how would you mix a sandy colour from these? ... Il-2s e.g. had such sandy colour in some of their paint schemes)

when an aircraft being damaged there are also some possibilities for repainting

4. Feldwerft (see 3)

5. Instandsetzungseinheit: repair unit for more severely damaged a/c depending on the front situation colour supply could be like 3 or 2.

6. Industrieinstandsetzung: (very badly damaged a/c were brought to special production facilities of the manufacturers and rebuilt, so similar good supply of paint can be assumed here)

The colour adjustments by JG 54 were definitely done at the frontline! I do not think there is a problem in using the soviet colours which were captured in quantities at the soviet airfields or better aerodromes (= large, well equipped "airports"). Just thin it with fuel (gasoline/petrol) and airbrush them on (or paint with a brush or a broom) For fighters I would assume airbrushing .. OTOH winter white wash was applied by the other methods.

The retreat in the first years by the Soviet Army was fast and they had not much time for "burnt soil". They were leaving quite a lot of their own people behind so the option to burn everything was even less favorable ...

Just to think about: the Germans captured thousands of tons of weapons/war material intact .. do you thik the soviets would have taken the colours with them if they could take an aircraft, a gun or a truck ?

Hope that makes sense to you. This is all my own conclusions from reading "some" biographies, unit histories and more general works on airwar. So prove me wrong if you think this is all BS.

all the best

Steffen

Interesting project, Steven. However, I must admit that I also mostly belive in captured paints being used - maybe in combination with RLM colours.

Anyway, there are many options, so just go for it and keep us updated

Hello again

That is all very interesting and I don't doubt your historical accuracy at all.
What I was trying to do was create the colours from material that must have been available even at the front line.

I have made the sandy colour by mixing red(23) with a green I hope approximates 25 (but any lightish green would do) and then chucking in a bit of yellow (04). It looks good tested on the underside an old spitfire!

I have concocted a darker muddy green/brown even more simply by adding some red to good old RLM70. I haven't sprayed this yet - maybe this evening.

I'm sure the Russians did leave much materiel behind ,especially in the early months of their war but you must agree that a paint store burns awfully well!

I'm sure the Russians left stuff behind but a store of paints burns awfully well.

true, but still there was enough that the Germans captured

Honestly I would not pay that much attention to the mixing .... you can get the same colour using different base colours. Better try to get the end result convincing. There are a few processed colour pix on ebay by a NZ seller. Just have a look. Those may be a better starting point for the finish than the examples above. Always remember: the paints were mixed to fit the environment to hide the planes.

cheers

Steffen

Hi all
Ages ago I did a little experiment as above. Full text in Luft 46 Part 2 in the features.

Hope it helps

Cheers
Peter

Hi Peter
I've read your colour feature with great interest, it's very good. I haven't been as rigorous as you were but my results are very similar. Essentially, with very few starting colours you can create a wide range of non standard but "RLM like" colours.

This all stems from my initial feeling that when pilots said "paint my machine green" the ground crews did not start slapping captured Soviet paints or other materials of unknown properties and provenance onto their precious airframes, but rather would mix suitable colours from the RLM paints with which they were very familiar!

As modellers we don't really have to do this as we have hundreds of colours available to us. I was just trying to establish the principle, unaware that you had already done it!!

Cheers

Steve

Hi Steven

Well, I thought I had explained it thoroughly but obviously you do not get my point (I am only talking about JG 54 now)

These colours were applied in field condition in Staffel (12 a/c) or at maximum Gruppen (3 or 4 Staffeln) strength. The repair part of those units do not carry a lot paint with them through the russian steppe.Just enough to fix one or anther bullit hole or panel or rudder. If they were lucky they had a hardened meadow with some tents or a wooden house. .. of course the also used some russian airfields but those were mostly reserved for the heavier aircraft (bomber).

I am not totally sure, but lets assume the repainting job was not made on the small air fields but on a formerly Russian aerodrome maybe Kiew, Reval ..what you want. These surely had some larger paint stacks, but also much more units to serve. I do not think the chief there would be very happy if the fighter maint. crews take all his yellow and black to mix some green shade when there is enough russian green available (and red to achieve brown).

Edit Of course when there was no supply of proper Soviet colour there had to be another way. And if RLM 70 or 71 would fit the needs, then of course these would have been used .. there was no rule in this

One totally different thing is late war colours ... but that would lead too far away from your original question.

Please consult Merricks and Ullmanns books for further information ... still there will always be questions to remain.

hope I made point a little clearer.

all the best

Steffen

Hi again.

I think you are both right.
I think RLM stocks could have been mixed to get a close enough shade or eke out what RLM stocks they did have by including mixing AND pressing in to service anything they could lay their hands on to do the job, including captured stocks.

And that does not include the effect of thinners, official or agents pressed into service.
A new can of worms?
Schnapps is better drunk than used to thin a shade of green.

Cheers
Peter

Hi Peter

thanks for your input ,

Yes I just made an addendum to my recent post. This was war it was done what seemed necassary. I just do not think that there is a firm statement this was done this or that way. That's why I maybe overly accented the Soviet colours (which were not bad at all, as those were prewar stocks).

I think Occham's Razor is an universal tool. So IMO, it was used what was available fast and in sufficient quantities.

All the best

Steffen

Hi Steffen

Thanks again for your input, I think you have explained yourself very well! These wartime schemes (especially ones done "in the field" ) are ,when all is said and done, what make these subjects so interesting to do.
I,m away from modelling for three weeks or so (gotta earn a living) but will return eager and armed with my trusty Iwata asap.

Cheers

Steve

Afterthought - didn't the RAF slap their mediterranean camo on in theatre , albeit without the freedom of the Luftwaffe?
Yet another can of worms!

Steve

Hi All

Standard colours

just an example of freshly applied 74/75/76 .. of cours it is a museums restauration but the colours look very good to my eye





all the best

Steffen

Hi all

while searching for other stuff I found this article on hyperscale.

Green Fighters of the Eastern Front - JG 54 Colors in Russia

It supports Stevens idea of mixed RLM colours.

Still I really doubt this statement

"RLM marking paints were available immediately and in large amounts"

as already stated above (especially the large amounts part). Also I really doubt that the camo was altered for air operations. I have read many accounts that they were for hiding the aircraft (and by that the airfield) on the ground.

BUT Michael Ullman is very knowledgeable at RLM colours!

I am not sure how much he has to be credited for knowing unit history (this is no valuation, I just do not know) ... I do know Michael likes to hear/read his own words

FWIW

cheers

Steffen