Hi there all Mustang experts

I'm about to start a build of a RAF Mustang Mk I using the Accurate Miniatures Mk IA kit and a bunch of aftermarket goodies (mainly Ultracast). I've a couple of detail questions though (notwithstanding some excellent reference texts that don't seem to contain what I want to know).

First, does anyone know what type of seatbelts the early RAF Mustangs used - US-provided belts or RAF Sutton or Q-Type harnesses? I suspect the latter, but I don't know when the crossover between the Sutton and Q-Type harnesses was. (The aircraft I'm planning on modelling is Mustang Mk I AG522 SY-L of 400 Sqn RCAF - decals from an Aeromaster sheet which dates the scheme to 1942-43).

Second, since I can only find profiles of the above aircraft (no actual photos - any pointers towards a photo would be greatly appreciated!), I don't know what type of exhausts it was fitted with. Most early RAF Mustangs seem to have been fitted with either fishtail or tubular exhausts, and Ultracast make great versions of both. In the absence of any further info, I'll go with the fishtails, but it would be nice to know now, not a day after finishing the build as is traditionally the case (you know how it works!).

Thanks in anticipation,

Brad

No you won't.

Antoni

Many thanks! You're right, I won't - I guess I'll be ordering the tubular exhausts! Nice pic by the way - what's your source? I've got a good collection of references and done a few specific web searches for this aircraft, but without luck. The photo also reveals a couple of other interesting details - it seems that Aeromaster got the dimensions of the code letters, personal Panda emblem etc more or less right, and that the aircraft doesn't have the raised fairing around the lower front cowling guns that some early RAF Mustangs did (the Ultracast conversion I'll be using doesn't include the raised fairing option.)

So thanks once again, cheers Brad

Camouflage & Markings No 2 N.A. Mustang - published about 1969. Date July 1942. In Land Temperate scheme (Dark Earth/Dark Green/Sky) spinner DE. Yellow strip painted alonmg leading edges of the wing. No 12 inch chord-wise yellow band across the wings that was ordered 1st July 1942. This was a 613 Squadron Mustang (SY) not 400 Squadron (SP) and 613 Mustangs were still flying without the yellow bands as late as August 1942.

Part make a very good PE set for this kit by the way.

Ask an American expert, and he'll tell you that they carried American belts; ask an RAF expert and he'll say Sutton, since we know that P-47s had their harnesses replaced. Truth is, no-one knows for certain. One thing that is certain, though, is that the Sutton went throughout the war, right until 1946. This was confirmed, in a fairly recent Aeroplane Monthly, which had a March, 1945 photo of a Spitfire XIV, and a Sutton strap could be seen hanging over the cockpit sill.
Also, there was no such thing as a generic "Q" harness; I've no idea where this came from. The Spitfire (my apologies for taking this off topic, but I'm researching the Spitfire at the moment) had the following harnesses:- Sutton, Sutton K, Sutton QK, QS, ZB. The first three were all wartime and married to various seat mods, while the QS (which had the parachute box-type fitting) arrived in 1946, with the ZB being fitted to bubble-canopy types with fuselage fuel tanks.
Edgar

Antoni - thanks for the additional info on the airframe. I'll probably do the model without the yellow chord-wise wing bands, given that the photo dates from July 1942 when the bands had only been in place a few weeks, at most - I can probably chance it that the rest of the scheme was the same without the bands. The reason I don't want to do the bands is that I'm doing a dual early Mustang build - the other kit is the 1/48 AM A-36 in a Mediterranean OD over Neutral Gray scheme with (you guessed it) yellow chord-wise bands on the wings....But let me know if you think I'm making too much of a guess omitting the bands on the RAF machine. Thanks also for advice re the Part set - I'm going to order it from Hobby Easy.

Edgar - thanks for confirming the uncertainty (if that is the correct phrase to use!) about the seat belts. On the basis of what you've said, and for some variety from the A-36 (which will have US belts), I'll use an Eduard Sutton Harness with the kit seat, which is more than passable.

cheers

Brad

RAF Allison engined Mustangs, being the Mk.1, Mk.1A and Mk.II, modified to RAF operational status were fitted with:
Sutton Harness;
RAF Specification radios including IFF;
RAF P8 compass - on the cockpit floor just to the front and right of the control column hinge point on the cockpit floor;
initially US supplied gun sights, later changed to RAF gun sights from early 1943;
RAF supplied gun cameras - not really a detail you would see, but they were there;
then later RAF type F.24 cameras and camera control box.

Above is confirmed from RAF records and original period photographs.

Given the timeframe of the subject aircraft you are modelling, it would most likely not have the oblique F.24 reconnaissance camera fitted as at that stage the fitting was still being trialled and developed. Aircraft would have had a Type.TR9 HF radio set, so would have had antenna lead from top of antenna mast to top of fin.

Aviation Alliance also did decals in 1/48th for the subject aircraft. I think they got the sizing of the 9th Arm'd Div "Panda Head" badge just a tad too big as well when compared to photos.

Remember, main inner gear doors up, they did not 'droop' as on Merlin engined Mustangs, the Allison variants had a positive locking latch that kept the inner main gear doors locked up - they had to be manually unlatched to hang down for maintenance.

Regards,

Colin Ford
Canberra
Australia

No.268 Squadron Royal Air Force 1940-1946
Historian by Appointment
(by the surviving Squadron members)

The Mustang squadrons were hesitant about the application of the yellow chord-wise bands and some even delayed painting the yellow leading edge strips. The advantages and of the yellow strips and bands became apparent during the intense air battles between Mustangs and Bf 109s that took place during Operation Jubilee (Dieppe) in August 1942. The squadrons that had lagged behind quickly caught up but some squadrons still compromised by painting the chord-wise band in narrower widths that specified, nine inches or even six. When operation experience showed that the bands had become a recognition feature for German pilots they were ordered removed from all Mustangs from 2nd December 1942.

Colin and Antoni - thanks for the additional great info guys. The info on the radios and compass is very useful - along with the cockpit photos from Antoni, I now have a much better idea of what went where in these RAF machines, given that I have colour photos of a USAAF P-51 cockpit in Detail & Scale Pt. 1 to compare them with. The fact that they were fitted with a spade grip surprises me (I don't know why - it makes sense for a Brit-ordered aircraft), and will be another nice little point of difference in detail from the A-36.

Yes, I don't think SY-L would have had the oblique recce camera either, but I don't know if there is a port-side photo of the aircraft to prove this one way or the other.

I had remembered about the inner gear doors being up - but one thing I'm not sure about is the wheel well/inner gear door colours on these early Mustangs. I've seen some (possibly restored) machines with the well and doors painted interior green and/or zinc chromate, with a natural metal strip across the middle of the inner doors; I've also seen examples where the entire bay appears to be aluminium/natural metal. Anyone have any ideas?

Colin, I agree with you that the Panda-head badge on the Model Alliance sheet seems too big, compared to both the ref photo above that Antoni provided and the one that's with my Aeromaster sheet - but at least they provided two heads, one for each side, whereas Aeromaster only supply one, based on the available starboard view photo. Again, don't know which company got it right (and we may never know).

Now I just need to wait for my Ultracast and other goodies to arrive before I can really dive in...

thanks again, Brad

Brad,

I would be cautious about using the photos posted by Antoni as gospel about RAF style spade grips in RAF Mustangs. The photos posted are part of a sequence of photos done by NAA for the BPC. The aircraft photographed was fitted with the spade grip from a Harvard 1, a bit of clever marketing by showing what the RAF and Air Ministry types would recognise as a the standard control column top for a fighter. The Mustang Mk.1s, Mk.1As and Mk.IIs as supplied were fitted with the standard US style pistol grip top. A very, underline, very, limited number of early Mustang Mk.1 aircraft were modified at Squadron level to have a RAF style spade grip fitted. This was usually at the request of a senior pilot on the Squadron, such as the OC or a senior flight commander, to what was their usual allocated/personal aircraft This was because these pilots had spent their entire RAF career up to this time flying aircraft fitted with a spade grip and therefore it was a familiarity and piloting style type of preference. However, the greatest majority retained the US supplied pistol grip. By the time the later Mk.1s, Mk.1As and Mk.IIs came along, even those senior pilot's had dropped using the spade grip and stayed with the US supplied pistol grip which was the standard.

The yellow chordwise bands were already being removed by Squadrons before December 1942, some units started removing them from early November 1942. A couple of units even painted them in red rather than yellow.

The better quality photos of the subject aircraft would strongly suggest it was not fitted with the oblique camera. At this stage the "Mk.1 eyeball" was the primary reconnaissance tool for the pilots of these aircraft. It was not until early 1943 that significant numbers of aircraft in ACC Squadrons were fitted with the oblique camera mounts. In the earliest aircraft modified with the oblique camera they used the rather over engineered camera mount that featured a metal panel replacing the rear quarter window and what could best be described as a 'funnel' surrounding the camera lens.

The undercarriage bay like those of most Mustang kits is inaccurate in having the rear 'wall' follow the rear edge of the undercarriage bay. In fact the rear 'wall' was the wing spar which followed a straight line at the back of the undercarriage bay. A couple of resin aftermarket guys have done revised undercarriage bays for P-51B/C kits which could be adapted to get the proper bay layout. Others have gone down the path of removing the kit detail and replacing it with their own using plastic card stock to reproduce the rear wing spar and the internal stringers. Normally the rear spar would be zc with the rest of the bay sprayed in silver lacquer - that is based off interpretation of period photos and the original tech orders of that timeframe - not later wartime reprints which have confused the matter. Given the amount you do see through the remaining area of the gear doors, it makes it simpler to achieve this look on the Allison Mustangs versus the Merlin ones.

The other key thing is that the intake shape provided by AM for the P-51/Mk.1A kit, which you would use as the basis for a Mk.1 conversion as it has the proper narrow intake for that type, is that the ventral radiator intake is the shape of the later fixed type intake used on the A-36 and P-51A. The earlier Mustangs had a moveable front air intake that had a much 'squarer' profile in all aspects. It would take a bit of work with filler and plastic stock to create the proper shape, but 99% of those who would look at the finished kit would not realise it is the wrong shape as supplied by AM. The new Hobbycraft 1/32nd scale Mustang Mk.1A/P-51 has the same shape issues, but an aftermarket resin manufacturer is looking to fix that.

The Ultracast stuff is very good. However their early Mustang seat with moulded on harness as supplied currently has the US style harness moulded on. They are looking at doing a new version with the RAF Sutton Harness moulded on - I sent them the reference material a little while back.

Regards,

Hi Colin,

Welcome to Aeroscale!

And thank you (and Antoni as well) for providing such interesting informations about the Mustangs.

Jean-Luc

the following doesn't apply to the specific aircraft asked about in the original post, but for other info regarding mustang Is:

as for tubular or fishtail exhausts, it depends on your aircraft. my opinion is most had tubular exhaust stubs, some had the flared exhaust seen on American p-51s, and still others had the even more flared fishtail exhausts (only seen on British machines). Apparently most had the straight tubular exhausts. Here is an example with the fishtail exhaust though - and it is a mustange i, not a cannon armed Ia:



As for camo - not many british P-51As had the dark earth and dark green. Most of them had the ocean gray and dark green camo with medium sea gray undersides. the one oginally asked about in the first post and pictured in the second post is one of the few that did have the dark earth/dark green combo. The one above in my post is gray/green. Also note that the underside sky color on the aircraft with dark earth is going to be the american equivalent color, which is significantly different sky seen on spitfires, hurricanes, or other aircraft produced natively in the UK.

here is one with the american style flared exhaust:



I would guess that this is a dark earth/dark green/sky machine given the contrast of the top colors with the bottom.

I will not go into the detail as it would take more space than the forum is probably prepared to dedicate to replies to posts.

But:

All the Allison engined Mustangs delivered to the RAF in the UK, Mk.1, Mk.1A and Mk.II, were delivered from the factory in the US equivalents of the RAF early war temperate land scheme - US ANA equivalents of earth brown, dark green and their version of sky, which was a pale sky grey. Initial deliveries of the Mustang Mk.1 aircraft were accepted into RAF service in the US supplied scheme - primarily AG serialed aircraft. In keeping with the Fighter Command camouflage and markings in force at the time, the aircraft were soon repainted into the Day Fighter Scheme of Dark Green, Ocean Grey over Medium Sea Grey undersides, with RAF Sky spinner and rear fuselage id band, yellow wing leading edge stripe. In some cases this simply involved an overpaint of the earth brown with the grey as an interim measure. Given the initial shortage of supplies of Ocean Grey, Mixed Grey was used on many aircraft. By the time the late delivery Mustang Mk.1s were arriving in the UK, they were being repainted before entering service. By the time the Mk.1As and Mk.IIs were arriving, they were repainted after arrival in the UK before entering RAF service into a standardised scheme. Consider many of these aircraft sat in depots for up to six months after arrival in the UK before being accepted into service so they had plenty of time to repaint them properly. They used standard RAF paints for the repaint. The sometimes darker and glossy appearance of these paints is due to the practice of the groundcrews cleaning, polishing and waxing the aircraft paintwork to get less drag and better airspeed. According to the pilots they did get a measurable increase in airspeed showing on the indicator for the same revs and boost for an aircraft so prepared.

The tubular exhausts were short lived, did not sufficiently prevent exhaust glare, which was notable on dull or overcast days. The US supplied NAA factory fishtails were short lived, they cracked, leaked and were not good at suppressing exhaust glare. The RAF tried a couple of different variants of their own design fishtail exhausts until they finally settled on a design based on a fishtail exhaust they had developed for the Kittyhawk and which could be made in quantity by a foundry in the UK. These were then progressively adopted for use.

Rule No.1 applies, if possible, always use reference photographs of the aircraft you want to model to get the detail straight.

The Polish Squadron Mustang Mk.1 photographed is widely accepted as being an aircraft repainted in a dark green, mixed grey uppersurfaces over a darker than usual medium sea grey (again may be a mixed colour) undersurfaces, in rather shabby paint condition. Being an AM serialed aircraft it is from the later deliveries.

The definitive book on the Mustang in RAF service is still being researched and written, but it is coming. When it does finally get here, it will certainly set a lot of myths and misconceptions that have builtup over time to rest.

Regards,

Colin and Vance

Thanks for your great info and photos. I am really getting far more info out of my original post than I dreamed (which I suppose will give me no excuses not to make a perfect model....).

Colin - you mentioned the US ANA-equivalent colours for the very early Mustangs - you don't know the US Federal Standard reference numbers for their versions of earth brown, dark green and sky do you? You also mentioned "better quality photos" of SYL/AG522 - can you point me in the right direction? I'm particularly interested in details for weathering etc.

Finally - on the ventral radiator intake - I actually think AM has got it right vis-a-vis their Mk 1A and A-36 kits. I haven't got photos of the kit parts to post, but the Mk 1A intake I have matches exactly with what I can see in the photo Vance posted of the front-on view of the aircraft next to the tractor. AM's A-36 intake is subtly different - more squashed and with a downwards kink in the upper centre. But as you say, no one will really notice anyway....

Thanks again for all the great stuff. When my aftermarket gear arrives, I'll start a build-log....cheers Brad

Hi Brad,

There are extra photos of the subject aircraft and other aircraft of the same squadron taken at the same time. An Air Ministry PR unit visited the Squadron along with the General Officer Commanding the Army Division the Squadron was affiliated with. So they had a photographer along who took a number of photographs of Squadron aircraft including a couple of air to air photos. These are held in the collection of the Imperial War Museum and have been published in a couple of different books about the Mustang. I'll have to dig back through my library to find books that the extra photos appeared in. But as a starter have a look at Model Alliance "On Target Profiles - RAF & Commonwealth P-51 Mustangs" by Jon Freeman, Jon had acces to some pretty good original source material for this book. Also October 2008 edition of Model Airplane International, profiles by Richard J Caruana - check the credits for the 'assist' on this article. From memory, your subject aircraft was in pretty clean and new looking condition when photographed - we are talking about an aircraft being used for part of a GOC's inspection and Air Ministry "this is a new type in RAF service" type photos, so it and its counterparts looked pretty clean and fresh.

I’ve checked my references and confirmed that the Allison Mustangs as delivered to the RAF in the Temperate Land Scheme were painted in Du-Pont colours as follows:
Earth Brown - 71-009
Dark Green - 71-003
Sky Grey - 71-021

I did find somewhere a whilst back some generally well accepted equivalents for these colours using either Model Master or Humbrol enamels, which I used for my own build of a AM Mustang Mk.1A in original factory delivery specification and colour scheme. I’ll have to go digging back through my notes to identify them. The paint colours that I used did produce a very good scale representation of the US NAA factory colours.

The AM P-51/Mustang Mk.1A radiator intake is if reviewed in both front and side profiles, a bit too rounded and a bit too narrow when compared with the original. Some of the original and close up detail photos I have do really show the difference between the two intake types. If sticking with the AM supplied parts, you would need to ensure at the least to scribe in the panel lines on the underside of the radiator bath that represent the front hinged moving portion of the intake. I’ve been in discussion with some modellers in the US who have the Hobbycraft example in 1/32nd and they are of the opinion that they have used the A-36/P-51A fixed intake shape, not the proper Mustang Mk.1/P-51/Mustang Mk.1A intake shape. Again the underside of the radiator bath is missing the panel lines representing the front moving portion of the intake. At last count I've built close to a dozen of the AM kits, including a few using the Ultracast Mk.1 conversion, so I'm pretty familiar with that kit and its shape. Still have about another half dozen in the stash to build.

Is your plan to have this finished in time for ACTSMS Model Show in May??

Regards,

Colin

I wish I could have it finished for the ACTSMS show in May, but no chance I'm afraid - I'm the slowest builder in the world, and I'll also be off line for three weeks in Apr/early May on a WWI battlefield tour in France/Belgium (not that I'm complaining about that). I will be entering this - slightly off topic, but at least it flies (theoretically):



But if you are going to be at the ACT show, I wouldn't mind having a chat about things Mustang-related. In the meantime, thanks for the FS equivalent numbers, and the refs to the On Target pub and the Oct 08 MAI issue, which I have and must dig out.

Once I get my aftermarket goodies, I'll start an online build - hopefully!

cheers Brad

I found confirmation (good enough, for me, anyway) that the harness was a Sutton. In the RAF Museum library, they have a copy of the daily inspection schedule, for the Mustang 1/1a, and, under the harness, it orders that the the safety pin must be checked for distortion, or signs of cracking. I'm certain that this refers to the locking pin, which held the four straps together, before insertion of the retaining clip.
Edgar

Edgar, thanks for the confirmation. I've got a set of Eduard colour WW2 British belts on the way, which includes a Sutton Harness, so I think I'm good to go. I love the Eduard colour belts, they go together beautifully (if a bit on the nerve-racking side - so many tiny, tiny parts), take a wash nicely, and look great when finished. cheers Brad

OK, looks like I'm finally ready to get going. Lots of lovely Ultracast bits, and a very fine looking P-51A PE set by Part, have arrived over the past couple of days. Build log to follow, assuming I can drag myself away from the 1/48 Airfix Spit Vb I've started tinkering with (I'm sure I can make that engine detail set KMC designed for the Tamiya kit to fit, if I replace the KMC firewall with one from an ICM Spit VII, and I have some lovely Seafire decals from Aeromaster....You know how it goes...) cheers Brad