Hi all,
this is a well known photo of our Canadian allies over North Africa.

I am definitely having a go at this. I need to get a box out of the front room a.s.a.p! Having a go at such a weary air fame will be fun.
This scheme should be dark earth/mid.stone over azure blue. Fine so far. I seek your erudite opinions on some specific questions ( and anything else you may see).

Firstly does the dark earth appear to have been applied in two different shades (presumably at different times). I'm looking at the area infront of the windscreen.

Secondly what is the colour that was left behind the now partially over painted serial? I assume the first time the aircraft was repainted the whole serial would have been left visible on a little "panel" of original paint.

Finally,why are the patches over the MGs that colour? I am aware of the pit falls associated with these old colour photos but the roundel red looks okay to me

Any opinions or speculation much appreciated.

Enjoy what remains of your Easter.

Cheers

Steve

How funny, my dad, a WW2 marine veteran of the Pacific, bought me this poster twenty years ago in Asheville, North Carolina. I still have it tacked up over my model building table in the kitchen of my apartment; which serves as my makeshift model building area.

I think it is a most attractive poster and I agree that the colors mentioned of British Azure blue on bottom, Dark Earth, and British Middlestone on top are the correct colors. Age or just the type of film used has shifted these colors somewhat.

Incidently, Tamiya makes a 1/72 scale model of this aircraft with the markings of the machine in the foreground of the poster! I am looking forward to building this great example of the famous Spitfire! Don't know if any of this helps but thought I would add it. Enjoy your build. Russell.

Thanks Russell,
The more I look into this the more confusing it becomes. The caption says Spitfire Vbs which concurs with 417 sqdn. records. However what I can see of the serial seems to be BR4 maybe 1 then not visible. If I've got that correct the only matching batch is BR410 - BR435. The problem is that these are all PRIVTs , photo reconnaisance aircraft . Not so!
Am I reading the wrong numbers? Is there a Spitfire expert out there who can help this dumbo out?
Yikes
Steve

Hello,
while I am not an expert on Spitfires, I have a small observation, perhaps the darker area of Dark Earth in front of the windshield looks darker because of some oil or water spill (if my understanding is right there was a fuel tank in front of the cockpit - or was it the Hurricane?). Anyway darker spots can be seen elsewhere, right beneath the canopy and on the wings, they may be blotches of fuel, hydraulic fluid or rainwater making the surface look darker. Sometimes diesel fuel is used to clean vehicles, maybe airplanes too? Otherwise logics would say these surfaces are more exposed to the sun so they should be theoretically more faded.

This is a very attractive Spitfire indeed especially with the heavy wear at the leading edge joints, so I hope you will make a nice representation of this bird.

Thank you Gabor,
I'm not sure about that darker area infront of the windscreen. I'm wondering if it might be a previous colour showing through (unintentional preshading!!). It looks like a deliberate line.There is a similar anomaly running through the roundel on the fuselage. I agree that some of the other dark areas are certainly stains or,as behind the squadron code,rear of hood and wing root,patches.
I've consulted widly (well with wife and daughter number two) and have decided that the serial must be BR47?. This would be a Vc trop which seems more plausible despite the caption.. I'm afraid I am by no means a Spitfire expert!
Cheers
Steve

As for the gun port covers, there is nothing that says they have to be red - it was just some material doped over the hole to protect the gun from dust - no thick red paper available in africa? then use something else! but also keep in mind some colors (like red) might have been touched up in this photo, and the person doing so might not have known the gun covers might have been red too...

here are a couple other versions of the photo -note how the gun patches and the other reds look a lot more similar in these:





The patch of darker paint just in front of the windscreen - the color line the intersects the corner of the windscreen that seems to seperate the two different colors of dark earth is not a usual color border for a spitfire camo scheme. there is a fuel filler cap in the center top of that panel - so perhaps the above theory of some liquid (like fuel) staining the paint is not bad.

However - the color difference is completely lacking in the above copies of that photo - more evidence of someone touching up the photo originally posted? anyway, clearly the other versions of the photo confirm it is dark earth.

concerning the serial number - i would put very little confidence in using a "1" in the code, seeing as how the area has clearly been painted over. The accepted serial for that aircraft is BR487. I would suggest that, for some odd reason, the serial is painted over a patch of middle stone.

Also note that 417 squadron would have used "AN-V" on the other side as well, instead of "V-AN"

Hello Steven -

In addition, it appears that the AN and Roundell was also masked over at some point during one of it's visitis to the repair and paint shop.

I think it would be safe to say that if you use a variety of shades as well as do some weathering, you'll come up with a good replica.

North Africa was pretty tough on equipment there..!

Great stuff Vance,
We're really getting somewhere now!
BR487 sounds good to me. I think you are correct about the retouching of the photo. These old images can be a bit of a minefield. Thanks also for the info on the codes, I did a British tropical Spit. some time ago and I remember that having the two letters of the squadron code,on the port side, squeezed infront of the roundel too.
Cheers
Steve
PS I just dug out some old paper masks for the A scheme camo,only to find that this one is the mirror image (C scheme?) one. I do mean mirrored,the colours are not simply swapped! Second thoughts maybe that is B, anyway more interesting by the moment.

The front end is typical of a well used Spitfire. It was constantly sprayed with a film of oil leaking from the propeller pitch mechanism. Heat from the engine did the rest, baking the paint to a darker colour. In this example it appears that the Stone on the nose has been resprayed or touched up. There is overspray over the blue and the top cowling may be a replacement from another Spitfire. Other areas look like they have been touched up as well, particularly the leading edge of the starboard wing. It might be the perspective but the Stone seems to have been sprayed over the roundel and there is a patch of lighter blue on the roundel over a patch of darker Dark Earth. This looks like a repair to this area.

The square of Dark Earth behind the letter A at first glance looks like a previous letter has been painted out. I don’t think so. There is a tide mark along the base of the letter N. I think this area behind the A and N was cleaned up so the letters could be applied. Some abrasive may have been used especially if there were some other squadron’s codes that had to be removed.

Underneath could be Azure Blue or Light Mediterranean Blue.

Thanks Antoni,
I'm going with an azure lower surface because I reckon that that is the blue that someone has used to touch up that roundel. I too think that the mid stone has been resprayed in that area.
As for the area behind the unit code, the line of the dark earth colour that should run through the A has gone completely. That has either been stripped down to a layer of brighter mid stone or repainted. Obviously I'll have to try to replicate this with a different paint.
One of the reasons I want to do this aircraft is because of the anomalies in the scheme,they are obviously open to interpretation and everyones comments are most welcome and helpful.
Thanks again
Cheers
Steve

A couple of letteres from some old magazines.

Dear Neil,
I am writing as a result af the correspondence query about
desert colours far the Spitfire AN-V in the October issue af SAM.
First af all, the aircraft is a Mk Vb. You can clearly see the
rearward position of the cannon blister an the wing, and there is no.
cannon stub autbaard af the existing 20mm cannon. I believe the
serial to. be ER470, not BR470, which makes it in the middle of a
Castle Bromwich batch af Spitfire Vb (trop). I also. believe all the
Castle Bromwich Spitfires in desert colours used Azure undersides,
and my colour photos af AN-V seem to. confirm that colour.
The Spitfires built by Supermarine that were sprayed in desert
colours, used I understand, Sky Blue undersides - not pure Sky. This
was a colour that was similar to. Luftwaffe RLM 76. Incidentally, it
was also. used an many Fleet Air Arm aircraft up to. 1942, and after
including Seafires. The desert Spitfires built by Supermarine include
those in the AB batch (up to. AB 536), BP, BR and EN batches. Many
of these went to. Australia.
Once in the Middle East, many Spitfires were overhauled by the
Maintenance Unit at Abaukir, and, an being re-sprayed, the underside
colour used was Light Mediterranean Blue, which in reality, was quite
a dark grey-blue. Gleed's Spitfire, IR-G, was a good example of the
this re-spray. I do not think this was the colour used an AN-V, which
looks to be a much lighter shade.
I hope this goes part of the way to. clearing up a somewhat
confusing subject.
Les Hooton

Dear Neil,
I read with much interest Davide Di Odoorda's letter and Paul
Lucas' comments an the subject of Spitfire AN-V, in SAM Val 21/Na
8, and write to add a few of my own comments which might be of use
to. Mr. Di Odoorda.
I have a large and clear coloured edition af the photo shown on
page 110 of Roger Freeman's book 'The RAF af WW2 in Colour'. In
it, the variations in Dark Earth and Mid Stone hues due to. fading or
wear and tear, as well as the panel lines, cannon blisters etc., are
quite obvious. Having intently observed this photo an several
occasions, I have drawn my awn conclusions.
The Spitfire in question, and, as far as I can see, the others in flight
next to. her, are all fitted with the 'b' type wing and the related drum fed
Hispano 20mm cannon with recoil-reducer assembly an the
muzzle (covered with a close-fitting red rubber sheath!). This
important detail and the inelegant Vokes tropical filter make her,
without any doubt, a Spitfire Mk Vb (T).
AN-V could not have been BR470 as mentioned in Andrew
Thomas's original article far the fallowing reasons: The left edge of
the fourth digit and the tap of the fifth digit of the serial number peek
out from under the white A. The former looks like an 0 or a 6 whilst
the latter could be a 1, or a 2, ar a 3 which made me think that the
aircraft may have been BR401 or BR402 or BR403 or alternatively
BR461 ar BR462 ar BR463. But then, assuming the sources far
'Spitfire - The History' lists were complete and reliable, I had to.
discount the last three. BR461 arrived in North Africa in June 1943,
(several weeks after April 1943, when the photo was allegedly
taken), BR462 never served in Tunisia and was shipped to. Australia
and BR463 was struck off charge in January 1943, (before the
alleged date of the photo). We are then left with either the other
three, which are not recorded in those lists, or the mare probable
scenario. in which whatever painted the aircraft mistook or misheard
B far E! In this case the serial number could well have been ER461,
which is indeed recorded in 'Spitfire - The History' as being a Spitfire
Mk Vb (T), sent to. North Africa an 9 November 1942. In fact AN-W,
shown in the photo an the part side of AN-V, is MK Vb(T) serialled
ER???
Such errors or misinterpretations did occur .and a good example would be Prince Emmanuel Galitzine's early production Spitfire Mk IXc
which was inadvertently marked as BF273 instead af BS273. The
'BF' serial black had been in fact allocated to. Blenheims!
AN-V ware a camouflage mantle that was tatty, faded and noticeably
touched-up. The photo reveals several shades of Dark Earth and Mid
Stone, a large portion af Mediterranean Blue an the upper starboard
wing roundel where the original darker Roundel Blue had been warn
off, a large dull bare metal area at the root of the same wing near
the leading edge, Dark Earth gun-part patches, freshly applied Mid
Stone background rectangles under bath the serial number and the
N of the Squadron code letters (darker than the original Mid Stone) which
denotes a repainting of the serial and a substitution of code
letters - and various touch-ups aver panel lines etc. It also. reveals
that, where all the other Spitfires under surfaces are in Mediterranean
Blue (obviously too dark to. be Azure Blue), this very intriguing
aircraft's are in a non-purplish hue of blue" somewhat sharper,
brighter and lighter then the others (Deep Sky or possibly a mixed
shade concocted by the RAF MU at Abaukir).
What makes AN-V even mare interesting is her 'B' camouflage
scheme and the transposed upper colours, the Dark Earth being
where Mid Stone should have normally appeared and vice-versa. A
further paint of interest is the unusually bright, almost orangey-red of
the fin flash, and fuselage roundel of this aircraft and of all the
propeller spinners, which very distinctly contrasts with the standard
dull red af the other markings in the photo.
Could AN-V have been AX-V, a handed down aircraft from 1
Squadron SAAF?
Allowing far a certain amount af degeneration in the original
negative, conditions in which the photo was taken and colour
distortions due to. various reasons during processing and printing, we
can nevertheless safely conclude from the above that there are in the
photo two. shades of red, at least two. hues of the undersurfaces
colour and as many tinges of Mid Stone and Dark Earth.
From the modelling paint of view, a most interesting Spitfire
indeed!
Vasko Barbic

Thanks everyone for all the info. I'm getting close to getting some paint on this model and one comment;

" I would suggest that, for some odd reason, the serial is painted over a patch of middle stone"

has really got me thinking.Is it possible that at some RESPRAY the two top colours were transposed (the transposition suggested above). I mean that dark earth was sprayed over mid stone and vice versa. The serial numbers would presumably have been masked to prevent having to reapply them. A picture of the port side would help but I haven't found one of this aircraft. I sort of posed this question on Britmodeller ( couldn't get on here on Monday) but noone was too sure so I thought I'd ask you lot!
I'm going with an azure blue underside despite some suggestions that it may be a lighter blue!

Cheers

Steve

Slightly surprising that no-one seems to have considered the possibility that there has been some (combat?) damage, and subsequent repairs to the airframe. The patch of slightly darker colour, at the rear of the roundel, plus the evidently hurried retouching of the roundel in Azure (rather than roundel) blue, and the fact that the aileron is a replacement, from an A-scheme camouflaged aircraft, all points to some sort of damage, to me. The engine side cover also appears to be from an A-scheme a/c, maybe even the intake fairing, as well, since the u/s of the rear fuselage has no hint of a similar shade of blue.
Spitfires incorporated an additional plate of thicker aluminium over the top of the fuel tanks, to act as a sort of "deflective" armour, without adding much weight. If this Spitfire has been modified (or had the panel replaced,) the necessary painting would be of a different hue. At least one Squadron are reputed to have said that their red spinners were not painted roundel red, but another (locally sourced?) shade.
The idea that the "BR" is a mistake for "ER" is interesting, but the ER4-- range didn't start until September 1942, and that was two months after over-wing strakes were beginning to be fitted, as a wing-strengthening mod, to VAs & VBs; no such strakes are visible on AN-V. As Vasko said, the letters have all the appearance of being hastily applied over a repainted area. Also, intriguingly, the demarcation, between the sand and brown, in that area, has been brought down further than it should; normally the line ran almost in a straight line from the l/e of the tailplane to the rearmost point of the wingroot fairing. This leaves you with the possibility that the whole serial no. has been "got at."
The fabric patches were not "doped on"; they were self-adhesive (like sticking plasters,) and coated with clear dope (you can see the faint area around the patch nearest the camera.) It's likely that they were plain fabric, and coloured, to suit, in theatre, since, in the photo of WR-D, it's clear that those were blue.
Edgar

Thanks for your timely reply Edgar. I'm hoping to get the camo marked out today and I hadn't spotted that aileron!!
It certainly is a hotch-potch. I think you are correct that the starboard wing has been fairly extensively repaired. With no evidence to the contrary I'm going to do the port side assuming all parts match and take a wild punt at the serial. I'm not convinced that BR487 is correct but I reckon that it is my best bet as you seem to have discredited my former favourite,the BR/ER mix up.
When you say that the serial may have been "got at" do you mean it may have been altered. Surely that would defeat the object of applying it in the first place?
I think I'll pick something a little more "standard" next time although this one has certainly been good fun (so far)
Cheers
Steve (definitely not a Spitfire expert)
Duh - being thick. I think you mean that the serial would originally have been on the lighter colour and was masked when the line of the darker colour was lowered leaving it on it a little patch of the lighter colour.

The whole thing is a sort of mongrel, which leads me to ask if it was made up from parts scavenged from other airframes. The fact that the A/B camouflage system was deleted from January 1941, plus the lack of over-wing strakes, makes this one very early, but the bulbous headrest wasn't deleted until July 1942, and the "Type C1" fuselage roundel was after May,1942, as well. The line of that "dip" in the line of camouflage, plus the line running down to the 4, is very reminiscent of the dimensions of the sky band, so do we have an airframe originally painted for home use, then whipped off to the Med, to have all sorts of indignities inflicted on its original scheme? The Squadron flew Vbs & Vcs side-by-side from late 1942, until September 1943, and, knowing the jiggery-pokery that Aboukir (for instance) were famous, I wouldn't rule out any possibility.
Edgar

Gentlemen thanks for all your help. Still WIP (waiting for Codes,Serial, Klear ,decals etc) but I finally chucked some paint at it.
Sorry about Sh*te photo - photographers are definitely not us!


Cheers and thanks again
Steve