I'm looking at the ME109 kits on my stash and have come up with some painting questions regarding them.

1) Was the interior colour for the earlier E and F models RLM 02 or RLM 66?

2) On Italeri's 1/72 109F I can't match the FS numbers in the painting guide to any RLM numbers. I want to do the marking options for the F2 of JG26 in Dec 1941 (I suspect it might just be Galland's plane). Would this be in RLM 70, RLM 71 and RLM 65? Or any other colours?

3) I have Hartmann's G14 with the topsides overall white. Would this be a thin white covering over the normal camou, (I guess it would have been RLM74/RLM75) or would it have been a pretty solid white covering with no original camou showing through?

thanks
Mike

Welcome to the Luftwaffe!

1 I'd do an E in RLM02 unlees I had solid evidence to the contrary.That is not hard and fast,more of a balance of probabilities. I'd do an F in RLM66.

2 I'll get back to you but certainly not 70/71 over 65, that was long gone. Without looking I'd say 74/74 over 76 is more likely.

3 White winter camouflage over the standard scheme as you suggest. This late I'm again not sure without looking it up. It may have featured some late war colours.

Cheers
Steve

I have had a quick look at Hartmann's aircraft. The white washed machine is apparently one he flew whilst briefly leading I/JG53.
I'd go with 74/75/76 under the white wash.
Does the decal sheet have a red heart and his wife's nick name "Usch" on it? I bet it hasn't got a staffel badge!
Cheers
Steve

Luftwaffe cockpit colours changed over the years. Panels went from RLM 41 to 66. I can not recall the exact date in which they did, so to paint an Emile it would be 41/02. For the Freidrick the panel would be 66 and the interior 02. It was not until late 43/early 44 did the cockpit go all 66. Sorry for not giving exact dates. So to paint the 'F' you can safely do 66/02. As with most luftwaffe a/c when it went for repairs it was updated to the latest mandate.

Thanks for the answers.
It has got the red heart badge, not sure about the staffel badge, what does it look like?

thanks
Mike

Sorry but that is simply not true. There is evidence from crashed enemy aircraft photographs of the presence of a dark colour,presumably RLM66 in Bf109s in 1940/41. The colour 66 is a pre-war colour evidenced in IIRC Dornier documents turned up by Lynn Ritger recently.
Check the recovered Ju88 being restored here.
http://www.ju88.net/
It first flew in January 1940 and the interior is definitely in RLM66. Infact Guttorm and his team report that they found no RLM02 in the interior.
The firm line between the two schemes has been propagated over the years by modellers looking for an easy answer. As with most things Luftwaffe it simply doesn't exist!
Cheers
Steve

I almost forgot to answer your question Mike. On the cowl of that aircraft there was a 7.Staffel badge. I can't find a picture but I have a note I made of it.
It was a black shield with a scythe striking a red star and the word "sense" underneath. I'll try to find that picture,the trouble is it's not on my H.D. but presumably in a book.....somewhere lol.

I'd like to give an example of how confusing it can be deciding colours late in the war.

August 15, 1944
Sammelmitteilung Nr. 2 officially discontinued RLM74

October 1944
Oberflächenschutzliste 8 Os 109K. Released by Messerschmitt and approved by the RLM, designating the 74/75/76 camouflage scheme to be applied to the Bf 109K

See what I mean!!!!

Cheers
Steve

Try this it may help.

http://www.swannysmodels.com/Painting.html

Martin

The problem is that,no matter what RLM documents may say,there is plenty of evidence both in photographs and artefacts to the contrary. If we took the documents as gospel there would have been no grey Bf109s flying in 1940,only standard 71/02/65 schemes. There is a wealth of evidence to support various grey schemes.
Whether we like it or not that Ju88,first flown in January 1940 and lost a mere four months later has an RLM66 interior.
To see contradictory documentation you have only to see my post above. Messerschmitt are calling for an RLM74 on the Bf109K more than two months after that finish was "officially" discontinued. The K never got RLM74 on it as far as we know (it got all sorts of other things including some grey colours which are open to debate!) but it was still stipulated in the documentation.
These things are simply not black and white.I understand why model makers would seek nice simple delineations between camouflage schemes and markings as it would make it very much easier to make accurate representations of various aircraft. Unfortunately it is not as easy as that. On the other hand it is far more interesting.

Cheers
Steve

Thanks again guys.

I have saved the painting instructions to my favourites and will use it as a 'general' guide but accept there may have been variations due to various changing circumstances in the war.
I guess you could say in some things its hard to prove either way, so if you end up painting something the 'wrong' colour - can someone prove 100% that its wrong?
Regards the staffel badge, no it is not there at all!

thanks
Mike

Quite right Mike,in the end it's your model and you should paint it as you like. We can only really make a best guess unless we are lucky enough to have a really good reference photograph or reliable description to hand! Noone can say that you are right or wrong without the same! Infact,very often,there is no right and wrong!.
Good luck with the model.
Cheers
Steve

Check out my finished 1/72 109G-10 in the 109 campaign thread. It's oob and I know the kit has a few issues!

thanks
Mike

Hi Michael

Just to try and help on your first question there.
In my opinion Steve's answer is the most likely to be correct.
Luftwaffe cockpit basic colour was 02 untill April/ May 1941. Only then RLM 66 became the overall colour, leaping from the (until then) instrument panel compliance colour.
But again, exceptions to this rule are bound to be documented, given the ecletic sub-assembly manufacter chain plus paint stock issues going on in late war Germany...
Cheers

thanks for the useful info - i have jsut started my trumpeter E-3 - it gives a mixture of 66 and 02 for the interior colour - i have done mine as 66 - hopefuly it is right

for the exterior they have RLM 70/71/65 i am doing Joseph priller yellow 1 - the 65 looks very blue and i am thinking that it is more likely to be 76 - i am using Xtracrylix RLM 65 and maybe i just need to tone it down?

.. yes I always feel that 65 looks 'too' blue - and always end up toning it down...