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World War II
Discuss WWII and the era directly before and after the war from 1935-1949.
Hosted by Rowan Baylis
BIG Fortress announced by Wingscale
robot_
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Posted: Friday, December 03, 2010 - 07:08 PM UTC
1/32 Fliying Fortress http://store.spruebrothers.com/articles/WingScaleB-17.htm

Pretty big! If I was building something that large, I think I would want it to be a flying model.
Holdfast
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Posted: Saturday, December 04, 2010 - 03:10 AM UTC
If I was building something that big I'd need a new house, so be it We just need a lancaster now
05Sultan
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Posted: Saturday, December 04, 2010 - 06:07 AM UTC
HUMONGUSSSSSS!!!! have to get this late next year! I'm in for a B-25 and want Revell's He-111 in the spring! Looks reeeeeealy cool in those shots.
Cheers Martin!
Rick
AndreasBeck
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Posted: Saturday, December 04, 2010 - 06:43 AM UTC
OK, IŽll buy one, .....but only if the lesson is lerned: Please, give us REALISTIC surface structures, in this case this means overlapping panels and rivets. It CANNOT be that difficult in this scale!
Cheers
Andreas Beck
GastonMarty
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Posted: Saturday, December 04, 2010 - 01:35 PM UTC

I think (hope?) a kit like this will make all the enthusiastic 1/32 scale modelers realize they have all been led astray by the revival of 1/32 scale about ten years ago... This, it seems to me, started in earnest (from what I can remember) with the Tamiya 1/32 scale A6M5 Zero in 1999... Truly a "seminal" kit I realize now...

This B-17 kit has a fuselage LENGTH of slightly over two feet, meaning the shelves for it will have to be very close to that deep, or it's a ceiling hanger, or it has to occupy an entire table in a room... Half or a quater of a small room in other words...

People will then hopefully realize this scale is strictly for fighters, or barely above that in size, and lacks any real versatility... This is exactly why I think it should not have been so forcefully revived, or popular, in the first place, but what do I know...

I hope many of these huge B-17 models are built, because I think after having a house encumbered for a few years with this annoying monstrosity, many modelers will have second thoughts about how much fun that great idea is... Hopefully this will hurt 1/32 scale in the long run enough that the focus will come back to 1/48th, and we will finally emerge from the benign neglect that TOTS has suffered from for at least 10 years, and more like 30 for anything really "big"... (Unless you don't consider malformed kits like the AZ models Ki-48 "neglect"...)

The annoying thing is that many new 1/48th releases are desperately inferior to 1/32 in quality and accuracy, even up to the supposedly high level of the tubular-cowled Eduard FW-190As (or the narrow-canopied AM Avengers), and even when they are not as badly made as that, they are very often of completely obscure oddball subjects, provided they do not exceed much the size of a fighter (because not exceeding a modest size is VERY important in 1/48th you see: The market can't bear anything too big: Too risky an investment... Gosh; the cost of tooling; the lack of space in customer's houses you know... Roll eyes...).

It's especially annoying to see this when you have been hearing for decades that the reason big 1/48th WWII models were so rare was that the marketplace could'nt bear such big kits... Sure we have had a few of those in 1/48th in the past 10-12 years: A poorly done FW-200, an even far worse B-25, and a few not very sexy transports or flotplanes like the Ju-52, Catalina and the way overpriced C-47... For decency sakes, let's only briefly mention the gut-wrenching FM Halifax or the inaccurate (fuselage depth) He-177... Hem...

Even Mr Tamiya weighted in on this at Nuremberg in 2008, and said openly on video that such big kits could not be profitably made anymore... "Tooling is just too expensive" were his actual words...

All of a sudden when it comes to 1/32, the "market rules" don't apply anymore... Maybe because people's appetite for pointless novelty really has no rules...

So while I am still waiting, for a third consecutive decade, on a non-egg plane-like 1/48th B-24 Liberator, a neatly buildable 1/48th B-29, or a 1/48th C-46 Commando, Il-4, C-54, H8K "Emily", Ki-67 Peggy, Stirling, Sunderland, SB-2, TU-2, Ki-21 Sally or Coronado, I just hope that the fans of 1/32 scale will now experience fully the adage: "Be careful what you wish for"...

Gaston





warreni
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Posted: Saturday, December 04, 2010 - 03:00 PM UTC
Erm, I think 1/48 is a useless scale and love 1/32. My opinion. But a 1/32 B-17 is over the odds for me. Ju-88, He-111 are about my limit. There is another method for displaying large aircraft which not many people think of and that is to hang them on the wall like a painting. All you need is a couple of small hooks and they hang from their undercarriage.

I stick with 1/72 for large aircraft, and even that can be very large with the 1/72 Tu160 being a good example.

Why does the box have to be 2 feet long? All you need to do is split the fuselage on a panel line (which shouldn't be too hard with a B-17 and you can shorten the fuseleage heaps. The main problem will be the wings and how heavy they are over their span. Hope they include some spars in the kit.
viper29_ca
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Posted: Saturday, December 04, 2010 - 03:54 PM UTC

Quoted Text


I think (hope?) a kit like this will make all the enthusiastic 1/32 scale modelers realize they have all been led astray by the revival of 1/32 scale about ten years ago... This, it seems to me, started in earnest (from what I can remember) with the Tamiya 1/32 scale A6M5 Zero in 1999... Truly a "seminal" kit I realize now...

This B-17 kit has a fuselage LENGTH of slightly over two feet, meaning the shelves for it will have to be very close to that deep, or it's a ceiling hanger, or it has to occupy an entire table in a room... Half or a quater of a small room in other words...

People will then hopefully realize this scale is strictly for fighters, or barely above that in size, and lacks any real versatility... This is exactly why I think it should not have been so forcefully revived, or popular, in the first place, but what do I know...

I hope many of these huge B-17 models are built, because I think after having a house encumbered for a few years with this annoying monstrosity, many modelers will have second thoughts about how much fun that great idea is... Hopefully this will hurt 1/32 scale in the long run enough that the focus will come back to 1/48th, and we will finally emerge from the benign neglect that TOTS has suffered from for at least 10 years, and more like 30 for anything really "big"... (Unless you don't consider malformed kits like the AZ models Ki-48 "neglect"...)

The annoying thing is that many new 1/48th releases are desperately inferior to 1/32 in quality and accuracy, even up to the supposedly high level of the tubular-cowled Eduard FW-190As (or the narrow-canopied AM Avengers), and even when they are not as badly made as that, they are very often of completely obscure oddball subjects, provided they do not exceed much the size of a fighter (because not exceeding a modest size is VERY important in 1/48th you see: The market can't bear anything too big: Too risky an investment... Gosh; the cost of tooling; the lack of space in customer's houses you know... Roll eyes...).

It's especially annoying to see this when you have been hearing for decades that the reason big 1/48th WWII models were so rare was that the marketplace could'nt bear such big kits... Sure we have had a few of those in 1/48th in the past 10-12 years: A poorly done FW-200, an even far worse B-25, and a few not very sexy transports or flotplanes like the Ju-52, Catalina and the way overpriced C-47... For decency sakes, let's only briefly mention the gut-wrenching FM Halifax or the inaccurate (fuselage depth) He-177... Hem...

Even Mr Tamiya weighted in on this at Nuremberg in 2008, and said openly on video that such big kits could not be profitably made anymore... "Tooling is just too expensive" were his actual words...

All of a sudden when it comes to 1/32, the "market rules" don't apply anymore... Maybe because people's appetite for pointless novelty really has no rules...

So while I am still waiting, for a third consecutive decade, on a non-egg plane-like 1/48th B-24 Liberator, a neatly buildable 1/48th B-29, or a 1/48th C-46 Commando, Il-4, C-54, H8K "Emily", Ki-67 Peggy, Stirling, Sunderland, SB-2, TU-2, Ki-21 Sally or Coronado, I just hope that the fans of 1/32 scale will now experience fully the adage: "Be careful what you wish for"...

Gaston




Why not build them? With the exception of the 1/48 B-24, and B-29, most of those aircraft you mentioned would probably have less sales if they were produced in 1/48, then this 1/32 B-17, which is arguable one of the most popular aircraft of WWII.

When it comes right down to it...other than the wingspan, the length of the fuselage isn't much different than an F-14, and we have multiples of those in 1/32, we even have a 1/24 Mosquito, which has sold well, and has about the same fuselage length as the 1/32 B-17. Yes I know the wingspan would be much larger on the B-17....but we can't help that.

The one thing that Wingscale is doing smart is only producing a limited number of kits, and not mass producing the crap out of them, and at the same time keeping the price of them in a sane range. I have heard alot of complaints of the price of the B-25s, but I just don't understand why....I don't think $125-$130 for them is that bad, when you consider that a Hassy 1/32 Bf-109 is in the $80 range, or a Tamiya 1/32 Spitfire in the $150 range. Seems to me that $130 for a 1/32 B-25 is a steal at that price. Even if the B-17 comes in at $225-$250, while alot of money, looking at the pictures of the prototype, it looks like it will be worth every penny. Most Trumpeter 1/32 aircraft are going for that kind of money, and they don't have any detail on the inside of the fuselage....cockpit and gear bays and that is it for your $225.....the B-17 would have an entirely detailed interior....has to have, otherwise what is the point?? And all for $225-$250? Again, sounds like a steal to me.

It wouldn't surprise me to see them do other variants of the B-17 if this one sells well enough...I would think an F for sure. Then we can see if we can talk them into a 1/32 Lanc!!!
AussieReg
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Posted: Saturday, December 04, 2010 - 06:30 PM UTC

Quoted Text

It wouldn't surprise me to see them do other variants of the B-17 if this one sells well enough...I would think an F for sure. Then we can see if we can talk them into a 1/32 Lanc!!!



Now don't go distracting them Scott, I want my P-61 in thirty-tooth scale !!
bill_c
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Posted: Monday, December 06, 2010 - 07:01 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I hope many of these huge B-17 models are built, because I think after having a house encumbered for a few years with this annoying monstrosity, many modelers will have second thoughts about how much fun that great idea is... Hopefully this will hurt 1/32 scale in the long run enough that the focus will come back to 1/48th.


Why? Because it's your scale?

For many of us, Thirty-Two is a revelation, both in the amount of detail and the ease of building it. Storage? Who cares? I put my 1/48th Liberator out on the trash pile last week because I was tired of it (one of the first kits I built when I came back to the hobby and I didn't know then about re-scribing raised panel lines). It was carted away by someone before the trash men arrived. I build 'em for me and my enjoyment, who cares what happens to them?

This one would be a challenge, but imagine the amount of detailing possible?

Gaston, I don't mean this in a harsh way, but your comments made me laugh out loud. Like many modelers, I love the build birds and build nothing else anymore.
badwolf
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Posted: Tuesday, December 07, 2010 - 03:27 AM UTC
I'M abit slow off the mark with one, a 1/32 nd Fortress from Wingnuts, so what happening to the WW1 kits they were promising! or are they breaking into other era's.
I day or so ago i was thinking, as i am building a 21st Century and a Revell JU 87Bside by side, and thought Revell will be releasing the Arado 196 and at some point next year their HE111, got me thinking what i would like next, have loads of 1/72 and 1/48 th stuff but getting on a bit now the eyes are not what they used to be, so doing more 1/32nd kits that i can afford,
So Revell i would like the following please!
FW 189,
FW154,
HE219,
Henschell129
These aircraft come out at between 19-23" wingspan in1/32nd, so would fit most peoples rooms,shelves or what have you, and if you can knock them out at an affordable price, i will have two of each, now will have to go awy and think of Allied aircraft i want.
badwolf
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Posted: Tuesday, December 07, 2010 - 03:29 AM UTC
I said my eyes are playing up, when i first read it and looked at the link, i thought Windnuts! its Windscale you dummy!
05Sultan
#037
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Posted: Tuesday, December 07, 2010 - 04:35 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I said my eyes are playing up, when i first read it and looked at the link, i thought Windnuts! its Windscale you dummy!



uuuhm 'Wing Scale". no prob,it's why we like 1/32
OK, so I hang it from ceiling or on wall or stand off from wall on peg or stand off on peg from floor base.
THAT BUILD WILL BE HELLAH AWESOME LOOKING!!!!!!
Even to people who don't know squat about planes or history or scale modeling. They will talk about it and probably remember it........
Cheers!
Rick
Holdfast
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Posted: Tuesday, December 07, 2010 - 09:24 AM UTC
Like I said, I don't see the size as a problem; I'll just buy a bigger house Roll on the 1/32 B-24, Lancaster and above all the Whirlwind and, if Airfix don't do it a Mosquito I'm glad that I've moved up to 1/32 scale, the larger scales suite paint masks better. My B-17 will be done in the markings of "A-Bit-O-Lace" all markings will be painted on. I can't wait.
Merlin
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Posted: Tuesday, December 07, 2010 - 12:05 PM UTC
Hi there

It does look great - but I can't help but agree with Andreas about the missed opportunity to represent the overlapped skinning.

I have to admit I don't quite understand where Gaston is coming from on this one. While the Fort will be too big for me, it's only about 4" bigger in each dimension than his 1:48 Monogram B-29 which he's shown us under construction. That's always defeated my available workspace too, so it's sat in my Stash for years, but I live in hope!

All the best

Rowan
GastonMarty
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Posted: Tuesday, December 07, 2010 - 01:38 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Hi there

It does look great - but I can't help but agree with Andreas about the missed opportunity to represent the overlapped skinning.

I have to admit I don't quite understand where Gaston is coming from on this one. While the Fort will be too big for me, it's only about 4" bigger in each dimension than his 1:48 Monogram B-29 which he's shown us under construction. That's always defeated my available workspace too, so it's sat in my Stash for years, but I live in hope!

All the best

Rowan



-Yes but when you get to these sizes, every extra inch counts. Also, the B-29 earns its place by being the largest and practically alone in its size range for WWII, besides a very few floatplanes.

For the B-17G there are plenty of WWII subjects in that size range, so in 1/32 you are forfeiting any significantly varied collection of four engine aircrafts by going to 1/32... In addition, each of the matching scale fighters also now take up a lot more room, especially the twins...

It is true 1/32 may be more in line with people's actual building rate, but you really have to see a 1/32 scale Thunderchief (same lenght as the B-17), to really appreciate what a modeling dead end this is...

It used to be that the practicality of the big four engine 1/48th scale aircrafts was routinely questioned, and everyone agreed this was slightly beyond the absolute upper end of what was acceptable, and that 1/72 was far more practical for these subjects...

Even the 1/72 B-36 was viewed as an impractical loft insulation that would mostly never get built, and rarely was...

1/72 scale widebody airliners are nearly non-existent, as airliner modelers are clearly a practical bunch...

Also a 1/32 B-29 defies the imagination, and will probably lead to a sizeable increase in the divorce rate if the husband modeler attempts it...

I would be siding with their spouses on this one...

Gaston



robot_
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Posted: Wednesday, December 08, 2010 - 02:30 AM UTC

Quoted Text

It does look great - but I can't help but agree with Andreas about the missed opportunity to represent the overlapped skinning.



Don't worry about the surface detail: Martin, the owner and driving force behind WingScale, has posted on Large Scale Planes explaining that this is a hand-made prototype, not a resin prototype from CAD data, and certainly not from a test shot. I guess it was made to highlight areas that are wrong in the plans they are using, or areas where the plans cannot describe the curves accurately, so they know what to change in their CAD models. Also, it is good publicity, and gets people talking about them, as well as testing the waters.

Martin is still debating whether to use the indented rivets and engraved panel lines (as he chose for the B-25) or to use raised rivets and overlapping panels.
bill_c
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Posted: Thursday, December 09, 2010 - 06:34 AM UTC

Quoted Text

It is true 1/32 may be more in line with people's actual building rate, but you really have to see a 1/32 scale Thunderchief (same lenght as the B-17), to really appreciate what a modeling dead end this is...


Dead end? It would seem kit makers are just beginning to tap into this market. Build bigger houses! I am eagerly awaiting the Thirty-Two Arado and He-111 from Revell, as well as the Fokker D-7 from Wingnut Wings. Would build more 1/32nd kits except for the price.

They're TOTALLY impractical-- just like the 1/72nd U-boat, Gato-class sub and Flower-class corvette kits in my stash.

You know the old joke: "My wife told me if I bought one more 1/32nd scale aircraft model, she'd leave me. I'm sure gonna miss her!"
calvin2000
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Posted: Thursday, December 09, 2010 - 08:02 AM UTC
I want one.
Dont care about the size or cost (well not a whole lot ) And i want the B-25 also so now all that is left to do is save up a small fortune oh well nothing better to do..
drabslab
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Posted: Friday, December 10, 2010 - 04:35 AM UTC
definitely an impressive kit but as it is not 1/48 or 1/35 I will nevr have it.

A pity though :-(
lampie
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Posted: Friday, December 10, 2010 - 06:53 AM UTC
It'll make one helluva "Assembly Ship" project. Snazzy paint job and some coloured LED's to replicate the lights a lot of them were fitted with!
woltersk
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Posted: Friday, December 10, 2010 - 09:38 AM UTC

Quoted Text


They're TOTALLY impractical-- just like the 1/72nd U-boat, Gato-class sub and Flower-class corvette kits in my stash.



Bill,
This may not be in your stash, but don't forget the TOTALLY impractical 1/35th scale Dora railray gun. As an armor builder when I first heard about it I thought "Not for me, but TO EACH HIS OWN."

Which is the way it should be in this hobby. Demand and profits will drive what the manufacturers produce.

Keith
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Posted: Friday, December 10, 2010 - 07:49 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text


They're TOTALLY impractical-- just like the 1/72nd U-boat, Gato-class sub and Flower-class corvette kits in my stash.



Bill,
This may not be in your stash, but don't forget the TOTALLY impractical 1/35th scale Dora railray gun. As an armor builder when I first heard about it I thought "Not for me, but TO EACH HIS OWN."

Which is the way it should be in this hobby. Demand and profits will drive what the manufacturers produce.

Keith



Of course, I agree people are free to do whatever they want. But that doesn't mean that what they want is necessarily good for the hobby in the long run, or even good for them in particular...

At my local club, I notice most of the built aircraft models are still 1/72, with 1/48th fairly far behind, about even or less with 1/144 (this has quite a few fans in our club). I don't have the slightest issue with these smaller scales, even if I would be very unlikely to build in them.

I have seen at the club about 3 notable 1/32 scale WWII models built in all of 4 years, admittedly all among the best models I have seen in person there: A Trumpeteer Dauntless, a Hasegawa P-47D and the new Tamiya A6M2 Zero...

I have seen at least 10X that amount of 1/32 scale kits brought, unbuilt and unstarted, in the box for others to oogle, so the ratio bought-to-built seems to be exceptionally low...

I think there are plenty of other reasons why the domination of 1/32 scale in new releases is a bad idea in the long run:

-Many so-called "covered" subjects in 1/48th scale are actually very poorly executed models, this still holding for most Spitfire marks and post-F Me-109s... The fact is 90% of 1/48th kits are nowhere near the "state-of-the art" quality that most of the new 1/32 kits routinely demonstrate... For instance, the very important B-24 we have in 1/48th is little more than an egg-plane caricature in the upper fuselage area, to put it mildly...

-1/32 is not a reasonable "entry" scale for young beginners, some of the cheaper kits being, at best, not insanely pricey... (I suspect that, deep down inside, one of the main attraction of this scale is that a very young modeler is very unlikely to show up with one of the newer 1/32nd aircrafts kits built...)

-Too few kits are being built generally, as increasing standards of finishing do slow things down for most people. 1/32 scale seems to worsen that trend...

-Far fewer "big" or four-engine subjects will ever really be seen built, and I have never even seen yet any of the 1/48th scale "big" or four engines models built in person anyway (except for the Monogram C-47, once, in a local show)...

-Finally, and to me by far the biggest issue of all, unlike with1/48th scale, there is no corresponding 1/32nd armor or vehicles... So far, I don't even know if there is a simple decent Jeep to put next to that future B-17G...

I'm sure these vehicles will appear eventually: In a trickle in ten years or so, when most of the major aircraft types will finally be covered... But quite frankly I would have much rather seen the big-scale revival done in 1/35th scale, as the diorama potential would then have been truly fantastical, and much more liberating than the stifling scale separation we will still have to deal with for decades to come...

I think the impact of dioramas to inspire new recruits to the hobby is hugely underestimated: Without Sheperd Paine's "How to build dioramas", the Monogram diorama leaflets, and many museum and hobby shop displays I remember, I doubt I would still be interested in this hobby... In fact, I quit in the mid 80s in part because of the lack of 1/48th vehicles (Bandais were very hard to find for a youngster back then)...

It is true most modelers don't build dioramas, especially aircraft dioramas, but small numbers do not mean the impact of them is proportional.

Also, most dioramas actually worsen the size problem of any aircraft... This is what I meant by every inch counting...

Maybe I'll be proven wrong, but 1/32 seems to me unlikely to increase the richness and creativity of the hobby in the long run... Sheperd Paine himself noted recently that fewer and fewer things he saw nowadays makes him think "I'd wish I'd built that"...

Gaston







dioman13
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Posted: Saturday, December 11, 2010 - 07:47 AM UTC
As a dio builder, I'm up for this one. I'm already on thought overload with the possabilities Emergency landing all shot to heck with the crewq kissing the ground, gear up in a field, in the drink, and the list goes on and on... Lets not forget an A-20?
bill_c
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Posted: Saturday, December 11, 2010 - 02:16 PM UTC
Gaston, when someone says other model builders are wrong for purchasing 1/32nd aircraft because they won't finish them or it's bad for the hobby, I just don't know what to say. That takes some real stones, mon ami.

As to your concern about NOT finishing 1/32nd aircraft, well, I'm doing my part:

http://aeroscale.kitmaker.net/forums/166707#1400304


and

http://aeroscale.kitmaker.net//features/3328



Quoted Text

Bill,
This may not be in your stash, but don't forget the TOTALLY impractical 1/35th scale Dora railray gun. As an armor builder when I first heard about it I thought "Not for me, but TO EACH HIS OWN."

Which is the way it should be in this hobby. Demand and profits will drive what the manufacturers produce.

Keith


Keith, I don't have the Dora Gun in my stash (there are $$$ limits, LOL!), but the Loki Moerser would tempt me if the kit were available at the right price.

But I agree completely that the market will determine what kits and what scale(s) people want. And that's the way it should be. If Gaston doesn't want any 1/32nd kits, then that's more for me!
DougCohen
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Posted: Friday, December 17, 2010 - 01:58 AM UTC
I think this is very cool. big yes but I also do RC planes and have a 6 and one half foot B-24 in my hobby room so this does not sound that big to me. I guess it is a matter of perspective.
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