_GOTOBOTTOM
Early Aviation
Discuss World War I and the early years of aviation thru 1934.
The German & Turkish Air Service Middle East
JackFlash
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Colorado, United States
Joined: January 25, 2004
KitMaker: 11,669 posts
AeroScale: 11,011 posts
Posted: Friday, March 04, 2011 - 05:39 PM UTC
I got this and thought to share it with you all.




Quoted Text

Dear Stephen,
Firstly sorry for my english, i will try to explain things

I am a modeller from Turkiye (Turkey). I will built an Albatros DVa. in Turkish markings captured from Jasta1F(Pascha).

I saw your old posts from another forum about this subject.
I think you have some information about D.Va types in Jasta 1F.

Sadly i cant find correct and detailed information about my countries aircraft We know only this is from Jasta1F, yellow varnished, light blue, mauve and green camo etc. But in this photo i cant see lines on ribs. Do you think this aircraft have lozenge ? Or what do you think about this aircraft ? Your information will realy help me.

Regards
Rahmi

thegirl
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Alberta, Canada
Joined: January 19, 2008
KitMaker: 6,743 posts
AeroScale: 6,151 posts
Posted: Friday, March 04, 2011 - 05:57 PM UTC
An interesting photo , it does show rib tapes on the lower upper left wing very clear and the tail surfaces as well . Also noted is the dual rads on the top wing for increased cooling in the hot climate . Thanks for sharing this photo with us Stephen & Rahmi

.
Kornbeef
_VISITCOMMUNITY
England - South East, United Kingdom
Joined: November 06, 2005
KitMaker: 1,667 posts
AeroScale: 1,551 posts
Posted: Friday, March 04, 2011 - 08:21 PM UTC
Yes thanks for sharing, an interesting scheme/project. Looks like the elevator and nose are finished in the same colour, and two bands around her. But I would say lozenge yes on the wings and tail.
akhilleus
Joined: January 28, 2003
KitMaker: 28 posts
AeroScale: 27 posts
Posted: Saturday, March 05, 2011 - 03:50 AM UTC
Fixed
"But in this photo i can see lines on ribs"
JackFlash
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Colorado, United States
Joined: January 25, 2004
KitMaker: 11,669 posts
AeroScale: 11,011 posts
Posted: Saturday, March 05, 2011 - 04:00 AM UTC
The line on the ribs are rib tapes that are sewn inplace. All aircraft had these (either on top or under the wing fabric). It kept tears and rips from traveling across the wing surface.
akhilleus
Joined: January 28, 2003
KitMaker: 28 posts
AeroScale: 27 posts
Posted: Saturday, March 05, 2011 - 04:03 AM UTC
I have two new questions
-Two straight lines on the fuselage. Maybe these are from old paint scheme this aircraft ?
-Have you any idea about white area near cockpit ? You can see same thing in this photo too.
http://www.hvkk.tsk.tr/PageSub/CokluOrtam/FotoGaleri/GaleriImages/tarihi_ucak/Albatros%20D.V.jpg
JackFlash
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Colorado, United States
Joined: January 25, 2004
KitMaker: 11,669 posts
AeroScale: 11,011 posts
Posted: Saturday, March 05, 2011 - 04:13 AM UTC


Here is my version of Alb. D.Va 5360/17 in FA300 after an inflight collapse of the left wing tip. Titled "Nice landing herr Leutnant." This is the Eduard 1/48 kit #8109. At the beginning of 2002 we saw the introduction of Eduard's release their 'neu' mold of the Albatros D.V kits (Feb, #8109 and in March #8110 Profipack.) The new process allows finer more exacting details be included in the overall plastic mold. It easily competes with any of the ‘Tamigawa' companies processes. To simulate the Wood panel sections of the fuselage I used applications of acrylic and enamel paints. Rigging is monofilament, The cockpit is detailed to include structure and equipment using modified kit items and Eduard’s brass fret #48218. Lozenge decals are Eagle Strike 5 colour Camouflage sheets. National markings are kit items. Plumbing and landing gear struts are brass rod bent and cut to shape. Propellor is laminated wood carved to shape. The upper left wing tip was scratchbuilt and cover with layers of decal film. This kit represents a Johannistahl built Albatros D.Va 5360/17 flown by Ltn. Victor Häfner of FA300 & 304. Sometime in June - July 1918 after the ground crew had completed repairs To this machine, Ltn. Häfner took it up for a test flight one morning in his pajamas. At about 3000 ft the pilot heard a loud ‘crack’ the resultant emergency landing was due to a collapsed upper left wing tip. He managed to land at Afuleh airfield. This was one of several instances where the Top wing tip of a Tropical Albatros D.Va failed. An interesting note is that this machine doesn’t appear to have the outboard stay wire seen typically on Western front Albatros D.Va types.


JackFlash
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Colorado, United States
Joined: January 25, 2004
KitMaker: 11,669 posts
AeroScale: 11,011 posts
Posted: Saturday, March 05, 2011 - 04:19 AM UTC
Here are a few more images courtesy of Historical artist Mark Miller and the info is from historian Marlon Schultz. Images used with Mr. Miller's permission. These are the German units in the middle east during 1918.



". . . This aircraft was photographed in a damaged condition.and it's pilot has been identified as Ltn. Victor Haeffner originally of Jasta 300.
The wings are camouflaged and have been depicted in the top pattern of mauve to second rib on the left from the centre section cut-out dark green to the first rib from the centre section cutout /mauve. Notice the unusual angles of the demarcation line between mauve and green. Instead of the centre colour having parallel ends they instead angle out from each other. The left lower wing panels is dark green to the 5th rib from the root. Mauve to the root. The lower right wing is not visible and Mark has positioned the demarcation line on this wing in a possible location.It is suspected the right lower wing panel might possibly be dark green to the third rib from the root / mauve to tip. (Note D)

The starboard side of the horizontal stabilizer and elevator is either covered in clear doped linen replacement covering or the lozenge fabric pattern has been washed out by the reflection from the sun. The lozenge pattern is visible on the port side of the horizontal stabilizer and provides an interesting contrast with the mauve and green painted wings. We have depicted the stabilizer as being covered entirely with 5-colour lozenge with salmon pink rib tape.

The fuselage metal parts all struts and the spinner are most like in a pale grey-green shade while for the most part the wooden part of the fuselage has retained it factory clear varnished look. There is a dark coloured vertical band encircling the fuselage, which we have depicted along with the serial number as being black. As I mentioned in the section dealing with 5359/17. I believe for the most part due to supply problems, black and white paint would be the most accessible colours, as they would be needed to re-paint the national insignia due to surface repairs. There would be, as to any rule, exceptions. . ."
JackFlash
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Colorado, United States
Joined: January 25, 2004
KitMaker: 11,669 posts
AeroScale: 11,011 posts
Posted: Saturday, March 05, 2011 - 04:25 AM UTC


". . .Heinz Nowarra identified this aircraft as belonging to Jasta 2(F) (Jasta 300).

We know now by the time this photograph was taken whatever Jasta number you used was irrelevant as the Jasta had been reduced in strength to where it's small numbers made it totally in-effect. This aircraft, Albatros D.Va 7416/17 was photographed along with D.5359/17 when the British captured them on the airfield occupied by Fl. Abt. 304. They might have represented a major portion of Jasta 1(F) operational capabilities.

This tropical Albatros D.Va came from the third production batch and probably led quite an interesting existence. A number of times the Jasta was down to one or two airplanes, the rest lost through attrition and combat. That an aircraft carrying the national markings of March/April 1918 must have meant this aircraft was around from nearly the beginning. It wore 5-colour lozenge on its wings and horizontal stabilizer. Probably dark day on top /light day on the bottom with salmon pink rib tapes. All metal parts, spinner, all struts, and wheel centre's probably in typical Albatros light grey-green

The fuselage is depicted in natural wood with a centreline horizontal tri-stripe believed to be white /black/white. Note how the tri-stripe wraps around the spinner. The fuselage hakenkreuz appears lighter in the photographs than the centre band of the centreline tri-stripe but is still a dark colour. It might be blue, dark green, dark grey or as I have asked Mark to depict it as red. I have wondered if the same pilot who applied centreline tri-stripe applied the hakenkreuz. If not, then who applied the centre tri-line marking? Could it have been an attempt at a jasta mark? Most likely not, since this Jasta was the only German fighter unit in this theatre. How about another pilot's personal marking? But who marking could it be The swastika has been associated with the Jasta 300 pilot Hermann Kunz who is known to have used the hakenkreuz as a personal mark during his stay with Jasta 7. Hauptman Franz Walz has also been identified as the pilot of this aircraft. I have often wondered if an officer, who wasn't successful as a Jasta leader in France, would be more concerned as commander that his units were well supplied in this logistical nightmare than his participation in combat. I would think someone more aggressive in the air such as the squadron leader Flecken flying a conspicuous marked aircraft or as I mentioned above Kunz.

There is a small painted number "5 " on the fuselage tri- stripe which has been depicted in the same colour as the Hakenkreuz. Why the small number "5"? . Did this Jasta once number it's aircraft with individual numbers and this is the last survivor of that group? The serial number is unusual because of the abbreviation "Alb." for Albatros above the number 7416/17. The rudder is clear doped with the Albatros factory decal present. . ."
JackFlash
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Colorado, United States
Joined: January 25, 2004
KitMaker: 11,669 posts
AeroScale: 11,011 posts
Posted: Saturday, March 05, 2011 - 04:31 AM UTC


Heinz Nowarra identified this aircraft as belonging to Jasta 2(F) (Jasta 300).
This Eiserne kreuz insignia that this tropical Albatros would probably have been delivered with has been altered to the final style of National insignia sanctioned by the German airforce. There is a possibility that the wings and horizontal stabilizer of this aircraft are finished in the same way as the next in line at the Albaros Werke - D.5360/17 - (see above). The cowl and struts are in the factory pale grey-green finish while the fuselage appears in a dark colour that appears to have been applied as a heavy stain. In keeping with the belief of limited colour availability we have depicted this as black. I believe black and white would be the colours most readily available because of their need to repaint the national insignia after repairs. The propeller spinner, wheel centres , fin and rudder are painted white. No remnant of the Albatros factory decal survives on the rudder. The serial number of the aircraft is painted in black, but curiously there is no year of production recorded . I find it interesting that no remnants of the previous styles of the national insignia which preceded those present when photographed do not show through on the fuselage or fin.

A small portion of this aircraft's lower wing surface with the final style of balken kreuz is visible and it appears the area surrounding the balken kreuz is painted in a shade similar to the undersurface colour. Mark has therefore depicted the top wing balkenkreuz with the painted out areas matching the surrounding surfaces.

JackFlash
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Colorado, United States
Joined: January 25, 2004
KitMaker: 11,669 posts
AeroScale: 11,011 posts
Posted: Saturday, March 05, 2011 - 04:38 AM UTC
Jasta 1F was also known as Jasta 55. The AWM has some info on Alb. D.III types from this unit.

http://www.awm.gov.au/

More from Marlon Schultz;
". . .Albatros D.Va 7416/17 and D.5359/17 have been identifed by Heinz Nowarra as belonging to Jasta 2F otherwise known as Jasta 300 commonly know to the Germans as "Jasta Felmy"

Albatros D.Va 5360/17 is also a Jasta 300 member, it's pilot Ltn. Victor Haefner (originally Fl. Abt. 304) was a member of Jasta 300.

Albatros D.III 636/17 belonged to Fl.Abt. 300. The two Albatros D.III fighters from Fl.Abt. 300 were not tropical, but standard European fighters from the second production batch.

*These aircraft arrived in June 1917. Steele holed the rad on D.III 636/17 and it was captured with its pilot Ltn. Dittmar on Oct 8 1917. The second Albatros shot down by Steele is unconfirmed in German literature.

* In mid to late Oct 1917 with the arrival of additional German Fl. Abt., sixteen Albatros D.III also arrived. These aircraft were later formed into " Jasta Felmy" named after their first and greatest commander , "the sportsman" Gerhard Felmy

* All tropical D.III fighters were built by O.A.W. *The Ottoman Army bought 31 D.III (O.A.W.) fighters from the last two production batches. They had 2 Albatros D.V and 1 Albatros D.Va. The D.V/D.Va were received from the German "Pasha" units. The Ottoman's also had 3 D.II fighters".
JackFlash
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Colorado, United States
Joined: January 25, 2004
KitMaker: 11,669 posts
AeroScale: 11,011 posts
Posted: Saturday, March 05, 2011 - 04:44 AM UTC
My info first came from the old Cross & Cockade USA, and it has some great stuff on the *Turkish & Palistine fronts. *Vol. 11 #2,3,& 4 discusses the Ottoman Air Force and its allocated equipment. Vol. 13 #1, Pp. 15 *spring 1972 has the story of Ltn. Hans Henkel. *In the same issue on Pp.46-59 a nice descriptive piece on Jasta 55. and some errata appeared in Vol.14 #3, P.284. *Also 'Die Deutsche Luftstreitkrafte an der Sinai und Palästina Front 1916-1918. in the title Luftwelt Vol 2 #9, #10, #11 & #12.1935 and Vol 3 #1 & 2 1936.

The Official History of Austrailia in the War of 1914-1918. 12th ed. 1942. *Photos that you may find of value are in the C&C USA Vol.11,#4,Pp.353,359 & 366.

Albatros D.Va 5350/17(or was it 5360/17) of Jasta 55 (1F) was photographed in damaged condition *Wings were two toned factory spray with the areas l-r on the top wing appears to be mauve/green/mauve with Twin radiators. *the lower port wing was l-r green mauve. Fuselage was factory finish with a single dark coloured band around the fuselage. *The port horizontal tail stabilizer is 5 colour lozenge. *The elevator maybe an unbleached linen repair item. The strong sunlight and dark shadows of this shot prevent any further speculation. Other serials were D.7416/17 (with Felmy's or Kunz' Hakenkreuz?) 5348/17 & 5359/17. *See also C&C USA Vol. 12 #4. Pp. 380 & 381. D.Va 5359/17 had a dark fuselage and white spinner, wheelcovers. rudder & fin with post July 1918 crosses. Some of the Jasta 300 seemed to have dark stripe bordered in white from nose to tail down the side of the fuselage.
JackFlash
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Colorado, United States
Joined: January 25, 2004
KitMaker: 11,669 posts
AeroScale: 11,011 posts
Posted: Saturday, March 05, 2011 - 04:45 AM UTC
Another historian weighed in with;

". . .the second kill of Steele CAN be proven by German sources.

Offizierstellvertreter Paul Leim (the same guy who figures so prominently in front of a well known Kesta 4b SSW D III later in the war) has left a rather complete assessment of his activities on the Palestine front (flying combat missions there from Sept 30, 1917 to March 29, 1918 ).

On October 8, 1917, he reports a combat flight in an AEG C IV with Oberleutnant Daum as an observer (flying time 7:10 to 8:45). He quotes fighter escort ("Jagdschutz") to be provided by two Albatros flown by Lt. von Thuena (Thüna to be more precise, but I´m not sure whether the Umlaut comes through), whom he remembers as the brother of the "famous pre-war flyer" (which indeed is true) and Lt. Dittmar, who was an "Unteroffiziers-Schueler" together with him at his military training in Leipzig-Lindenthal.

The flight got involved with a fight with two "English B.E. twinseaters (sic)", with von Thüna making an emergency landing in German held territory adn Dittmar (as is well known) coming down on the other side of the lines. Leim describes his aircraft also as being hit in combat , but claims to have hit at least one of the British aircraft, which was seen going down OOC (but he did not apply for a victory for this one). He continued the recce mission without escort, a deed for which he received the "Eiserner Halbmond" (Iron Half Moon). . .".
JackFlash
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Colorado, United States
Joined: January 25, 2004
KitMaker: 11,669 posts
AeroScale: 11,011 posts
Posted: Saturday, March 05, 2011 - 04:48 AM UTC
'...All tropical Alb. D.III fighters were built by O.A.W. *The Ottoman Army bought 31 D.III (O.A.W.) fighters from the last two production batches. The had 2 Alb. D.V and 1 Alb. D.Va. The D.V/D.Va were received from the German "Pasha" units. The Ottoman's also had 3 D.II fighters...'

These two units were unified into one operational Jasta and used both the designations Jasta 55/1 (F) and Jasta 300. After the fall of Aleppo in Oct. 1918 both units were made prisoners of war. In March 1919, when finally demobilized both units Jasta 55 or Jasta 1(F) and Jasta 300 were amalgemated and listed as Jasta 300.

SEE GERMAN FIGHTER UNITS JUNE 1917-1918 by A. Imrie, Osprey #17 Airwar series, Pp.37-38, 1978.
JackFlash
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Colorado, United States
Joined: January 25, 2004
KitMaker: 11,669 posts
AeroScale: 11,011 posts
Posted: Saturday, March 05, 2011 - 04:54 AM UTC
Here is a bit of fun on the subject of twin radiators.


144sram
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Czech Republic
Joined: December 28, 2008
KitMaker: 8 posts
AeroScale: 6 posts
Posted: Saturday, March 05, 2011 - 04:58 AM UTC
http://www.tayyareci.com/digerucaklar/turkiye/ww1/albatrosd5.asp
JackFlash
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Colorado, United States
Joined: January 25, 2004
KitMaker: 11,669 posts
AeroScale: 11,011 posts
Posted: Saturday, March 05, 2011 - 05:01 AM UTC
More tropical Alb. D.III imges.


JackFlash
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Colorado, United States
Joined: January 25, 2004
KitMaker: 11,669 posts
AeroScale: 11,011 posts
Posted: Saturday, March 05, 2011 - 05:04 AM UTC
And here is the tropical Alb. D.Va 5360/17





My reference is an 8X10" photo and in my interpretation; we know that D.Va 5360/17 left the factory in lozenge fabric. It was in the same batch of 50 a/c as D. 5390/17. I think that the top wing and the lower left wing were the replacements. The starboard aileron, rudder and vertical stabilizers were in lozenge. Not much of the lower right wing is seen, but it is a very dark portion. Either the lower right wing is lozenge or two toned camouflage. I went with the lozenge. The elevator was either white or a CDL replacement. Since the machine had just come out of the repair shop that morning and the white is a little too grey in tone I went with CDL.
akhilleus
Joined: January 28, 2003
KitMaker: 28 posts
AeroScale: 27 posts
Posted: Saturday, March 05, 2011 - 05:05 AM UTC
http://www.tayyareci.com/digerucaklar/turkiye/ww1/albatrosd5.asp

Incorrect profile and Albatros DIII photo... Only "D.Va (factory nr. 7445) were transferred to the Turkish Air Force" useful.
JackFlash
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Colorado, United States
Joined: January 25, 2004
KitMaker: 11,669 posts
AeroScale: 11,011 posts
Posted: Saturday, March 05, 2011 - 05:09 AM UTC
Actually the Tropical Alb. D.III was used by the German units in Palistine.
akhilleus
Joined: January 28, 2003
KitMaker: 28 posts
AeroScale: 27 posts
Posted: Saturday, March 05, 2011 - 05:16 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Actually the Tropical Alb. D.III was used by the German units in Palistine.


Yes, i said that for Michal. He linked that...
And my modeller friend made one of them http://ozkanturker.brinkster.net/Galeri/albatros/index.htm

By the way realy thank you for amazing information Stephen. I'm still reading your posts
Kornbeef
_VISITCOMMUNITY
England - South East, United Kingdom
Joined: November 06, 2005
KitMaker: 1,667 posts
AeroScale: 1,551 posts
Posted: Saturday, March 05, 2011 - 05:19 AM UTC
The white square is the rigging diagram.
JackFlash
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Colorado, United States
Joined: January 25, 2004
KitMaker: 11,669 posts
AeroScale: 11,011 posts
Posted: Saturday, March 05, 2011 - 05:23 AM UTC
No worries. This is a thread that I had planned on introducing and your request was right on time.
JackFlash
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Colorado, United States
Joined: January 25, 2004
KitMaker: 11,669 posts
AeroScale: 11,011 posts
Posted: Saturday, March 05, 2011 - 05:37 AM UTC
Its a bit strange but in this image the wings are indistinct.

 _GOTOTOP