World War II
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1:48 P-61A Black Widow
Tomcat31
#042
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Posted: Thursday, July 07, 2011 - 07:20 AM UTC
I would hazard a guess at they aren't his models especially after this comment in the sprue shots thread of not having the time to build models due to all the "accuracy" issues that manufacturers insist on making

Quoted Text

90% of my building time is spent fixing manufacturer errors, and I simply don't have the time anymore to put up with this... 6 straight months fixing a Monogram B-24 canopy (and entire front fuselage)... 3 years fixing Hasegawa's Me-109G's nose (even with direct access to an original for measurements)... 4 years wasted on a B-29 fuselage incurably asymmetrical from nose to tail...



Edit: just found this over on Aircraft Resource Centre 1/48 Revell/Monogram P-61 Black Widow Gallery Article by Brian Param so I would say there is a strong possibility they are not photos of his models (unless Gaston is also known as Brian).
Jonathan_Mock
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Posted: Thursday, July 07, 2011 - 08:52 AM UTC

Quoted Text



Edit: just found this over on Aircraft Resource Centre 1/48 Revell/Monogram P-61 Black Widow Gallery Article by Brian Paramso I would say there is a strong possibility they are not photos of his models (unless Gaston is also known as Brian).



Brian actually finished models, so no, I don't think its the same.

So what's the story Gaston, permission yes or no?
vanize
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Posted: Thursday, July 07, 2011 - 09:22 AM UTC
let's please not get on permissions, lest most people on here will be hounded in the future. open source for and open world

for example, did Jonathan ask permission from the original person when he re-posted those images?

no moral high ground there guys.
mtnflyer
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Posted: Thursday, July 07, 2011 - 09:49 AM UTC
I'm just really, REALLY HAPPY that there's a new P-61 coming out soon. My intentions are to buy it and try to build it no matter what. Its a very cool looking plane, and rest assured there will be AM turrets, decals and everything else.

I don't have the childish need to get into a squabble; I only have the adult intention of building one.
Jonathan_Mock
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Posted: Thursday, July 07, 2011 - 01:43 PM UTC

Quoted Text

let's please not get on permissions, lest most people on here will be hounded in the future. open source for and open world

for example, did Jonathan ask permission from the original person when he re-posted those images?

no moral high ground there guys.



My bad, I meant to post them as links rather than IMG tags, and I can't edit the post, so if one of the mids can oblige.

Open source? I'm sorry, just because I post an image I own to a forum does mean I relinquish ownership of that image, nor does it give some permission to then steal it and repost it like its their own, and then refuse to stop using it. That's not moral high ground that's basic good manners and respecting others people's intellectual property.

And I object to it even more when my property is then used in a negative way by someone remote critiquing a kit they've not even got in front of them.

99% of the time people understand and respect that - its the 1% who think anything posted to the internet is fair game for them to use as they wish.

If you want to give away your intellectual property go ahead, but I won't, especially when someone has done it before, been asked to stop and had to have images removed by from their account, only to then do it again.
vonHengest
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Posted: Thursday, July 07, 2011 - 01:48 PM UTC
Despite any inaccuracies, I'm still very much looking forward to this kit and any later variants. I don't see much more work needing to be done with these than the old Monogram kits.
vanize
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Posted: Thursday, July 07, 2011 - 04:41 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Open source? I'm sorry, just because I post an image I own to a forum does mean I relinquish ownership of that image, nor does it give some permission to then steal it and repost it like its their own, and then refuse to stop using it. That's not moral high ground that's basic good manners and respecting others people's intellectual property.



actually, myspace, facebook, flickr, and many others have already made the case that you relinquish ownership of the posted version of the image and give it to them for the duration of the time you have it posted and they have to store the bits. so ownership of an image you created that is not specifically originating from your own servers is probably already not yours.

and while i really don't want to defend Gaston (i do want to defend easy use of images though) - he never actually claimed those were his original images or models, he is not making any profit from them, and point in fact he did modify the images, which in essence does give him some intellectual property rights (the Beasty Boys won that argument in court decades ago).

all i'm asking we please not get pedantic about image use so that we don't wind up with picky people jumping all over every post that has a linked image from some other website we are using as a quick and handy reference, something a LOT of us do.

someone accused of this type of infringement is likely to become an overly strong watchdog for the same thing in the future because they feel like they aren't allowed to do something everyone else does without repercussion. I really don't want Gaston going around calling out every post that has a linked image in it as something that should be removed.

And yes, if you get a request to remove and image that isn't wholly yours (or even one that is), then by all means you should do so.
Jonathan_Mock
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Posted: Thursday, July 07, 2011 - 10:45 PM UTC

Quoted Text

actually, myspace, facebook, flickr, and many others have already made the case that you relinquish ownership of the posted version of the image and give it to them for the duration of the time you have it posted and they have to store the bits. so ownership of an image you created that is not specifically originating from your own servers is probably already not yours.



And that has proven to be legally unenforceable. You retain copyright in law (both US and UK at least) despite what myspace, facebook, flickr etc may claim.


Quoted Text

and while i really don't want to defend Gaston (i do want to defend easy use of images though) - he never actually claimed those were his original images or models, he is not making any profit from them, and point in fact he did modify the images, which in essence does give him some intellectual property rights (the Beasty Boys won that argument in court decades ago).



No he didn't claim they were his, but equally - if my experiences are any indicator - he neither asked nor took any action when requested to stop using images and remove them from his Photobucket account.

And part of Photobucket's agreement - that have to you tick when join - is:

6.2 You represent and warrant that: (i) you own the Content posted by you on or through the Photobucket Services or otherwise have the right to grant the license set forth in this section,


Quoted Text

all i'm asking we please not get pedantic about image use so that we don't wind up with picky people jumping all over every post that has a linked image from some other website we are using as a quick and handy reference, something a LOT of us do.



Sure, a lot of us may go 10mph over the posted limit, doesn't make it right though. And the simple solution - which many people do - is to just post a link rather than embed with an IMG tag.


Quoted Text

someone accused of this type of infringement is likely to become an overly strong watchdog for the same thing in the future because they feel like they aren't allowed to do something everyone else does without repercussion. I really don't want Gaston going around calling out every post that has a linked image in it as something that should be removed.



Well we can make up all kinds of excuses and hypotheticals to create a straw man case - maybe we should all just start lifting reviews and images wholesale and reposting them to other places. I know forums have some schtick about their own IP rights, but hey where's the harm? So long as you're not actually profiting from it, open source and all that.


Quoted Text

And yes, if you get a request to remove and image that isn't wholly yours (or even one that is), then by all means you should do so.



I did and what was wrong then is still wrong now, end of.
AussieReg
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#007
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Posted: Thursday, July 07, 2011 - 11:55 PM UTC
I just want one !

Merlin
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#017
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Posted: Friday, July 08, 2011 - 12:28 AM UTC
Hi there

Aside from issues of legality of usage or otherwise, an act of common courtesy would be to credit the source(s).

All the best

Rowan
GastonMarty
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Posted: Wednesday, July 13, 2011 - 03:16 AM UTC

Allright, I'll note down the name of the modeller... I don't see why this matters in the least, because it is obviously not his build that is the subject being discussed, but the kit: The modeller's work is not relevant, only the angle of the photo...

Thanks to Guido for the new CAD angle: It confirms the situation is worse than I thought: It looks as though the entire forward fuselage is too wide...

(Note I no longer would claim the Dragon 1/72 kit is an impeccably accurate kit, but it certainly is a little closer than Pluto is to the Sun, which is about where this kit unfortunately is...)

Yes I know, it is a crashed P-61, so the side windows are a bit bent, so do go jump on that as evidence of reasonable doubt... I'll find other photos (with of course identical canopies) but in the meantime, this will have to do, as such high forward view angles are rare as always (Note I made a slight mistake at the top of the curve of the armored windshield: I include the unaltered photo for reference):







If the CAD holds true, the discrepancy is more than apparent, and is in fact similar to the 38 year old Monogram kit...

Now I absolutely want to hear from people who say they don't see a problem here...

Gaston
EdgarBrooks
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Posted: Wednesday, July 13, 2011 - 04:43 AM UTC
I don't see a problem here, BECAUSE I DON'T HAVE THE BLASTED KIT TO CHECK ANYTHING AGAINST, AND NEITHER DO YOU.
Edgar
Tailor
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Posted: Wednesday, July 13, 2011 - 06:08 AM UTC

... I'd rather engage in a colour shade discussion. I had a whole long text ready with more pics etc in reply, but I think it's pointless. I whole-heartedly ask you to please not buy this model kit. I will buy one to make up the loss in turnover...




MikeMx
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Posted: Wednesday, July 13, 2011 - 06:46 AM UTC
Guido - well done on your hard work with GWH. We (MJW Models) deal with the UK importers of GWH and this is one we will be defintely stocking. Looks as good if not better than the Fw189 and it looks like a P-61 to me anyway. Will you be at Telford this year?

thanks
Mike
Jonathan_Mock
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Posted: Wednesday, July 13, 2011 - 07:27 AM UTC
[quote]
I hate to pre-judge a kit before the actual plastic is displayed, [quote]

And yet you consistently do it.

[quote] Then it is an utter disaster... [quote]

Yes, my gos thev whole kit is going to terrible because of a subjective opinion of a single frame on a canopy. And even if it was wrong... Oh if only someone out there could figure a way of making replacements in really thin plastic, like you get in boxes of chocolate...

But you are right, this hobby is being ruined by stuff like GWH. Unless they can get it 101% correct, just not bother. I won't be buying one because of a canopy frame.

Ruined!!!
Jonathan_Mock
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Posted: Wednesday, July 13, 2011 - 07:34 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Allright, I'll note down the name of the modeller... I don't see why this matters in the least, because it is obviously not his build that is the subject being discussed, but the kit: The modeller's work is not relevant, only the angle of the photo...



It matters Gaston when you take someone else property and treat it as your own. And you knew my name because I contacted you enough times asking you STOP USING MY PROPERTY but you still carried on.

And yet again we have a remote critique of a kit, this time based on CAD renders coupled with what appears to be a lack of understanding about the basic geometry of a P-61 canopy with a dash iof hysterical hyperbole about the kit being "ruined".

I actually do feel kinda sad in a way, for most people this is a hobby, for you... I'm qualified to say other than you treat (your perception of) most minor imperfections as some great personal disappointment.

I'll enjoy my P-61 and thank you GWH.
Merlin
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Posted: Wednesday, July 13, 2011 - 08:35 AM UTC
Hi again

I think it was fair enough for Gaston to raise a question over the canopy while there was still half a chance of making a change if need be. That's why I alerted Guido to his original post. I know from my experience as part of the informal group of modellers and historians that Dragon ask to cast an eye over new products that quite major changes can be implemented surprisingly close to a planned release date, thanks to modern technology.

But, like everyday life, a major lesson one has to learn early on in this game is that, just because someone seeks your advice, that doesn't always mean it will be accepted. All you can do is make the designers aware of a potential issue, and let them decide how to proceed. I've also learned not to judge solely on the basis of CAD views; there's no substitute for having the actually kit in your hands to form a valid opinion.

If there does turn out to be a real issue with the canopy, I think we can rely on Sergey Kosachev to produce a superb clear resin corrected replacement, just as he has done for the Monogram P-61, while Squadron-Falcon may follow the vacuform route.

Whichever way you look at it, talk of disaster may be a tad premature...

All the best

Rowan
Tailor
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Posted: Wednesday, July 13, 2011 - 09:54 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Guido - well done on your hard work with GWH. We (MJW Models) deal with the UK importers of GWH and this is one we will be defintely stocking. Looks as good if not better than the Fw189 and it looks like a P-61 to me anyway. Will you be at Telford this year?

thanks
Mike



Thanks, Mike! We are trying!
I hope to make it to Telfrod this year, but it'll probably be a last minute decision.

Rowan-
I tried to follow Gaston's point, but I think that I left having a discussion for the sake of having discussion behind me when I quit my teens. I have come to the conclusion that no one will ever be able to win an argument with Gaston as I get the feeling that his point is being right or knowing better, but not furthering the hobby. Best proof is that there is not a single photo of a model he made in his gallery. Probably he shouldn't try to iron out all the "super terrible mistakes" made by the stupid, blind, and ignorant makers, but finish a model ones in a good while. Maybe then he will realize that form just 3 feet away he will not be able to see any of those "nerve wrecking" inaccuracies. (Admittedly I could be wrong and he is an incredibly good modeller, but I do have my doubts.)
IMHO modelling is supposed to be about trying our best, both as modellers and producers. Having to follow up every whine kills all the fun and anticipation in developing a new kit and it ultimately kills the fun in the hobby. At least for me it does. I have read up quite a few of his "/reviews" now and have decided to not engage in any further discussion with him. This is still a hobby for me and I know that the owner of GWH is still a hobbyist himself, with all the boyish grinning and Christmas anticipation when starting to work on a new kit design or unboxing a newly released kit for the first time. I'll try to keep an open mind about critique, but I will more closely think about where it is coming from. So, in the future I will still appreciate pointers and will pass them on as long as I have the feeling that it's a valid argument and not just turning into knit picking.
In the end it's going to be a model kit and I there will be always some disappointed that it won't actually fly any further than you are able to throw it.

Cherry,
Guido
Tomcat31
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Posted: Wednesday, July 13, 2011 - 12:06 PM UTC
To be perfectly honest Gaston, I do not and cannot see or understand what the issue supposedly is, as I can't seem to correlate the photos with lines drawn all over them in comparison to the CAD images which is at a different angle.

If there is an issue with the canopy then it won't bother me as at the end of the day it will look like a P-61 and I build kits for the enjoyment and relaxation it gives me after a hard day at work. I'm sure the majority of modellers won't be too bothered by the inaccuracy either and will also enjoy building the kit for just the purpose of enjoying the build.

I for one will be one of them and I'm really looking forward to its release.
SunburntPenguin
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Posted: Wednesday, July 13, 2011 - 02:20 PM UTC
Allen I'm with you.

The vector lines that Gaston has drawn makes the situation less clear not more clear.

I'm like most people here, I'll live with the very small error that supposedly exists with this kit. Mind you it is very hard to say how much it affects the kit as I don't think anyone has actually seen the plastic as yet!

As long as it looks like a P-61 and not something else I'll be happy with it.

Gaston, a question for you. Until the release of the new Tamiya 1/32nd scale Mustang, most Mustang kits have had inaccurate undercarriage bays due to manufacturers not realising that the main spar formed the rear wall of the bays.

Did you "correct" this error,if you have built a Mustang, or did you live with what is a minor problem that is not visible to most people.

I only ask this as most people who would enter a model in a show or display and have it seen by the general public who might have a passing knowledge of the subject wouldn't realise about the small errors.
Bigrip74
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Posted: Wednesday, July 13, 2011 - 08:07 PM UTC
Just (2) items:

1. How much.
2. An F-15E Reporter version would be nice as stated above.

Bob
robot_
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Posted: Wednesday, July 13, 2011 - 09:54 PM UTC
I can't see any issues with the windscreen- remember the CAD images have no perspective applied.

I don't have the space for one, but the PR version would be great to see.
MikeMx
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Posted: Thursday, July 14, 2011 - 12:45 AM UTC
Just a random thought - maybe Guido can answer. Would GWH think of doing a Fw189 and P-61 in 1/72?

thanks
Mike
Tailor
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Posted: Thursday, July 14, 2011 - 07:15 AM UTC
I really can't say, but I wouldn't bet on it.
Guido
MikeMx
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Posted: Thursday, July 14, 2011 - 10:58 AM UTC
Would be a shame if they don't. I think there's room in the market for both in 1/72

thanks
Mike