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World War II
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All-new Tamiya 1/48th Il-2 Sturmovik!
GastonMarty
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Posted: Thursday, April 19, 2012 - 09:57 AM UTC

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I think the pictures show clearly this is the straight wing version: Look at the drawings and then the kit: The 20 mm cannons, on the kit, look almost perpendicular to the leading edge of the straight wing, which is a long, long, LONG way of being so on the swept wing...

It's just that the straight wing did have a slight trailing edge kink, and some leading edge sweep as well...


To be honest, I think there might be a problem with the wing, and also with another part I just realised. But I wont elaborate since I havent seen the real model yet and I wont make conclusons based on these few pictures. I will definitely buy it when it comes out.


I'm actually leaning your way that there might be a problem with the wings: The inside trailing edges seem to have a little bit too much "kink" for a straight wing, but the wings don't look like swept wings at all: I think it is possible a bit of trimming will be needed at the inner trailing edge to make a more correct straight wing...

The pitot tube position varied as the pylon-mounted straight wing I posted shows: It matches the Tamiya kit...:



We will know soon enough: It is due out in Hobby Shops this very month, if one source is to be believed...

Gaston

Removed by original poster on 04/19/12 - 22:41:28 (GMT).
GastonMarty
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Posted: Thursday, April 19, 2012 - 10:34 AM UTC
What looks weird to me:





Distortions could account for the very different red line exit point, but it does look odd...

Gaston

Merlin
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#017
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Posted: Friday, April 20, 2012 - 08:09 PM UTC
Hi Gaston

What's odd? The red line on the photo of the kit ties in pretty well with your drawing of the swept wing...

All the best

Rowan
GastonMarty
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Posted: Saturday, April 21, 2012 - 11:40 AM UTC

I think now you are correct: Tamiya does intend this as an Il-2M3: If you look at the trailing edges compared to a straight wing Accurate Miniatures kit, from nearly the same angle, the AM kit wing trailing edges look to have a slight sweep forward while the Tamiya wings suggest a more neutral angle lacking that same amount of visual forward sweep from that angle.

However, the difference with the straight wing looks suspiciously small when compared to Accurate Miniature's own swept wing (third image is reversed):







So it seems like a swept wing, but potentially odd-looking, and unfortunately there is something more definitely wrong about the whole kit (even if the wings are OK, which is very possible): The canopy does not look tall enough by quite a margin, and generally the kit quite evidently fails to capture the "feel" of the original subject: This could be an impression of the model being unpainted, but unlike usual unpainted effects the canopy here looks small and out of proportion with the fuselage, and the likeness does not seem great:





Overall, barring what it looks like painted, which could radically change the impression here, this does not seem like one of Tamiya's best efforts. Given their Fi-156, Tamiya can get pretty frightening sometimes, and this could be leaning that way... It just doesn't have the right "feel", so definitely I'll wait for finished builds to see what's what...

Gaston



GastonMarty
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Posted: Saturday, April 21, 2012 - 12:22 PM UTC

Another point worth noting is just how much more "right" the Accurate Miniatures kit looks when compared to the Tamiya on the issue of the canopy: I would say definitely do not sell or get rid of the AM kit: It was actually one of their very best ones for outlines (infinitely better than their Dauntlesses, Avengers or their awful Yaks), minus prop and spinner errors, and the more I look at the Tamiya kit the more I realize just how good the AM kit looks...

Gaston
eclarson
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Posted: Saturday, April 21, 2012 - 03:33 PM UTC
You can stop all the silly speculating.

http://www.hyperscale.com/2012/reviews/kits/tamiya61113reviewbg_1.htm

Eric
ejasonk
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Baden-Württemberg, Germany
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Posted: Saturday, April 21, 2012 - 07:51 PM UTC
This looks so great! I'll take 2-3 when they arrive
Merlin
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Posted: Saturday, April 21, 2012 - 08:06 PM UTC

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Cheers Eric

It does look great! My only regret is the lack of weighted wheels - the test-shot does look faintly ridiculous standing on "tiptoe". All the shots I have of the full-sized aircraft show quite pronounced "flats" in keeping with the weight of the beast, especially when fully loaded.

All the best

Rowan
eclarson
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Posted: Sunday, April 22, 2012 - 07:36 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Cheers Eric

It does look great! My only regret is the lack of weighted wheels - the test-shot does look faintly ridiculous standing on "tiptoe". All the shots I have of the full-sized aircraft show quite pronounced "flats" in keeping with the weight of the beast, especially when fully loaded.

All the best

Rowan


Hi Rowan,
It does indeed look good. Even with a couple AM kits in my stash, I'm going to be sorely tempted to add one of these.

I don't think Tamiya usually includes weighted wheels with their kits but that's nothing a few swipes with a sanding stick or application of a heated knife blade won't take care of.

Cheers,
Eric
Naseby
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Slovakia
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Posted: Sunday, April 22, 2012 - 08:47 AM UTC

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Looks very good. I will deffinitely pick one up when it is available.
SunburntPenguin
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Australian Capital Territory, Australia
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Posted: Sunday, April 22, 2012 - 12:19 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Another point worth noting is just how much more "right" the Accurate Miniatures kit looks when compared to the Tamiya on the issue of the canopy: I would say definitely do not sell or get rid of the AM kit: It was actually one of their very best ones for outlines (infinitely better than their Dauntlesses, Avengers or their awful Yaks), minus prop and spinner errors, and the more I look at the Tamiya kit the more I realize just how good the AM kit looks...

Gaston


How can you justify writing this kit off simply by judging it from pictures?

Why not wait until you get one in your hands? That's right you won't buy thsi kit as Tamiya show no imagination when it comes to their kits, according to you.

It looks like an Il-2 and that's enough for me, although I won't be getting this kit as it isn't what I like.

Passing judgement on a kit simply on pictures alone is a very dangerous business, as is demanding millimetre perfect accuracy.

Jessie_C
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Posted: Sunday, April 22, 2012 - 12:31 PM UTC

Quoted Text

How can you justify writing this kit off simply by judging it from pictures?

Passing judgement on a kit simply on pictures alone is a very dangerous business, as is demanding millimetre perfect accuracy.


Didn't you know? That's what Gaston does best! He can judge a kit from pictures taken by an unknown camera at unknown angles with unknown lens errors and reproduced by unknown equipment and hosted on unknonwn webservers. All those sources of error are no match for Gaston, who simply forges ahead and comes to the conclusion that every model ever produced is, was, and forever will be fatally flawed.

This last also explains why Gaston is never seen to actually finish a model.

Always remember to apply the Gaston Rule: If Gaston hates it, that means it's good.
Spiderfrommars
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Posted: Sunday, April 22, 2012 - 11:18 PM UTC

Quoted Text

What looks weird to me:





Distortions could account for the very different red line exit point, but it does look odd...

Gaston



sorry but... How can you compare two pics taken from different angles using different lenses? The pic of the actual subject that you posted is taken from below and it seems to have a very noticeable perspective distortion. Furthermore, have you considered the dihedral angle? That could be the reason why your red lines didn't match. Arguing is not my aim at all ,but it seems to me quite a nonsense judging a kit using those kind of references.
At a first glance the kit looks simply great, but I think I'll wait for the Russian modeller's judgement. They are icredibly nitpicker when a kit depicts a Russian subject

cheers
Naseby
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Posted: Monday, April 23, 2012 - 08:18 AM UTC

Quoted Text


At a first glance the kit looks simply great, but I think I'll wait for the Russian modeller's judgement. They are icredibly nitpicker when a kit depicts a Russian subject

cheers


No need to wait for that, there are few Il-2s around in Europe. I think that engineers from Tamiya visited Prag to get measures for this model.
Merlin
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Posted: Monday, April 23, 2012 - 08:48 AM UTC
Hi Naseby

I hope you're not suggesting that measuring a real aircraft is more valuable than drawing a few lines on photos from unknown sources?! Go and wash your mouth out with soap at once!

All the best

Rowan
Spiderfrommars
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Posted: Monday, April 23, 2012 - 09:18 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text


At a first glance the kit looks simply great, but I think I'll wait for the Russian modeller's judgement. They are icredibly nitpicker when a kit depicts a Russian subject

cheers


No need to wait for that, there are few Il-2s around in Europe. I think that engineers from Tamiya visited Prag to get measures for this model.


It would be the best way to design a kit, but I'm not sure that they have done it. It would have been quite expensive taking measures directly in Prague and there are lots of drawings out there. They could have taken one of them as a reference.
Anyway I think nowadays Tamiya makes the best aircraft models
GastonMarty
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Posted: Monday, April 23, 2012 - 09:32 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

What looks weird to me:





Distortions could account for the very different red line exit point, but it does look odd...

Gaston



sorry but... How can you compare two pics taken from different angles using different lenses? The pic of the actual subject that you posted is taken from below and it seems to have a very noticeable perspective distortion. Furthermore, have you considered the dihedral angle? That could be the reason why your red lines didn't match. Arguing is not my aim at all ,but it seems to me quite a nonsense judging a kit using those kind of references.
At a first glance the kit looks simply great, but I think I'll wait for the Russian modeller's judgement. They are icredibly nitpicker when a kit depicts a Russian subject

cheers


We now know it IS a swept wing: so the difference is quite normal: What are we argueing about?

As for the canopy, I am not saying it is wrong, but the glass sure does not look the same in proportions vs fuselage height above the wings (and the fuselage width) as it does on the Accurate Miniatures kit: You never heard me complain about the Accurate Miniatures kit's accuracy, did you?

I do know for a fact the Accurate Miniatures kit is close to dead-on, but a pain to build... The Tamiya kit from those few pictures looks odd, but is unpainted, so the canopy and how small (and high) it sits above the wing is an area to watch out for, is all I am saying... It does not look similar to the AM kit, or the real thing...

After all, they did produce a lot of garbage with their Fi-156, accuracy-wise, (and 1/48th Kubelwagen, and FW-190A, and Hetzer, and many others...)and if you can't see that then I'll guarantee you'll be happy with their Il-2 as well...

Gaston
Merlin
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Posted: Monday, April 23, 2012 - 09:46 AM UTC
Hi Gaston

Something for another thread, but one of these days you're going to have to explain to us just what is that you hate so much about Tamiya's Storch. I may well not agree with you (just like the "parallel" P-47 cowl), but I'd be interested to know...

All the best

Rowan
GastonMarty
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Posted: Monday, April 23, 2012 - 11:32 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Hi Gaston

Something for another thread, but one of these days you're going to have to explain to us just what is that you hate so much about Tamiya's Storch. I may well not agree with you (just like the "parallel" P-47 cowl), but I'd be interested to know...

All the best

Rowan


I can give a preview of Tamiya's great skills right away, so that we'll know what to expect...

The Tamiya P-47 cowl is not a matter of opinion: It is 30.3 mm wide near the front of its flaps, 28 mm exactly at the cowl's front line, both measured by cutting through the kit. It should be 28.1 mm throughout...

It is not my discovery (and hard to see to be fair), and the modeller who did discover it has a lot of stunning built models behind him, so apparently that doesn't make a difference to the wonderful world of Tamiya fans... (Not to mention the crumby canopy which is way worse):

http://www.geocities.jp/yoyuso/p47n/p47n17.jpg
http://www.geocities.jp/yoyuso/p47n/p47ne.html

As for the Fi-156, I thought that was just too gross to comment on, but since I am asked to back it up why not briefly explore this stunning display of Tamiya excellence, so that we can prepare ourselves for what their Il-2 might be like? After all, isn't this Stork their 100th 1/48th kit milestone flagship, the very best they could do?!?




Gosh, that is really just an amazing feat of precision... I figure a tube or three of putty will take care of that in a snap... Plus redoing the whole prominent raised stiching that this thing's belly is covered with, which Tamiya did such a good job of (and I really do mean that btw)...

But there's more:




But don't worry, this is all due to the different angles, lenses, lighting, air humidity and the photographer's morning meal... We are clearly looking at a masterpiece of precision.

The guys who did this are masters at their best: The proof is in the pudding... Funny: Why do I get the persistent feeling there is an Arthur Bentley drawing in there somewhere?(I say this because I recently learned he was the source of some of the utterly ridiculous complaints about Hasegawa's 1/48th Hawker Typhoon, which is partly why I avoided this kit for ten plus years: Such useful advice! How could we ever do without it?). With any luck, Tamiya stumbled accross some this master's work to do their Il-2: We should all be grateful that such great references are available...

Gaston




Spiderfrommars
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Posted: Monday, April 23, 2012 - 12:37 PM UTC




In my humble opinion that's the same mistake that you've done before

You can't compare these two pics, because they have different perspectives. According to the perspective rules the continous red lines that you've traced are more diverging in a plan view

To have a reliable image you should draw a plan view derived from the pics. You have to use the perspective rules to do it

cheers
SunburntPenguin
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Posted: Monday, April 23, 2012 - 12:39 PM UTC
Gaston, please correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't you the one who cast doubt on this being the swept wing version of the Il-2 in the first place?

No matter, but along with all the other kits that you condemn for being millimetres out, I'll say that this is a great kit.

Judging dimensions solely from photos of display aircraft and from pictures alone will always lead to spurious information.

Why not wait until you get one in your hands before passing judgement?
architect
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Posted: Monday, April 23, 2012 - 05:53 PM UTC
Gaston hi
It is a common rule among egineers, architects, draftsmen, and the like, that objective measurements, can only me maid on ortho-projections. That is plan views, section drawings etc. It has been like that all along.
You may be right about dementions, but the inly way to get your mesage across, is to compare the kit to a desent drawing, not pics.
Perspective geometry, is can provide relative comparison only, given the same point of focus, angles, distance, and yes the photographers breakfast too.

TedMamere
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Posted: Monday, April 23, 2012 - 06:11 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

I think that engineers from Tamiya visited Prag to get measures for this model.


It would be the best way to design a kit, but I'm not sure that they have done it. It would have been quite expensive taking measures directly in Prague and there are lots of drawings out there.


Expensive? Not for Tamiya believe me. They did send a few of their people to the Czech Republic and Russia to measure away...

Jean-Luc
Spiderfrommars
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Posted: Monday, April 23, 2012 - 06:34 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text


Quoted Text

I think that engineers from Tamiya visited Prag to get measures for this model.


It would be the best way to design a kit, but I'm not sure that they have done it. It would have been quite expensive taking measures directly in Prague and there are lots of drawings out there.


Expensive? Not for Tamiya believe me. They did send a few of their people to the Czech Republic and Russia to measure away...

Jean-Luc


Hi Jean Luc. Well I know, when they were the best kit company they could afford to send their engineers all over the word. In the seventies they even used to buy the F-1 cars to take measures for the models (For example they bought an exemplar of Tyrrell 6 wheels). To be honest I don't know if nowadays they are used to doing the same. Some of their latest products are not too accurate. I'm referring to AFV kits which actually are my main interest.
But anyway, I really hope that you're right.


Quoted Text

Gaston hi
It is a common rule among egineers, architects, draftsmen, and the like, that objective measurements, can only me maid on ortho-projections. That is plan views, section drawings etc. It has been like that all along.
You may be right about dementions, but the inly way to get your mesage across, is to compare the kit to a desent drawing, not pics.
Perspective geometry, is can provide relative comparison only, given the same point of focus, angles, distance, and yes the photographers breakfast too.



That's it! I agree with you dear colleague

cheers
 _GOTOTOP