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Modern (1975-today)
Discuss the modern aircraft age from 1975 thru today.
splendid f-35 article
drabslab
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Posted: Wednesday, May 09, 2012 - 11:48 PM UTC
Hai,

Following link directs towardsa splendid article on the f-35 raising (and answering) issues that I have been struggling with for some time

A very good reding for everyone interested in modern aircraft

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/article-view/feature/135080/f_35-reality-check-10-years-on-%28part-1%29.html
mike_espo
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Posted: Thursday, May 10, 2012 - 08:19 AM UTC
Interesting that at the top of the page is a advertisment for the Eurofighter Typhoon....

All aircraft have teething periods to iron out "bugs" Cost overruns are to be expected..especially for such advanced technology. No exceptions.
Siderius
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Posted: Thursday, May 10, 2012 - 10:29 AM UTC
I agree with Mike to a point, however, I wonder if the lessons of the F-111 and to a lesser extent the F-4 have not been learned. Some would also put the Panavia Tornado in this category as well, a category where you try and ask one aircraft to do too many roles at once! Good at many, master of none in other words. I wonder if this is part of the F-35's problem. Russell
Siderius
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Posted: Thursday, May 10, 2012 - 02:30 PM UTC
Maybe the F-4 was an incorrect example, it was in many ways a jack of all trades for all the services that flew it, Air Force, Navy and Marine Corp. It could many things, it is up to each person to come to their own conclusion as to whether it did everything extremely well or just adequately.

The F-35 has to be multi role and also multi service, which could be a hard role to fill. Just wanted to clarify my earlier comments. Any one else want to chime in on this? Russell
Jessie_C
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Posted: Thursday, May 10, 2012 - 02:37 PM UTC
I detect a slight[1] tinge of bias in that article. But there's also a lot of truth.


[1] For certain values of "slight".
JPTRR
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RAILROAD MODELING
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Posted: Thursday, May 10, 2012 - 03:07 PM UTC

Quoted Text

All aircraft have teething periods to iron out "bugs" Cost overruns are to be expected..especially for such advanced technology. No exceptions.



Mike is correct. The first Merlin P-51s suffered wing failures; USAF was loosing more F-4s to pilot error than combat in the mid-1960s, and something like 2/3 of the superb F-8 Crusader fleet suffered major (not necessarily total write-offs) accidents; F-15 was falling out the sky in the mid-1970s because of trouble with the F-100 engine; F-16 pilots had trouble with spatial disorientation; B-26 and F-104 were too advanced for the current training curriculum and started out with a horrible accident rate yet went on to be excellent systems.


But...

F-35 is a cutting-edge system with the potential to be and impressive aircraft if it is ever built. However, few aircraft ever live up to their hype. RAND published an analysis a year or so ago that basically stated that the last thing an F-35 pilot wanted to do was meet a Su-35 without a F-22 nearby.

The main problem with the F-35 is mismanagement. In the Fall of 2010 SecDef Gates almost killed it because of mismanagement. http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/03/24/fighter-gates-idUSN2415535120100324 A friend who is a naval officer aeronautical engineer, a literal rocket scientist, then explained to me the horrible job Lockheed-Martin and DoD have done with the program. They learned nothing from the McDonnell Douglas A-12 Avenger II fiasco.

Add in the world's economy and political caprice. We need a F-35 but I honestly think it'll be killed.

Not to be a bummer...
mike_espo
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Posted: Friday, May 11, 2012 - 02:40 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

All aircraft have teething periods to iron out "bugs" Cost overruns are to be expected..especially for such advanced technology. No exceptions.



Mike is correct. The first Merlin P-51s suffered wing failures; USAF was loosing more F-4s to pilot error than combat in the mid-1960s, and something like 2/3 of the superb F-8 Crusader fleet suffered major (not necessarily total write-offs) accidents; F-15 was falling out the sky in the mid-1970s because of trouble with the F-100 engine; F-16 pilots had trouble with spatial disorientation; B-26 and F-104 were too advanced for the current training curriculum and started out with a horrible accident rate yet went on to be excellent systems.


But...

F-35 is a cutting-edge system with the potential to be and impressive aircraft if it is ever built. However, few aircraft ever live up to their hype. RAND published an analysis a year or so ago that basically stated that the last thing an F-35 pilot wanted to do was meet a Su-35 without a F-22 nearby.

The main problem with the F-35 is mismanagement. In the Fall of 2010 SecDef Gates almost killed it because of mismanagement. http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/03/24/fighter-gates-idUSN2415535120100324 A friend who is a naval officer aeronautical engineer, a literal rocket scientist, then explained to me the horrible job Lockheed-Martin and DoD have done with the program. They learned nothing from the McDonnell Douglas A-12 Avenger II fiasco.

Add in the world's economy and political caprice. We need a F-35 but I honestly think it'll be killed.

Not to be a bummer...



Wow. Hope you are wrong about the kill. Lot of money down the drain.....
Jessie_C
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Posted: Friday, May 11, 2012 - 04:32 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Wow. Hope you are wrong about the kill. Lot of money down the drain.....



Better to kill it before we send more good money after bad. There comes a time to cut your losses and run.
DaveCox
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Posted: Friday, May 11, 2012 - 05:09 AM UTC
I hope the F35 works - or we've got two brand new carriers on the slips with no aircraft for them to operate...........unless we get the Harriers out of mothballs....
mike_espo
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Posted: Friday, May 11, 2012 - 06:47 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Wow. Hope you are wrong about the kill. Lot of money down the drain.....



Better to kill it before we send more good money after bad. There comes a time to cut your losses and run.



Whats the alternative?? Chinese and Russians have/are working along similar lines......
drabslab
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Posted: Sunday, May 13, 2012 - 06:38 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Whats the alternative?? Chinese and Russians have/are working along similar lines......



Not really, The russians are still trying to build the best fighter they can build, and add stealth as one contributing factor to consider.

It looks like the US tried to build a stealth airplane with fighting as second priority
mike_espo
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Posted: Sunday, May 13, 2012 - 07:28 AM UTC
You are probably correct. Here is another "splendid" article:

www.military.com/features/0,15240,186349,00.html


not as biased as your first article.

You have to copy/paste the entire URL to get it to work for some reason........


Jessie_C
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Posted: Sunday, May 13, 2012 - 10:13 AM UTC

Quoted Text

You are probably correct. Here is another "splendid" article:

www.military.com/features/0,15240,186349,00.html



Hmmm

Quoted Text

Lockheed Martin seems keen to talk up the F-35's air combat skills to bolster its chances for new foreign military sales -- namely, to Japan, Turkey and Greece.



Shades of the 1960s F-104 scandals...

That article has the Lockheed executives crying up its advantages, yet even a layperson can see that its advantages are not so advantageous after all. Given that it's years late, over budget, limited and may not even have a viable engine I have to wonder about the wisdom of continuing to pour money at it.
mike_espo
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Posted: Sunday, May 13, 2012 - 02:01 PM UTC
Jesse, name me ONE aircraft that was on time, at or under budget and had no teething problems or bugs. Or where the "right" powerplant performed as advertised the first time?????
Jessie_C
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Posted: Sunday, May 13, 2012 - 02:09 PM UTC
What about the other way around? Which aircraft has ever been more late, over budget, less able to meet its design criteria and with an engine that had more troubles?

The F-35 is a nifty toy, but I'm concerned that it's a darling of the politicians who are determined to chase their sunk costs by beating more money into an already dead horse. The aircraft itself is a case of too far little bang for way too many bucks. We need a plan B in place. Yeah, it would be great if it could live up to Lockheed's hype, but I just can't see that happening anytime soon.
Littorio
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Posted: Sunday, May 13, 2012 - 05:22 PM UTC

Quoted Text

I hope the F35 works - or we've got two brand new carriers on the slips with no aircraft for them to operate...........unless we get the Harriers out of mothballs....



Dave it's a bit late for that, the MOD has sold all the GR.7 and 9's to the US marines, while the FA.2's are either in museums or have been disposed of.

Well in a big U turn the UK gov has decided to go with the F-35B again, after the problems reported with the F-35C naval variant.
drabslab
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Posted: Monday, May 14, 2012 - 12:08 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Dave it's a bit late for that, the MOD has sold all the GR.7 and 9's to the US marines, while the FA.2's are either in museums or have been disposed of.



Don't you think that it is really significant that the US Marines are buying "old" STOVL aircraft while Lockheed Martin is promissing them the marvelous F-35 STOVL.

This looks like silently buying time (and airplanes) while avoiding having to officially admit that the F-35 will not deliver.

Spiderfrommars
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Posted: Monday, May 14, 2012 - 02:39 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Interesting that at the top of the page is a advertisment for the Eurofighter Typhoon....



Also for the Rafale.
Anyway I agree, in my humble opinion it sounds like a quite biased article

look also here

http://elementsofpower.blogspot.it/2012/05/giovanni-de-briganti-shillin-for-euros.html

cheers
mike_espo
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Posted: Monday, May 14, 2012 - 03:02 AM UTC

Quoted Text

What about the other way around? Which aircraft has ever been more late, over budget, less able to meet its design criteria and with an engine that had more troubles?

The F-35 is a nifty toy, but I'm concerned that it's a darling of the politicians who are determined to chase their sunk costs by beating more money into an already dead horse. The aircraft itself is a case of too far little bang for way too many bucks. We need a plan B in place. Yeah, it would be great if it could live up to Lockheed's hype, but I just can't see that happening anytime soon.



Jesse, what you say has gone on for over 100 years and will continue to go on. Same story with the YB-49. If u get a chance, read: NORTHROP'S FLYING WINGS by Pape. It gives a inside view to the trials and hardships of design of advanced aircraft; as the flying wing was revolutionary in the 1930s-40s.

The F-35 with V/Stol capability, stealth, advanced tracking, weapons delivery, C4 capability, as well as Air to Air combat capability is a tremendously advanced technologically cutting edge weapons system. A lot in one package, there are bound to be many problems with this system. Do I think it is overbudget and late; OF course! but acceptable considering the revolutionary nature of the beast.

As for politics: Of course! Billions of R&D as well as tons of political capital have gone into this aircraft.

The United States of America is a global superpower, with responibilities around the globe. For political as well as practical reasons we need this aircraft.

NATO and Canada probably can do without it as the article I found states it is only slightly better than the F/A-18 in terms of performance. However, I feel the UK needs this aircraft for the reasons stated from other forum members; I.E. the new flattops the UK is producing need this aircraft as well.

It all boils down to progress: A famous Canadian stated: "Only a fool stands in the way of progress"

William Shatner
Jessie_C
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Posted: Monday, May 14, 2012 - 07:49 AM UTC
How do you reconcile
Quoted Text

The F-35 with V/Stol capability, stealth, advanced tracking, weapons delivery, C4 capability, as well as Air to Air combat capability is a tremendously advanced technologically cutting edge weapons system.


with

Quoted Text

the article I found states it is only slightly better than the F/A-18 in terms of performance.

?
On the face of it, those are two diametrically opposing statements.


Quoted Text

As for politics: Of course! Billions of R&D as well as tons of political capital have gone into this aircraft.


Which as far as I'm concerned is insufficient reason for continuing. It can't to what it was designed to do, it can't do what the military wants it to do, Lockheed is mismanaging the program and it can't even do more than an aircraft 30 years older can already do. We here in Canada learned this lesson painfully with the Avro Arrow. When the Government and the Military are talking past each other, and the tax dollars are spiralling down the drain it's time to pull the plug and let the patient die. You folks did that with the A-12 Avenger years ago for the same reason: spiraling costs, mismanagement and no measurable improvement in the state of the art.


Quoted Text

The United States of America is a global superpower, with responibilities around the globe. For political as well as practical reasons we need this aircraft.


You need an aircraft that can do what Lockheed claims it can do, what the military wants it to do. This aircraft as it sits today is simply unable to meet those goals, and will not for at least another decade, assuming that runaway costs and mismanagement don't kill it first.


Quoted Text

NATO and Canada probably can do without it...


As can Australia, Israel and Japan.


Quoted Text

It all boils down to progress: A famous Canadian stated: "Only a fool stands in the way of progress"



And an equally famous American said "The buck stops here." This buck needs to stop, before it runs away.

These next quotes are from the Wikipedia article:

Quoted Text

In 2011 The Economist warned that the F-35 was in danger of slipping into a "death spiral" where increasing per aircraft costs would lead to cuts in number of aircraft ordered which would lead to further cost increases and further order cuts




Quoted Text

James Jay Carafano of the Heritage Foundation has suggested that it would be cheaper to build additional F-35s with known defective structures and fix these later than it would be to refit legacy aircraft to remain operational until full production of F-35s with full lifespan rated structural components could be built.



So we have an aircraft on the verge of entering into a "death spiral" of costs killing orders, being built with known structural deficiencies because it's too expensive to repair them by a company that has a history of scandals and mismangement. We have a paper tiger that can't deliver what its builder promises. We have second-best

"There is nothing more expensive than a second-best military."
mike_espo
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Posted: Monday, May 14, 2012 - 08:51 AM UTC
I don't intend to keep arguing with you. You are obviously very stubborn and your mind is set. Forget it!
Jessie_C
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Posted: Monday, May 14, 2012 - 09:24 AM UTC
We've wandered far off the topic of modelling. I recomend that each of us leave this thread alone.
Removed by original poster on 05/16/12 - 02:30:54 (GMT).
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