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World War II
Discuss WWII and the era directly before and after the war from 1935-1949.
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Tamiya Il-2: The real comparison.
GastonMarty
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Quebec, Canada
Joined: April 19, 2008
KitMaker: 595 posts
AeroScale: 507 posts
Posted: Saturday, June 02, 2012 - 12:24 AM UTC
When the first blurry pictures of the Tamiya 1:48th scale Il-2 appeared, I was initially very happy at the appearance of this very colourful subject, because the Accurate Miniatures kit had been a unpleasant failure (for me) due to a tendency for a too flat and assymetrical dihedral.

Wartime pictures of the Il-2 tended not to match the initial views angles, so I ignored the strange impression even the blurry pictures made: That changed when I found clear pictures at more appropriate angles: The canopy of the Tamiya kit looked disastrously too small: There was no doubt about it.

I knew the AM kit at least had always looked all right in the canopy size (though the AM nose had more serious problems than I anticipated), to the point of any comparison of it to photos of the Tamiya kit being quite shocking.

Then Brett Green announced that he was going to do a comparison article of the Accurate Miniatures kit to the new Tamiya kit, and I have to say I was puzzled: Just what was he going to say about this canopy debacle?

Prior to posting the article, he posted a question on his site as to possible canopy variantions on the Il-2: This is what the resident VVS expert Serguey (of Vector) answered (in substance): "The armoured glass windshield was never changed throughout the war"

Serguey did add however that there were many variations of the canopy framing fixtures, something which does not affect the canopy's overall proportions. Brett Green, however, seemingly seized on that for his article to make a rather strange claim.

This is how he handled the canopy issue between the two kits:

http://www.hyperscale.com/2012/features/il2amtamiyacomparison48bg_1.htm

Quote: "The windscreens of the Tamiya and Accurate Miniatures kits appear to be different. The rake of the Accurate Miniatures windscreen is slightly steeper while the armoured glass at the front of Tamiya’s is a bit wider. Once again, refer to Sergey’s photos to see one real example. Looking at wartime photos, it would appear that there were (at least) several variations in the style of windscreen, and the fairing below the windscreen. Sergey has pointed out that there were more than 90 serial modifications made to the Il-2 at various factories, so it is entirely likely that both Accurate Miniatures’ and Tamiya’s are correct, but different."

These are the pictures he used to illustrate the windshields:





Now that I actually have the Tamiya kit, any curiosity as to the way yours truly would go about it? Here goes:



Base width: AM: 18.8 mm Tamiya: 17 mm

Armored windscreen straight side height: AM: 8 mm

Tamiya: 6.8 mm

Armoured windscreen inside-frame width was slightly wider with AM than Tamiya, but not significant: 7.8 mm to 7.5 mm.

Some additional photos, all riddled with evil "lens distortions" of course...:








In profile, I found the assembled Tamiya kit does not overlay anywhere near as well as the Accurate Miniatures kit, whose errors are mostly confined only to the upper slope of the nose, but the AM also shares slightly the fin leading edge seen here:



This is not to say the AM kit is perfect: In fact the nose problems I know now are so serious that it makes Tamiya's idea of making obsolete the AM kit perfectly legitimate. The problem is that the Tamiya attempt was likely made only from inaccurate drawings that were assumed to be reliable: The better nose is of no help if the entire canopy and fuselage are now wrong... And in fact the AM kit is still by far the soundest basis, as the Tamiya kit is simply an unredeemable catastrophe: This is how far I got on the AM kit:



The nose profile required some vertical pinching at the front end, and some serious added tapering at the rear, plus a very small bit of overall nose backward tilting (in situ on the fuselage) which required some angling down of the exhausts to keep them level with the cockpit sills, and finally a bit of lenghtening by adding thick plasticard at the back end of the nose to keep top intake "deck" and its intake "body" in proportion, reshaping all that plasticard neatly into the radiuses of the wingroot leading edges: FUN!

Note the trimming of the intake lip back by 1.5 mm I previously said was actually more like 0.7 mm...



Getting the actual dimensions would not clarify as many things as you would think: The Tamiya cockpit sills are a lot wider than the canopy base on the kit, because there is a taper from the sills to the windscreen which absolutely does not exist in real life: This is why the Tamiya canopy looks so small and "lost" on top of the fuselage: Where should the measurement be taken?

The two kit armoured windscreens are close in width, and the difference in height is not the whole story: The entire Tamiya fuselage is too slim, and that shows up in the width of the nose which is way too sleek, as is the tail's depth too shallow. The nose is superficially better than the AM nose, but does not replicate the beefy proportions of the original, which also makes its rear bottom edge profile way too flat and horizontal towards the belly.

For all its flaws, the Accurate Miniatures kit displays a more than superficial soundness in outlines: Tamiya's errors are probably entirely due to a reliance on drawings.

There are much better models to build than either of them, in my opinion, and the sheer carelessness or sillyness on display here for a kit that had most of its research already done RIGHT on a PREVIOUS kit should be penalized by going to other, better treated subjects...

Not to mention the unpleasant feeling of the lame smokescreen laid down in its favour, while we're at it...

Gaston

P.S. And hey, $80 for a really great propeller and a good rear gunner MG is a bit steep too...: The spinner diameter does match fairly close to the AM kit spinner diameter, for the deeper pockets among us...

G.






Emeritus
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Uusimaa, Finland
Joined: March 30, 2004
KitMaker: 2,845 posts
AeroScale: 1,564 posts
Posted: Saturday, June 02, 2012 - 03:24 AM UTC
80 bucks? That IS a bit steep indeed when you could have gotten it for around $44 plus shipping.
SunburntPenguin
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Australian Capital Territory, Australia
Joined: March 15, 2011
KitMaker: 121 posts
AeroScale: 112 posts
Posted: Saturday, June 02, 2012 - 12:43 PM UTC
Once again, Gaston you have slammed this kit due to your dislike of Tamiya. No matter that Sergey informed us all that Tamiya had obtained drawings from Russia.

No matter that trying to make comparisons to photos is fraught with danger as lighting, distortion etc can and will alter how things will look.

Everyone else who builds kits puts up with the small errors that creep in, yet you demand perfect attention to accuracy with every kit released. Are you expecting a Rolls Royce everytime you buy a kit? I know I don't.

The best laugh is the price you paid.......someone saw you coming and jacked the price, as HLJ are selling theirs for USD44 plus postage.
NPLemche
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Sweden
Joined: March 29, 2012
KitMaker: 32 posts
AeroScale: 31 posts
Posted: Sunday, June 03, 2012 - 12:39 AM UTC
It is clear that Gaston collects kit only to deny them any legitimacy. That is his hobby, so let him do it in peace. We can see from his AM Il 2 how far he gets with building.

However, he never tells us what kind of sources he uses.

As long as he doen't he only playes the role of the

Lemche
GastonMarty
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Quebec, Canada
Joined: April 19, 2008
KitMaker: 595 posts
AeroScale: 507 posts
Posted: Monday, June 04, 2012 - 12:07 AM UTC

I'll just post a few more pictures with other observations...

To adress the issue of how to know which of the two kits got it right, there is the problem of specifying from where to where to measure, as the Il-2 is an aircraft that has complex armouring features and peculiar framing around the clear parts.

Measuring the pilot's sliding part bottom width on the AM kit gives 21 mm, vs 19.5 mm on Tamiya, but measuring the width of the real Il-2 canopy could be complicated by the protruding sliding rails and what not...

When asking for measurements I don't want to burden too much the people who do this favour for no compensation, so I will try here to ask just for two measurement: The armoured windscreen side post height, inside frame to inside frame, following the glass surface: If that one measurement favours the AM kit, then we will know the whole canopy is proportionately correct on the AM kit compared to the Tamiya kit.

The other measurement will be the width of the bottom of the pilot's sliding canopy, if they can do it.

One interesting thing to note about the Allison-engined Flying Heritage Il-2 is that the nose has a very slight differences to wartime photos just behind the spinner: No slight stepped "angle" inside the intake "deck" behind the spinner as in WWII photos. The slightly swollen upper intake "body" is, however, the same as in WWII, and Tamiya has this uper nose intake body straight, thin, with rounded corners in cross-section that seem "squarer" on the real thing...:




I tried my best to replicate the nose top: Here the closeness of the photo really throws proportions around, but I just wanted to to give an idea of my corrected AM nose top:




By the way, this is not my previous failed dihedral build: I expect to finish this one.

The nose proportions appear better from far away:



I post yet again this beautiful AM build by Rodriguez (? sorry) just to give a comparative feel for the unmodified outlines of the AM Il-2M3 kit: The taller narrower-looking canopy does look more plausible, the nose intake top being too flat:



The difficult to fix dihedral issue of the AM kit is here completely unfixed, but the viciously dropping right wing is matched here it seems by the left wing, probably by dropping slightly the left wing(!)...:



Supposedly there is a change in the dihedral on the real top wing's surface: flat dihedral inboard of the wing's prominent outer panel join, slight top surface dihedral outboard: I could never see this at all in many photos, especially not on straight wings, and the Tamiya kit imitates the AM kit in ignoring this.

Unfortunately the Tamiya kit also has a tendency to a "droopy" dihedral, but it is at least symmetrical, and nowhere near as bad as the complete re-engineering required on the AM kit: Basically glue the bottom wing's three pieces into one very solid piece, then cut away all the numerous bulky tabs to "imitate" a "normal" wing-fuselage kit assembly, then hugely carve the left rear wingroot's trailing edge, on both contact surfaces, and even slightly the top of the right root wing fairing, to allow the fuselage's right side to sit "deeper than level" on the right rear wing join, while forcefully bending and superglueing the right spar in front (which will offer a huge fight): After that huge fight bending it, it might ask for another similar one when you actually glue the wings to the fuselage: Truly hair-raising considering all the carving I did to narrow the fuselage "push" on the wings to prevent this...

By then the main gear foundations will be very slightly "splayed", because AM never expected you to ever build it with the correct very slight Il-2 dihedral I suppose... Not a big deal.

Worth mentionning is that the plan view of the swept wing matches absolutely perfectly on both AM and Tamiya kits, so they do agree about some things...

If you only want a famous VVS subject, I can't recommend enough the Zvezda La-5 FN instead (superb fit, and the engine cylinders are now striated), especially with the AML's conversion vacu-form glass... The Modelsvit Yak-1b's is also excellent, but the wings want to pinch the bottom fuselage from a correct square into a trapeze, and this makes it unpleasant to build...

Sorry for the length of this, and I hope this will help. I'll try to find out what's what with the Il-2 canopy...

Gaston
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