World War II
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Eduard and Tamiya Spitfire Mk IX nose width
TheModeller
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Posted: Monday, April 15, 2013 - 08:14 PM UTC

Quoted Text

This is what I'll do: I'll get both kits, instead of relying on third parties who can't agree with one another, assemble them without paint, and then match them at the exact same angle, side by side and with real-life photos, and you'll decide who wins.



Well that will make a change, imagine, actually buying the kits you're trashing instead of just making stuff up! What a novel concept.

I don't think anyone will get to 'decide who wins' Gaston, you'll be the one that 'wins' because by the time you've put them together nobody else will care...

Did you find out how much of MH188 is original yet? And how much has been replaced during its history?
Merlin
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Posted: Monday, April 15, 2013 - 09:43 PM UTC
Hi Gaston

Many thanks for posting the photo. I'm sure you'd be the first to agree that, as it's off-centre and with only one end of the measure visible, "it'd never stand up as evidence in court" - but at least it's one in the eye for anyone (myself included) who doubted its existence.

All the best

Rowan
TheModeller
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Posted: Monday, April 15, 2013 - 10:46 PM UTC
Mmmmm, can't edit my post (?) so I'll add a little here and then I'm done with this bun-fight...

Gaston, the measurements you've been given and those you've made are wrong, simple as that.

In the interests of fairness I went back and re-checked all the measurements in my own files, my notes from Edgar, Montforton and re-measured the kit components.

The spinner backplate measurement is 635mms, or 25 inches, thats a well-known, well researched and widely published fact that has been verified and confirmed by far more learned and experienced people than you, its not a figure that can be disputed because its correct...

The Tamiya kit backplate is a fraction, a shade, over 19.7mms in diameter, thats as accurately as I can be bothered to measure, Edgar works to 2 decimal places and says 19.72mms, thats an accurate figure.

Do the math Gaston and you'll find that the Tamiya spinner is about .1 of a millimeter undersized, less then 4mms in reality, I don't know how you've managed to measure the spinner on MH188 and come up with 647mm, either your method, such as it is, is desperately flawed, which having now seen your photograph clearly is, or the spinner on MH188 is no longer an original part.

Did you check to see if was original Gaston?

On to the cowl measurements, I don't know where your contact got his figure of 729.5mms from, which drawing was he using in Monforton, I've used the rivet pattern drawings on pages 3.22 and 3.23, they are the largest and scaled to 1/10th which makes the math easy... The figure across the transverse panel line above the forward exhaust stack is 738.6mms, I still work in inches so that 29.08 inches which agrees with my notes taken from measuring and actual Mk.IX cowling removed from the aircraft, I made it 29 and one-tenth inches in my notes and given that I made the measurements nearly 30 years ago I reckon they are close enough!

The kit cowling measured at the same point is 23mms across.

Once again, do the math Gaston and you'll find a difference of less than a tenth of a millimeter in scale, or 2.6mms in real-life.

Show me that inaccuracy on a real plane Gaston, show me any living individual that needs to sweat it over a 2 or 3 millimetre discrepancy between a toy plastic airplane and a real life Spitfire...

Is the Tamiya Spitfire a perfectly accurate replica down to the tiniest detail? No, its clearly at variance with all the published and researched dimensions... But for the insignificant fractions of difference that exist its still probably the best example of the subject available in kit form and I honestly can't see anyone bothering to try to do a better job.

To close, and again in the interests of fairness, did you ask, or try to find out if any parts of MH188 you measured were still original? From the Ottowa museums own website there is evidence that the airframe has been rebuilt at least 3 times following combat or accident damage.

See, I'm happy to give you the benefit of the doubt Gaston, your measurements are off, so either you're not very good at measuring, or big-arsed bits of MH188 aren't original.
EdgarBrooks
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Posted: Monday, April 15, 2013 - 11:00 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Other source, quoting the SAME Monforton book:
-Largeur capot, juste devant les ouvertures latérales ( à hauteur des échappements ): 729,5 mm.
So which is it? 738.6 mm or 729.5 mm?
Isn't that worrisome that two accounts from the SAME source don't agree by half an inch? Perhaps it isn't an easy figure to gather from the source?


I'd be interested to know what this "other source" might be, since the First Edition is entirely in English, and gives measurements at ordinates (measured in inches, starting from the front of the cowling,) never using words to describe the placing.

Quoted Text

In any case the best real-life measurement I got was the spinner, and the spinner here is something over 25 inches (or 635 mm), since it already measures that off-center


Your measurements are immaterial, since Monforton measured his spinner(s) without any mechanism getting in the way, and arrived at 25".

Quoted Text

As for the Tamiya 1/32 spinner, all I had to go on is the following:
Tamiya au 1:32 =>19,5mm : 624 mm.
And now Edgar: Tamiya's is 19.72mm. : 631 mm.


Are you inferring that I'm telling lies?

Quoted Text

I'll boil it down to the following:
-The Tamiya kit looks completely wrong in this area


Says you (and only you, in the last three years,) and even those who spend their lives working on Spitfires have never found the "faults" you claim to see.
The rest of your rant, including the usual inflammatory rhetoric, is not worthy of consideration and reply
drabslab
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Posted: Monday, April 15, 2013 - 11:05 PM UTC
Am I dreaming, did I really read this thread?

iF THE REPLY WOULD BE "YES" then:

@Gaston: You are truly amazing! You manage to engage quite a few people in an obviously totally useless, and to some even a hugely emotional, discussion about absolutely nothing!

@all others: if you do not care about a spitfire MODEL being o;5 mm inacurate then why on earth do you allow yourself being agitated like this and replying to the provocations???

You could have been modelling instead of wasting your time considering a 0.1mm inaccuracy.

Oh well, I probably don't understand anything

Having said that, i'm gone here
EdgarBrooks
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Posted: Tuesday, April 16, 2013 - 12:06 AM UTC

Quoted Text


@all others: if you do not care about a spitfire MODEL being o;5 mm inacurate then why on earth do you allow yourself being agitated like this and replying to the provocations???
Oh well, I probably don't understand anything


The simple answer is that there are those who carry out genuine research, in order to further the knowledge of fellow modellers, not in order to increase their (self-perceived) standing in the modelling community.
It isn't a matter of us "caring" about non-existent errors, it's a fear that others might be taken in by them, believe them, and get led down a complete cul-de-sac.
TheModeller
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Posted: Tuesday, April 16, 2013 - 12:36 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text


@all others: if you do not care about a spitfire MODEL being o;5 mm inacurate then why on earth do you allow yourself being agitated like this and replying to the provocations???


The simple answer is that there are those who carry out genuine research, in order to further the knowledge of fellow modellers, not in order to increase their (self-perceived) standing in the modelling community.
It isn't a matter of us "caring" about non-existent errors, it's a fear that others might be taken in by them, believe them, and get led down a complete cul-de-sac.



I'll be a little more succinct than Edgar, I just don't like bulls%*t. Make of that what you will.
Jonathan_Mock
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Posted: Wednesday, April 17, 2013 - 07:28 AM UTC

Quoted Text

And let's remember whose side Roy Sutherland's opinion was on the last time I pointed out here numerous gross Spitfire kit errors



So you're happy to accept Roy's word as and when suits your unverified theories based on sketchy observation, but completely ignore and dismiss Edgar's despite the fact that he's one of the top Spitfire boffs out there, who's spend years if not decades sourcing all manner of facts and figures that he can quote?
EdgarBrooks
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Posted: Wednesday, April 17, 2013 - 10:51 AM UTC
Hmmm, yes, well, thank you for the vote of confidence, but I contend there are others with more (a lot more) knowledge than me, but, to move on, a little, regarding this "error" on the Eduard spine:-
I have just laid the Eduard fuselage halves onto Paul Monforton's 1/48 drawings, and they match exactly, by which I mean that I can't draw even a .3mm red line anywhere except exactly on the lines of the drawings. I'm sure that everybody (with one possible exception) will be pleased to hear that.
TheModeller
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Posted: Wednesday, April 17, 2013 - 12:04 PM UTC

Quoted Text

I have just laid the Eduard fuselage halves onto Paul Monforton's 1/48 drawings, and they match exactly, by which I mean that I can't draw even a .3mm red line anywhere except exactly on the lines of the drawings. I'm sure that everybody (with one possible exception) will be pleased to hear that.



Ah but in order to satisfy that one exception, have you tried mating it to the fuselage half of a completely different Spitfire kit to see if it matches up?

It seems that any old Spitfire kit will do...
usethermite
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Posted: Wednesday, April 17, 2013 - 02:12 PM UTC
As my gal pal would say: 0h, forever more! Gaston, do you EVER have fun just buikding a kit? Have yoy ever mssed-up a paint job, heaved a "sigh", go have a beer, and then start over? Man, life is really tooooo short for all this woompus. Anyway, happy modelling- even you, Gaston. JT
EdgarBrooks
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Posted: Wednesday, April 17, 2013 - 06:27 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Ah but in order to satisfy that one exception, have you tried mating it to the fuselage half of a completely different Spitfire kit to see if it matches up?..


Yes, I put it up against the Tamiya kit, and found it to be 33.333% smaller.
MichaelSatin
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Posted: Thursday, April 18, 2013 - 01:55 AM UTC
Well, I don't know about everyone else, but I sure feel better! I hadn't seen Gaston ripping on anything for a couple of weeks or so and I was going into withdrawals. It's especially good when it's a Spitfire rant, those really are the best kind!

I actually stopped building my Tamiya Spitfire a while back. Why? Not because it was so horribly wrong but because it is such a great build and I was going too quickly! I was really looking forward to the Eduard kit too but now I'm worried. Gassy seems to be giving it his grudging approval and that makes me nervous!

Still ENJOYING my modeling after all these years,

Michael
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Posted: Thursday, April 18, 2013 - 08:23 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Hi Gaston

Many thanks for posting the photo. I'm sure you'd be the first to agree that, as it's off-centre and with only one end of the measure visible, "it'd never stand up as evidence in court" - but at least it's one in the eye for anyone (myself included) who doubted its existence.

All the best

Rowan




Thanks Rowan. Note that whether the spinner is 635 mm or 647 mm, that difference is about 0.25 mm in 1/48th, so it is a bit below what would be of any significance for me, even on a smaller item like the spinner. (I place the threshold for trying to correct that size of item in 1/48th at one third mm or thereabouts: Below that, you could sand or just use a thick coat of paint!)

It appears that whatever the problem is with the Tamiya kit, it is not directly related to the spinner diameter.

I'll post here the pictures that led me to believe that there is a problem with the spinner/cowl interaction (1/32 kit at the top):






I have ordered two Spitfire Mk IX overtrees from Eduard, and will get the Tamiya 1/32 kit at the same time: When I get all of this and assemble the kits, we will see better what the differences are between them, and between them and the photos of the real thing.

I'm sure other reviewers might have come up with the same idea eventually anyway, but I'll focus on what I think are the problem areas.

To me the problem with the nose is not subtle, and it is not a matter of something a thick layer of paint or even a bit of sanding could easily solve, especially considering the renowned thinness of the cowl parts...

In two weeks or thereabouts I'll post pictures and more difinitive conclusions, since only having the assembled kits in hand will do apparently...

Gaston

P.S. As for the previous Mk XII/F. XVII controversy, considering the excellent Airfix PR XIX that just came out (and about which you'll note I have no complaints), I think it pretty much amounts to a disavowal by Airfix of their own recent Griffon Spitfires, even taking into account the numerous variant differences... I'll probably compare these kits down the line as well...
TheModeller
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Posted: Thursday, April 18, 2013 - 10:16 AM UTC
And here are 2 other, much better, pictures of Kyrres model that pretty much scupper the entire debate...





This particular burr under your saddle has concerned that sole picture Gaston.

You've got nothing else to support your claim, all the bluster and measurements, shown to be wrong. All the claims of exposing the 'truth' and how people would be indignant for being 'informed', yet you haven't exposed any truth, nor informed anyone!

You've relied on guesses and hyperbole through this whole discussion yet despite all thats been said that counters your guesswork you still come back to that one single picture.

Here is an idea, why not find a different model made by someone else and use that as a basis for your criticism, I think Jonathon Mock has already told you off for doing that to his work.


Quoted Text

...considering the excellent Airfix PR XIX that just came out (and about which you'll note I have no complaints)...



The Airfix PR.XIX has its own issues Gaston, you just don't know enough to notice them!


Quoted Text

I'll probably compare these kits down the line as well...



And thats when I shot him your honour...
J8kob_F
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Posted: Thursday, April 18, 2013 - 11:51 AM UTC
I've Always enjoyed these threads it kind of reminds me of a boxing game. Found this the other day thought it was kind of funny and reminded me of this.

Please see it as a joke as it is such

Jakob
usethermite
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Posted: Thursday, April 18, 2013 - 01:03 PM UTC
How true, how true. LOL. Man, this thread is a head trip. I wonder what Gaston would do with a Lindberg Kit? JT
MichaelSatin
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Posted: Thursday, April 18, 2013 - 01:14 PM UTC
1. Jakob, that cartoon is great. And straight to the point.

2. JT, your callsign is awesome!

Just thought I'd mention those things.

Michael
usethermite
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Posted: Thursday, April 18, 2013 - 01:54 PM UTC
Thanks, Michael. My callsign comes from one of my favorite movies: the first "The Thing (from outer space)".
Jonathan_Mock
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Posted: Saturday, April 27, 2013 - 03:11 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Here is an idea, why not find a different model made by someone else and use that as a basis for your criticism, I think Jonathon Mock has already told you off for doing that to his work.



We're not back to other people's photos finding their way onto Gaston's photobucket account are we?
viper29_ca
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Posted: Saturday, April 27, 2013 - 03:36 AM UTC
Looks like a duck, walks like a duck and talks like a duck, well then it must be a duck.

Instead of worrying about 0.1mm difference, which you can't see, here is a novel idea, take the stick out of you a$$ and build a kit, you never know you might find something called "FUN"
TheModeller
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Posted: Saturday, April 27, 2013 - 05:11 AM UTC

Quoted Text

take the stick out of you a$$ and build a kit



He can't, it's .01mms undersized and thats just not good enough...
andrewj
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Posted: Sunday, April 28, 2013 - 07:15 AM UTC
Can you even measure 0.1mm accurately with the average modellers tools ?.

Andrew
raypalmer
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Posted: Sunday, April 28, 2013 - 08:06 AM UTC
.1mm.... as in literally one rub with 180 grit sandpaper??? As in...

.1 x 48 = 4.8!!!

4.8 MILLIMETER disparity 1:1?!?! Surely that's the epitome of hair splitting. That's practically the difference between a painted and unpainted spitfire cowling.
EdgarBrooks
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Posted: Sunday, April 28, 2013 - 07:26 PM UTC
The supreme irony is, if you talk to Paul Monforton, you will find that, in measuring several real aircraft, he found that overall dimensions, like length and wingspan, could differ by as much as 2" (5+ cm,) which equates to around 2mm in 1/48 scale, so all this talk of wanting accuracy to within fractions of a mm is just so much hot air.
Due to the strain of arrested landings, the FAA found that Seafire fuselages stretched slightly; should we now demand that kit manufacturers should supply two fuselages, so that we can have the option of building a brand new, or heavily worked, airframe?
Edgar