_GOTOBOTTOM
World War II
Discuss WWII and the era directly before and after the war from 1935-1949.
Hosted by Rowan Baylis
Using Tamiya TS-13 gloss as a primer...
GastonMarty
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Quebec, Canada
Joined: April 19, 2008
KitMaker: 595 posts
AeroScale: 507 posts
Posted: Saturday, August 10, 2013 - 11:06 AM UTC

I've recently discovered that this Tamiya product makes a terrific primer, particularly on kits with many puttied areas.

It shrinks into details (no pigments to carry) yet fills and seals porous areas (with polishing or a second coat) in a visible and predictable way... Regular primer will fill details after a few reapeated sandings, or even simply with a single thick coat, and on top of that it is porous itself: I would not use that again on aircrafts, particularly to check the blending-in of canopies, where mask removal revealed the weakening effect of the primer on the paint... Paint that is kept away from the plastic by a weak layer is weaker, since friable regular primer is a structurally weak barrier to the bonding, which is not the case of a TS-13 lacquer gloss coat...

This for me is a huge advance in the appearance of my several putty-intensive kits, and it is useful for most airplane kits I would think... I got the idea from an article by a builder who went by the nickname "Dr Asher", for his 1/48th scratchbuilt B-32...

On vehicles the flat surfaces are not so great for gloss, as it tends to run or poodle on these: I would not necessarily use that on a tank for instance...

Also note TS-13 does not crinkle or attack opaque plastic (unlike the other colored lacquer sprays by Tamiya), but occasionally does frost clear plastic: Not quite a substitute for Future in that case...

The only difficulty is getting, with the spray can, an even, fully wet coat without getting runs, but you can sometimes sop off the runs with minimal trouble if they happen...

Remember, if you fear it is too thick as you spray on the model, that it shrinks to an incredible extent after fully curing, at least on the first coat: The runs are a bigger trouble than putting too much of this gloss on the first coat (puttied areas might need a second coat if they are not polished)... The panel lines sometimes disappear upon spraying when you spray enough to avoid the "orange peel" effect: The trick is to keep moving to avoid runs, and not worry about swamped detail: It will come back later with a vengeance...

Note that flat surfaces like the wings must be kept at a very slightly diving angle, so that the clear does not poodle thicker on the trailing edges but at the leading edges, where the curvature will nullify the "poodling" effect...

Another thing is to spray at night, as with this gloss you will notice the night air is much cleaner because the sunlight is not lifting the dust into the air by heating up surfaces... This gloss does sand very well when fully cured, so don't worry about trapped particles, but keep the impurities to a minimum, as sanding will clog the detail quickly if you do it on a large surface at once...

Gaston

P.S. Future itself is not as suitable for that purpose, as it doesn't shrink as much, and is not anywhere near as tough or sandable, since it tends to peel on sanding.
vanize
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Texas, United States
Joined: January 30, 2006
KitMaker: 1,954 posts
AeroScale: 1,163 posts
Posted: Sunday, August 11, 2013 - 04:06 AM UTC
pretty much all spray primers (and indeed, most spray paints) are lacquers, and therefor etch partially into the plastic to for a strong bond. Lacquer is referred to as a chemically 'hot' paint for a reason.

ever noticed that the lacquer clear coat on top of Vallejo paints makes the Vallejo seem stronger? that because it chemically bonds into the top layer the the acrylic paint too - like it is designed to. that's the whole point of using a lacquer is the advantages you get from it being chemically hot. of course with plastic in the mix, that means you have to be cautious lest it become too hot and etch the plastic too much.

And primer is DESIGNED to be porous so that paints that do not bind as strongly to plastic (or whatever you are painting) can bind well to the porous surface of the primer and use the better adhesion properties of the primer to the lower surface. Thus a primer, pretty much by definition, is an intermediary layer that improves the adhesion of the top coat - NOT a 'weak' layer between the plastic and your top coat mucking things up for you. if it is behaving in the latter fashion, then you are not using a proper primer for the situation at hand or shouldn't be using the primer at all in that situation.

If your finishing layer of paint has strong adhesion properties on its own (say it is also a spray lacquer), then there is no point to using primer anyway, unless you do specifically want the primer's tendency to fill small cracks and whatnot.

while i do appreciate the fact that lack of pigments in the clear coat allows a thinner layer, the clear coat probably would not allow my aging eyes to see the seam flaws i normally rely on a primer coat to reveal to me.

future doesn't do the job because it is essentially clear acrylic enamel, which does not have good adhesion properties on plastic (especially compared to lacquers) since it cannot etch into the top layer of the plastic. Future's complete lack of ability to chemically bond to the top layer of the plastic is precisely the reason why it is a good clear coat on clear plastic parts.

wychdoctor92394
_VISITCOMMUNITY
California, United States
Joined: July 07, 2013
KitMaker: 219 posts
AeroScale: 136 posts
Posted: Sunday, August 11, 2013 - 05:47 AM UTC

Quoted Text


I've recently discovered that this Tamiya product makes a terrific primer, particularly on kits with many puttied areas.

It shrinks into details (no pigments to carry) yet fills and seals porous areas (with polishing or a second coat) in a visible and predictable way... Regular primer will fill details after a few reapeated sandings, or even simply with a single thick coat, and on top of that it is porous itself: I would not use that again on aircrafts, particularly to check the blending-in of canopies, where mask removal revealed the weakening effect of the primer on the paint... Paint that is kept away from the plastic by a weak layer is weaker, since friable regular primer is a structurally weak barrier to the bonding, which is not the case of a TS-13 lacquer gloss coat...

This for me is a huge advance in the appearance of my several putty-intensive kits, and it is useful for most airplane kits I would think... I got the idea from an article by a builder who went by the nickname "Dr Asher", for his 1/48th scratchbuilt B-32...

On vehicles the flat surfaces are not so great for gloss, as it tends to run or poodle on these: I would not necessarily use that on a tank for instance...

Also note TS-13 does not crinkle or attack opaque plastic (unlike the other colored lacquer sprays by Tamiya), but occasionally does frost clear plastic: Not quite a substitute for Future in that case...

The only difficulty is getting, with the spray can, an even, fully wet coat without getting runs, but you can sometimes sop off the runs with minimal trouble if they happen...

Remember, if you fear it is too thick as you spray on the model, that it shrinks to an incredible extent after fully curing, at least on the first coat: The runs are a bigger trouble than putting too much of this gloss on the first coat (puttied areas might need a second coat if they are not polished)... The panel lines sometimes disappear upon spraying when you spray enough to avoid the "orange peel" effect: The trick is to keep moving to avoid runs, and not worry about swamped detail: It will come back later with a vengeance...

Note that flat surfaces like the wings must be kept at a very slightly diving angle, so that the clear does not poodle thicker on the trailing edges but at the leading edges, where the curvature will nullify the "poodling" effect...

Another thing is to spray at night, as with this gloss you will notice the night air is much cleaner because the sunlight is not lifting the dust into the air by heating up surfaces... This gloss does sand very well when fully cured, so don't worry about trapped particles, but keep the impurities to a minimum, as sanding will clog the detail quickly if you do it on a large surface at once...

Gaston

P.S. Future itself is not as suitable for that purpose, as it doesn't shrink as much, and is not anywhere near as tough or sandable, since it tends to peel on sanding.



Does it come in a bottle? I don't airbrush (breathing difficulties)...
vanize
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Texas, United States
Joined: January 30, 2006
KitMaker: 1,954 posts
AeroScale: 1,163 posts
Posted: Sunday, August 11, 2013 - 08:12 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Does it come in a bottle? I don't airbrush (breathing difficulties)...



the TS-13 referred to is a spray can.
Joel_W
Staff MemberAssociate Editor
AUTOMODELER
_VISITCOMMUNITY
New York, United States
Joined: December 04, 2010
KitMaker: 11,666 posts
AeroScale: 7,410 posts
Posted: Sunday, August 11, 2013 - 09:43 AM UTC
Gaston, Tamiya's Lacquer gloss coat, is exactly that, a top clear coat, it's not a primer, nor does it do what a real primer does. I've used Testors lacquer based Glosscoat & Dullcoat for nearly 40 years, but never as a primer.

Tamiya's Gray Primer is about as good of a lacquer based model primer as you can get. It bonds extremely well to clean raw plastic, and once dry sands and polishes to a very smooth surface. The issue with it covering and filling in detail and seams is due to the amount of paint you're applying with a rattle can. I always use it applied with an air gun. It's much more controllable that way. Same for applying clear coats. I always do it with an airbrush, never with a rattle can.

Joel
GastonMarty
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Quebec, Canada
Joined: April 19, 2008
KitMaker: 595 posts
AeroScale: 507 posts
Posted: Monday, August 12, 2013 - 04:16 AM UTC

Quoted Text



that's the whole point of using a lacquer is the advantages you get from it being chemically hot. of course with plastic in the mix, that means you have to be cautious lest it become too hot and etch the plastic too much.



The advantage of TS-13 over other lacquer paint is that it does NOT "crinkle" plastic that is opaque: Other Tamiya laquers in the same TS range are "hotter" and WILL crinkle the bare plastic. That is the huge advantage of this one TS-13 bottle in that Tamiya range...



Quoted Text


And primer is DESIGNED to be porous so that paints that do not bind as strongly to plastic (or whatever you are painting) can bind well to the porous surface of the primer and use the better adhesion properties of the primer to the lower surface. Thus a primer, pretty much by definition, is an intermediary layer that improves the adhesion of the top coat - NOT a 'weak' layer between the plastic and your top coat mucking things up for you. if it is behaving in the latter fashion, then you are not using a proper primer for the situation at hand or shouldn't be using the primer at all in that situation.



Any decent acrylic paint should bind strongly to plastic by itself, if fully cured, and Tamiya acrylics do. Plastic is not a hard material to bind to, unlike metal...

Peel off a mask that has had primer and paint sprayed over it, and you will see the edge is uneven because the hardened paint peels away differently than the soft friable primer: Never use primer over masked clear parts, because the edges will crack away unevenly: This proves it is a structurally weak layer, or it would peel the same way...


Quoted Text


If your finishing layer of paint has strong adhesion properties on its own (say it is also a spray lacquer), then there is no point to using primer anyway, unless you do specifically want the primer's tendency to fill small cracks and whatnot.



Exactly my point above: Unlike on metal, most model paints adhere quite adequately to plastic or putty on their own, therefore the only reason to use primer is as a filler, or to check for flaws, but actual filler sanded down does the job better, and you can check for flaws even better with gloss...

The huge advantage of gloss over primer is that it is not matte, and tends to un-matte porous surfaces, leading to a more predictable paint appearance...


Quoted Text

while i do appreciate the fact that lack of pigments in the clear coat allows a thinner layer, the clear coat probably would not allow my aging eyes to see the seam flaws i normally rely on a primer coat to reveal to me.



On the contrary, by shining light on it you see far more, but the biggest advantage is that it can seal porosities (after two coats sometimes) while still shrinking far better around details than thick, particle-laden primer. (I am speaking here of my Tamiya's spray can experience with their fine white or fine grey primer, and not airbrushed but straight from the can, same with the gloss)


Quoted Text

future doesn't do the job because it is essentially clear acrylic enamel, which does not have good adhesion properties on plastic (especially compared to lacquers) since it cannot etch into the top layer of the plastic.



True.

Most acrylic paints that I am familiar with adhere well enough to plastic to not need primer at all, and Tamiya acrylic are thus sandable up to a point if fully cured over a day or two: Clear TS-13 is also sandable, but not Future, as you say, since it's bond with plastic is weaker than even Tamiya acrylic paints.

The problem I had with Tamiya primer is that by the time the model was fully smooth and ready for paint, given the heavy mods I do, the model was already too thickly covered by primer alone, which also fouled the clear part by breaking unevenly owing to the weakened adhesion under mask peeling.

I might still use a thin coat of primer instead of gloss on an unmodified sharp-edged and flat-plate tank, but never on an aircraft... The reason I would do this is that primer does help mitigate pigment migration away from sharp edges, while gloss does not behave well on flat surfaces (it wants to make a "poodle" in one corner)

Gaston

PS. As a side note, I have also find glossing over paint and under decals to be useless if you float the decal on Solvaset, or even Micro-sol: I've never seen silvering this way, because the decals are attacked from both sides and are melted permanently into the paint... The only problem is that decal placement must be fast and precise because the moveable time is limited: It is unforgiving for delicate alignments (I prefer subjects with roundels over star or crosses for that reason alone), and once dry the decals cannot be removed without taking off the whole paintjob... So the model is glossed under the paint, not over it...
Joel_W
Staff MemberAssociate Editor
AUTOMODELER
_VISITCOMMUNITY
New York, United States
Joined: December 04, 2010
KitMaker: 11,666 posts
AeroScale: 7,410 posts
Posted: Monday, August 12, 2013 - 06:50 AM UTC
Gaston, I only prime when airbrushing white, yellow, Red, bright green, etc. . I also prime when I've scratch build using Evergreen plastic as the white vs the gray plastic has been an issue at times in getting a consistent base color without having to apply more color coats then I really want to.
Your primer issues were based on using rattle cans, which I completely agree with. I apply the Tamiya primer with an air brush cut 1:1 with lacquer thinner. I've never had any issues of Tamiya primer filling in seams or covering raised details.

Decaling on flat paint without a smooth gloss surface isn't the preferred method that the vast majority of modelers use. You're using Solvaset, which is a very strong decal solvent. I've damaged very thin decals in the past using it. I prefer the Micro system, and rarely find the need for Solvaset, and as you said, decal work time is almost nil on flat surface. Silvering can 1st appear after you have clear coated the model, and by then it's too late to correct the issue.

I haven't used decal masks, but I do mask with Tamiya tape as needed. I never prime over the masking, as it makes no sense. When I prime, I prime the entire model, then mask. So the issue of primer and paint applied over a mask is a non-issue for me. Besides, priming after you mask just thickens that paint application over the base color needlessly.

Joel
 _GOTOTOP