First, let me say this kit is an absolute gem! I just received it a couple days ago (Thank you Cooper models!)and am extremely impressed. If you are familiar with the resin Lavochkin kits from Vector, this one is in the same league, quite possibly better.

Question 1. - Has anyone built it yet? I may have to dive in after finishing my current project.

Question 2. - I am strongly considering backdating/modifying it to represent an I.A.R. 80. Unless I have missed something, the kit is already most of the way there. According to Radu Brinzen's excellent book, the principle external difference between the 80 and 81 is the bracing for the horizontal stabilizers, and the fuselage modifications for the centerline bomb trapeze. The wing of course also has hard points for bomb carriage. The kit however does not contain a bomb trapeze, and the assembly instructions do not show one. There also appear to be none of the accommodations to the fuselage or wings for bomb carriage. Perhaps this represents an oversight or error in the kit, but suits my plans perfectly. It would seem all I need to do is omit the horizontal tail braces, and make any necessary external changes to accommodate earlier versions, depending on my ultimate choice of markings.
Has anyone else given any thought to such a conversion?

On a side note, comparing the Icaerodesign kit with the old LTD offering, the LTD does not come out all that badly after all. It looks to me that it can be improved with some minor adjustments. That, a scratch-built cockpit and landing gear (to replace the horrible 'legs' in the kit) and I think it may be made respectable. I may be tempted to make something of the two kits I have, unless Hobby Boss decides to give us a new one sometime soon!

Try asking your questions here: http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php?s=8a215f2240cc61c16de32b3f2bd917b8&showforum=2

I think Radu Brinzen hangs around that forum as Radub. You may be able to email him from there. The forum is in English.

Jean Barby's build:

http://www.network54.com/Forum/47751/thread/1368712689/IAR+81+C

To me the Icarodesign cowling looks noticeably too prominent in diameter:




The LTD cowling looks less prominent in diameter, depending on angle, but the Icarodesign windshield looks more accurate (build by Patrick):





Gaston

And the only one thing I can see in IAR-80/81 is a beautiful shape of the tail taken straight from PZL P.24
it is just completely off topic

The I.A.R.81-C was the final version of the 80/81. To make an eariler version, you will need to change the wing weapons and rescribe some wing panels. Also pay attention to the second oil cooler, which was placed in the left wing. When the cooler was in place, there were "gills" behind the exhausts.
From No. 201 upwards, the nose and wings were extended, so if you do an aircraft up to that number, you have to pay attention to these details.
You must also pay attention to camouflage and markings as they changed a few times.

Now, a quick note about the bomb-carrying equipment on the I.A.R.81-C. What does 80 and 81 mean? Basically, the I.A.R.80 was a pure fighter and the I.A.R.81 was a fighter dive-bomber, i.e. the fighter equipped with bomb-carrying equipment. As the name implies, the I.A.R.81-C was planned as a fighter dive-bomber and when the planes left the factory, they were all equipped with a ventral trapese bomb carrier and under-wing bomb carriers. However, the I.A.R.81-C was equipped with the larger MG 151/20 cannons in the wings, so in order to fit these a large hole had to be made into the forward wing spars. As this weakened the wing, a decison was taken that the use of the plane as a dive bomber should be curtailed. So, the I.A.R.81-C, although a bomber by design, was never used as a bomber and was used purely as a fighter. The ventral bomb carrier was removed from some (the belly was smooth), some had only the carrier but the trapese was removed, while others kept the complete ventral carrier, trapese and all until the end of their careeres. You will need to check each individual plane to figure out which had what. However, the wing bomb-carrying equipment was never removed from the I.A.R.81-C because it was used to carry drop tanks.

I think that the LTD kit would be easier to use to recreate an earlier version. There are a few areas to fix, but it may be easier to modify plastic than resin.

As for the I.A.R.81 "using the tail of the PZL 24", well things are not as simple as that. The I.A.R. factory purchased the manufacturing licence for the PZL P-11 and P-24 and manufactured these planes. The factory also purchased the licence to build the Italian SM-79 (which is why the next plane in line after "79" was the "80"). For the I.A.R. factory the PZL was the first monocoque all-metal type of aircraft and the SM-79 was a tubular framework airframe with cantilever wings and both of them served to teach the factory how to manufacture such planes. At the time when the I.A.R.80 was developed, the factory "borrowed" this acquired knowledge, i.e. it "borrowed" the idea of a tubular structure with cantilever wing for the front of the plane and a monocoque tail but did not copy either directly. A direct copy would have implied a "licence" but no such licence was ever sought or acquired, even though I.A.R. did their best to acquire licences for any other patented designs (Handley-Page control surfaces for example) when needed. Considering that I.A.R. already had a good relationship with PZL, it would not have been much of a problem to purchase such a licence (the I.A.R.80 was designed before the fall of Poland). The rear section (bottom only) of the I.A.R. looks like the similar section of the PZL, but it was different in structure (it had to be stronger to cope with the heavier airframe). The top coaming from the cockpit to the tail was developed by I.A.R. and shared nothing with the PZL unit.

I hope this helps,
Radu

Thank you Radu, this is very helpful!

The LTD may require a LOT of work, but you may be right, particularly concerning the changes to the wings necessary for the Icaerodesign kit. This is especially true, since I am considering doing #26 from the early series.
I didn't realize the changes to the wing were so extensive in the later versions.

What a beautiful and colorful plane. Will you share the build with us?

Too bad it is in resin, which is not my cup of tea.



Jelger

If you want to do No.26, the LTD kit is much closer, it has the correct-length fuselage and wings. The lcaerodesign kit will ned some major surgery for it. Maybe you can kitbash the lcaerodesign and LTD kits.

Radu

I have something of a personal policy against kit-bashing $100 models!

Besides, I think there is a pretty stark difference in the finish between the two kits, enough so that it will obviously look like two different kits mashed together.
Nope, I think based on your advice, I will keep the Icaerodesign kit as an 81. It does give me a great reference point for scratch building parts for the LTD kit though!
Maybe I'll do a side-by-side build. Or maybe someone will give us a new injection-molded 80 in the very near future!

To Jelger - resin is not at all bad, especially when it's as well-executed as this kit is! You should give it a go.

Hello,




Not injection molded obviously but Icaerodesign are planning to release an I.A.R.80 as well if I'm not wrong.

Jean-Luc

Wonderful thread- merely fueling my enthusiasm for my next build.

..in which case, I will no doubt buy one, thus causing Tamiya to release an injection molded 1/48th kit within weeks!

At four years between 1/48th WWII aircraft kit releases for Tamiya, and FIVE years for Hasegawa (so far), I think you should be plenty safe...

I find it strange people are still assuming we live in the same modelling world as we did just 10-15 years ago...

Read most mid-late 90s vintage magazines, and you will see just how chock-full of kits, decals and resin AM releases we were back then... Just the output of Aeromaster and Meteor Productions, not to mention Paragon and many others, was staggering... Many modelling magazines today have a very abbreviated news section, and it isn't entirely due to the internet...

Gaston

Well, I for one would love to see a mainstream injection moulded kit of the 80/81. I will gladly help anyone in evey possible way to make that happen.
Radu

Radu,
I was taking about the shape only, I am no expert as of design or either PZL or IAR aircrafts. And BTW, IAR fighter is a one good looking aircraft. And I also hope that in Romania you will be able to find more staff on PZL aircrafts used in Romania, (PZL P.11, P.24, -37, or -23/43) or since not much can be found on those in Poland.

I was involved in the research and translation of a book on this subject (Polish aircraft in Romania) that will be published next year by Tratus in their PKL series http://stratusbooks.pl/str/forecast.php?page=1

Radu

I have no confusion about "the world we live in," I was merely commenting on the fact that after I empty my bank account on behalf of a particular model kit, a much less costly, and often excellent injection-molded alternative seems to appear.
A couple years ago, I bought several of the excellent Vector Lavochkin kits at about $100 each, which were again the only game in town, apart from LTD. Shortly thereafter, ICM and Zvezda gave us very nice, and very inexpensive kits of nearly the entire range of Lavochkins.

And thus your duty to the cause of the modelling community was completed

My comment was merely that this La-5 "coincidence" is hardly typical these days, and is increasingly less likely to happen as time goes on: Don't be afraid of unfortunate coicidences anymore...

The Zvezda La-5 series is one of the rare good quality 1/48 WWII releases of the past fifteen years that did not make us wait for years and years before coming out: The Zvezda Su-2 that is now just coming out has been awaited for years if not decades, as was the excellent ICM Hs-126... It is getting rarer to be taken by surprise in 1/48th...

Nine of the biggest makers, including all the biggest Chinese names, have produced a total of roughly a dozen all-new 1/48th WWII aircraft kits in the past FOUR years... Most of them are actually a lot worse than a good quality resin kit...

You may still be unlucky through bad Karma, but take heart: The risk is now extremely small and getting smaller at a rapid rate: My impression is you can now invest in good 1/48th resin oddballs in full confidence...

Gaston

Gaston, a lot of people are still put off by the cost and at times complexity of all resin kits, so they will buy injection kits as and when they become available.

Could you provide us all with a list of these kits that you say have been released? Off the top of my head I can think of the Italeri Hurricanes, GWH P-61, Hobby Boss family of Me262s and Ta152s. That's got me a quarter of the way to your dozen without including the variants spun off the main moulds.

Injection moulds cost a great deal of money to tool up, so you have to appreciate why companies don't invest in brand new kits every year like they used to. Outlay versus return plays a very big part in why companies tool up what they do?

Now it looks like some of the smaller Eastern European companies are investing in better mould technology. Perheps that will lead us to seeing the more "esoteric" aircraft released in injected form.

..having just PURCHASED the Icaerodesign kit, I hardly think I'm demonstrating any reticence when it comes to expensive resin kits.

Let's see, just off the top of my head:
Tamiya - Il-2
Eduard Spitfires IX, VIII
Eduard Bf-109E-1, 3, 4 and 7
ICM LaGG-3 (three different series production aircraft)
Zvezda Bf-109F
Zvezda La-5
Zvezda La-5FN
Zvezda Yak-3

That's at least 14 different, new kits, and I haven't even touched on Airfix, Revell, Trumpeter or Hobby Boss.
In truth, I think we have a pretty good selection of new WWII kits coming to market, although they might not be the long-ignored type each of us has been pining for. As Matt J. points-out, the capital investment in creating a mold means kit makers are naturally going to kit models they believe will sell well, so I understand their hesitation to do less well-known types. This does however leave the door open for companies willing to take a chance, like Xuntong and their nice Tu-2. (which I also plan to buy!)

I never said you had any reticence... Just that fearing the terrific pace of 1/48th scale WWII aircraft releases these days is a bit over the top: I have happily turned to 1/350 ships in the meantime...




"Tamiya - Il-2": An inaccurate junk kit with a 1/53 scale canopy that nobody wanted. First Tamiya all new 1/48th WWII release in 44 months (a breath-taking pace by any standards)


"Eduard Spitfires IX, VIII.": I said ALL new so that counts only as one, and that indeed was a great release. The most useful release in about fifteen years, litterally several decades in the waiting...


"Eduard Bf-109E-1, 3, 4 and 7": ALL-NEW so counts as one... Too long in the fuselage by quite a bit, and the only All new Eduard quaterscale WWII kit in four years: FW-190D-9 doesn't count as all-new...

"ICM LaGG-3 (three different series production aircraft)":

November 2008 release: That's well over four years ago: Check your memory...


"Zvezda Bf-109F": Great release of the first accurate Me-109 kit ever: Had been waited on for only about three decades...


"Zvezda La-5/Zvezda La-5FN": That's still one ALL-new. A rare genuine surprise as stated above, though the La-5 glass is hosed in cross-section no matter what Serguey says, it's still hosed...

"Zvezda Yak-3": Another genuine surprise, but not that good (intakes, windshield rake etc).

Quote: "That's at least 14 different, new kits"

Funny, I count only 6 by the simple criterias I clearly stated...




Let me do that for you:

Number of 1/48th WWII all-new aircraft kits released in the past four years by the following makers:

Trumpeteer: 0

Revell: 2 (Mosquito -so awful and pointless it really shouldn't count- and the fairly good PV-1)

Hasegawa: 0

Tamiya: 1 (Il-2)

Eduard: 1 (Their Me-109E, since the FW-190D doesn't count as all-new)

ICM: 1 (Hs 126: A truly wonderful kit by the way: One of my favourite ever once I got past my prejudice on the subject)

Zvezda: 2 (Me-109F and Yak-3)

Hobby Boss: 3 (see below for explanation)

10 releases in four years so far, for nearly the whole mainstream industry...

Even if you added the revived Airfix, it is not that many: About 2 basically, the Spitfire/Seafire XII/XVII sharing the same (inaccurate) tooling, thus counting only as one all-new tool, and the Me-109E. Only the very recent PR XIX could be considered of superior quality, though the Me-109E was not bad. The number of all-new Hobby Boss kits (mostly poor or dirt poor, sorry to say) is actually less impressive than one would think...

If you remove the really zero-value Revell Mosquito, and add the Airfix output to the list, including the just out PR XIX, that makes 12 mainstream releases over four years, or exactly 3 per year. This is for the combined production of NINE major manufacturers (which almost includes them all, minus short-run Eastern block makers)...

This is 0.33 kits per year per maker.




As long as you don't want any US, Japanese, British, Italian or Russian floatplanes, transports or bombers...

Other than that, we're just swimming in stuff!




Is it Xu-Ton or Aurora? If that really is all there is to hope for, then thank God for 1/350 scale ships. You should see the wood decks we get...

Gaston

I guess there is no pleasing our resident expert on all things WW2 48th scale related.

Most reviewers have pointed out the short comings of the Hobby Boss kits and are prepared to live with them. At the price they sell for where I live I know where my money goes to.

The Tamiya Il-2 is only criticised by yourself for the most. Most of us non rivet counters and happy to build it and know that when it is completed it looks like an Il-2.

Now that you've switched your focus to ships, does that means we won't see your big filled Spitfire MkXII?

Gaston, by all means point out the flaws in the kits that you are able to check personally, eg your work on the P-61, but for the rest please let the rest of us get on with enjoying those kits that we buy........

Hi there

Come on everyone - you always bite, don't you. Don't let this interesting thread on an unusual subject degenerate into yet another boring list of the supposed bad points in every other kit released...

All the best

Rowan

I have no idea about who "Gaston" is, but I have come to a couple of quick conclusions about "talking" to him in the future!

Rowan is right.
So far as the I.A.R. 80/81 is concerned, I have been wanting a better kit for years. I will be happy to buy Icaerodesigns version of the 80 should they come out with one. I will be happier still if someone comes along with a good injection molded one!