I have started building Dragons 1/32 Bf110C-7. Having trawled the internet for reviews I found a few suggestions that the information for the camo colours in the instructions may be wrong, RLM 76, 75 74, but no one seems to say categorically that it's wrong! It is suggested that for a "C" variant the camo should be RLM 65,71,02 and the box art seems to depict that.

Does anyone know for certain?

Also the the kit gives you a choice of intake filters on the port wing, one of which is a sand filter. This is on an extra sprue along with a long pito tube. I know that the pito tube is wrong (it is actually shown being fitted as well as the correct one in the instruction!) and it seems odd to have a sand filter on an aircraft operation in Russia. The sand filter is shown fitted on the painting guides.

So can anyone tell me if this aircraft should have a sand filter or the normal type?

A sand filter sounds likely, given the dusty conditions of the endless steppes. I have a fair amount of reference on this plane- I'll take a look this weekend- so many schemes are available!

Hi Mal,

Going in without a safety net here, the fact that a tropical filter was used in planes operating in the east front is plausible.
I recall several 109 using them in the crimea region. Could be a plane built for desert ops and diverted to the east front due to urgent replacements or so.
No doubt a photo of the real thing would help.

As for the camo issue, that's a pandora box. I'm sure both camouflages are acceptable and even others would be

Cheers

Hi Chuck, I thought of that but the other scheme in the box operated in Norway, and is shown with the sand filter? With the wrong pito tube on the same, additional, sprue as well it just seems wrong. I would like to fit it as it adds a nice bit of detail but it would seem odd on a none desert painted machine? I would be very interested in anything that you can turn up, thanks
PM coming your way.




Hi Pedro, Yep I thought of that possibility as well. I thought that I had found a photo of the real thing while doing another Google search, but it turned out to be a black and white photo of a very well done diorama. The builder didn't use the tropical filter and the camo was the 65,70,02. It looked really good so I'm leaning towards that camo and no sand filter Of course a photo of the actual plane will emerge as soon as I finish it like that showing the other scheme and the sand filter

I won't sweat it either way but it would be nice to know for sure. I think that I have probably now seen every build of this model on the internet and I could paint it yellow with black spots and no one could tell me that I was wrong

110 colors are a real can of worms indeed, even 110 experten won't commit to any real standards such as "C" series were finished in "X" scheme, "D" series, in "Y" scheme etc. Add to that I would not trust Dragon (or other kit maker) color call outs for anything without verification.

The challenge comes as unlike the 109 series for example, where the aircraft came out sequentially, and therefore it is easier to determine at least a factory paint scheme based on whether the aircraft was a E/F/G6/G14/G10/K, the 110 "C" and "D" (and some E IIRC) series where built in parallel.

Also, it seems the factory was painting them in different schemes based on their intended roles and where they were going to be initially deployed.

Add to that the fact that with stellar performance of the 110 resulting in a lot of damaged aircraft, they were often field/depot repaired and repainted in the current theater scheme at that time. Even cockpit colors are hard to nail down as I've seen overall 02, half/half 02/66 (both front rear split and top/bottom split), and overall 66.

I ran into that when I built my 1/32 110D-3 (here on Aeroscale), but was fortunate to find some color photos of sister aircraft which verified the scheme I thought mine was painted in (which was a depot repaint in 74/75/76) and I went with a half/half 02/66 cockpit as I surmised the depot would have done that when they repainted it.

If you have some photos of the airframe you want to build, you might be able to make some educated guesses, but barring that I would consult known good references (such as an Eaglecals sheet, and other good sources) and try to determine a consensus based on that.

Doug

Thanks for that Doug, if nothing else it is nice to know that no one knows

There is time to trawl the internet some more to try and verify the scheme but, at the moment I like the look of the 65,71,02 scheme as I have seen one on the internet painted that way and it looks cool

Can you post a link to you blog please?

Hi Mal

Good to see you underway.

It's definitely worth getting hold of John Vasco's book on the Bf 110C, 'D and 'E - it's a goldmine of info. There are some shots in it of 'C-7s (one of them a re-issued 'C-2) operating on the Eastern Front with tropical filters. The camo is really hard to judge in the B&W photos due to the lighting and not knowing the film stock used, but there doesn't appear to be a great deal of contrast as normally associated with RLM 02/70. There are however some nice colour shots of a 'C-5 in what appears to be RLM 74/75.

All the best

Rowan

Great, thanks for that Rowan, I'll see about getting the book

Vasco and Estanislau's book indeed has a nice profile of S9+LP after it's upgrade, the colors are 74/75. This makes sense if it was overhauled- a repaint would be a logical assumption. Looks like a fun project- I'll be one of many following your build, o Masked Man!

Thanks Chuk, does that mean that the cockpit was re-painted RLM66? Does the profile show the sand filter?
Nice to know that you will be following this but I won't be adding any extra detail. I would love to go to town on it but I am using it to re-find my modelling mojo and its working. I am also considering entering it into the Scale Modelworld competition next year in the OOB category. I also have many models that I want to get built so super detailing them is out of the question.

Mal, I'm not Chuk of course, but yes, the profile (and pic of the real thing) shows the sand filter. It also notes that this one has an armoured windscreen fitted.

During the depot repair/upgrade from C-2 to C-7 is is very likely that the cockpit was either all or partially repainted in 66. You can do as I ended up doing in my build and doing the half/half (although initially I did all 66 and then repainted the lower sections of the rear cockpit area in 02).

I've got your email address (from our Hurri mask bit on LSM) so I'll scan the page and email it to you later.

Doug

Great, thanks Doug that sorts it all out and I would love a scanned copy of the page, I will be able to print it off and include it in the booklet of images that will accompany this on the competition table The kit does include the armoured wind screen

I had originally planned on painting the cockpit RLM66 but on looking at builds via the internet I had changed my mind, I'm glad that I have the correct colour now, so thanks again. I may just paint it half and half, I haven't decided yet, but that does suggest a repaint Then thinking about it a little more I think that the idea of the RLM66 was to make the cockpit area(clearly)darker to to make it less visible from above, so leaving the floor in RLM02 would seem to defeat that object. You see how difficult it becomes to make a simple decision like this!

Mal,

I've emailed you, so let me know if you have any issues with it.

As to the cockpit, the RLM66 color was to cut down on glare for the crew (reflecting off the lighter 02 color) not really any camo benefit (as glass would reflect light anyway - so a cover would be fitted for full camo effect)

Your right on "simple decisions" with the earlier 110's, I agonized over many "simple" decisions on my build, as it's tough to change once you get things put together.

Doug

Tropical filters were used on Bf 110s of both SKG 210 and ZG 1 on the Russian Front. First mention of the type was on 10th August 1941 when Bf 110 E-2/Trop, S9+DN, W. Nr. 4450 of 5./SKG 210 was 40% damaged on a combat mission west of Nowgorod, pilot Ofw. Ludwig Mergard being wounded. From interviews with Wolfgang Schenck and Wolf Meyer-Erlach, I was able to establish that the trop gear was obtained after the Geschwaderkommodore of SKG 210 Walter Storp, used his contacts and influence at RLM to have the required equipment sent to the unit to combat the dusty, dry, conditions prevalent in the summer in that theatre of operations.

As for camo colours, as others have said, once you reach 1941 you hit the changeover period. And once into that changeover period, from my interviews with groundcrew at the many 'Wespentreffen' I attended in the 19080s & 1990s, their remit was to get aircraft combat-ready for the next operation, not worry about getting the colours correct. Mix 'n' match was the order of the day sometimes, and if supplies did not come through, that's what they certainly did. Front-line service meant it was not 'this and that' to rigid RLM rules, a horrendous thought to modern day modellers seeking perfection. Hence the real problem of identifying exactly what camo colours are applied in the mid-war years to 110s...

And also the golden opportunity to stand up to the Farbengestapo and dare them to prove your choice of colours is incorrect.

Hi John,
Thank you very much for that and it confirms what the Luftwaffe SIG, and others are telling me.




Yes Jessie I agree However I need to get it right as far as anyone would know as I do intend to enter this into the competition at Telford next year. There is no accounting for the knowledge of the Judges and not every judge, if any, will have the full knowledge of the correct colour schemes etc of all the models of all the different nationalities entered in the category. So the information that I now have gives me the best likelyhood of the colours, and other details that this machine caried. I feel that I will have to include a booklet detailing my research as well as the photos of the process of painting on the markings.

I'm even more glad to have started this model as I have learned plenty of new stuff about the Luftwaffe's habits about painting and use of equipment, and it all seems like common sense prevailed; which is what you would hope for in time of war

Sorry to keep harping on about this but you are all too kind in providing the answers do you think that the undersides would have been left in RLM65 and not repainted in RLM76? It makes sense not to repaint it as they are both blues and it would take unnecessary time, what are your thoughts? Or is this just another can of worms

I went with 76 for my undersides, as I figured that when the aircraft was stripped down for repair, etc. it would have needed some repainting anyway, and the color photos I referenced of other aircraft in that group looked 76 vs 65.

But, there are some aircraft that appeared to have been just "touched up" as they still retained some 02 areas on the top, and for one of those I would think 65 was certainly a possibility.

Doug

Thanks Doug, looks like 76 then