_GOTOBOTTOM
Early Aviation
Discuss World War I and the early years of aviation thru 1934.
Info req on McCudden's S.E.5a
Holdfast
Staff MemberPresident
IPMS-UK KITMAKER BRANCH
#056
_VISITCOMMUNITY
England - South West, United Kingdom
Joined: September 30, 2002
KitMaker: 8,581 posts
AeroScale: 4,913 posts
Posted: Sunday, December 22, 2013 - 08:25 PM UTC
I have started to build the Encore Models S.E.5a It's a very nice kit with etch and resin so I'm looking forward to my first 1/32 scale WWI build

My plan is to place it in a field full of poppys with the, included, figure of McCudden painted in greys; this is for IPMS Kitmaker club stand at Scale Modelworld November 2014, where our them is the start of WWI. It is held over the remembrance week end so the idea is to also honour past and serving armed forces

The kit has decals (although I will be using paint masks of course) for 2 of McCudden's aircrfat in 3 schemes; my question is about B4891, which is shown with a spinner taken from an LVG shot down by McCudden.

Q. I have searched for pictures of LVGs but I can't find any that have spinners nearly as large as the one on the kit, so can anyone confirm that the spinner in the kit is accurate, or can you show me pictures of LVGs with a spinner?

Thanks for your time and hang around because I'm sure that I will have plenty more questions
JackFlash
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Colorado, United States
Joined: January 25, 2004
KitMaker: 11,669 posts
AeroScale: 11,011 posts
Posted: Sunday, December 22, 2013 - 09:18 PM UTC
I have a couple of images of B4891. Also there should be some in Alex Revell's books on 56 Sqn. I am of the opinion that the spinner did not come from an LVG. I know that Ball was photographed with a spinner from a Morane Saulnier N or I. McCudden's was probably a cut down version of one of these. IMHO.



Holdfast
Staff MemberPresident
IPMS-UK KITMAKER BRANCH
#056
_VISITCOMMUNITY
England - South West, United Kingdom
Joined: September 30, 2002
KitMaker: 8,581 posts
AeroScale: 4,913 posts
Posted: Sunday, December 22, 2013 - 10:08 PM UTC
Thanks Stephen, those pics show that the kit part is correct, it is definitely too big to be from an LVG, from the pictures that I found.

Do you have a side view of this aircraft? I'm just wanting to confirm the lack of head rest faring
JackFlash
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Colorado, United States
Joined: January 25, 2004
KitMaker: 11,669 posts
AeroScale: 11,011 posts
Posted: Monday, December 23, 2013 - 06:38 AM UTC

Quoted Text

". . .Do you have a side view of this aircraft? I'm just wanting to confirm the lack of head rest faring."



This is all I have on that.
JackFlash
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Colorado, United States
Joined: January 25, 2004
KitMaker: 11,669 posts
AeroScale: 11,011 posts
Posted: Monday, December 23, 2013 - 10:12 AM UTC
Encore parts in a build.


Quoted Text

". . .My submission for this Campaign is the Wingnut Wings SE5a "Hisso" which I'll be doing as Capt. James TB McCudden's 56 Sqn. 4891 as flown on 30 Jan 1918 from Baizieux, France when he shot down two Jasta 10 aircraft over Anneux for his 45th and 46th victories of an eventual record of 57 kills.
I've had this kit since it hit the market when WNW released their initial four subjects and have been more or less planning and researching the build for almost two years. The "market" is replete with excellent material including after market components and reference publications; many of the latter contradictory and confusing at times.
In keeping with the Build Log format I'll launch this with a photo of the kit. The quality is outstanding and, with some added after market accesories and some "scratched" components this promises to be a great addition to the display case.





Quoted Text

References are illustrated, all excellent in their own rights however the Windsock Special "SE5/SE5a Squadrons" volume and the Osprey Aviation Elite Units "No. 56 Sqn. RAF/RFC" pubs stand out as exceptional, the latter's cover painting illustrating my subject. The Windsock Worldwide March/April 09 issue has the Ray Rimell build of the kit. I should also mention the tremendous amount of reference material provided in the Kit Instruction Booklet, a volume on it's own! I'll be mentioning the contradictions I encountered in the References as the build progresses.





Quoted Text

My original plan to replicate this subject was to use the WNW Kit augmented by conversion items from the Encore SE5a McCudden Kit. That's still the "plan" however I discovered that the cockpit component with the "bulged" opening does not fit the WNW fuselage,being approx. one mm. wider at the join. I have now ordered the Squadron's conversion set (which is actually for McCudden's 4853) however, with the spinner, prop, exhausts and narrow chord elevators from the Encore kit, I should be O.K. The decals will be a mix from the original kit, Encore kit, and Pheon's excellent "SE5a Aces in France" sheet 32004. I've also got the Scale Aircraft Conversions SE5a (Late) white metal Landing Gear and Struts, Eduard PE Set along with the Encore version, and a Tom's Modelworks #501 British Guns Pe Set to add to the mix. The desk "floweth over"!
(the Encore Kit can still be completed as a "stock" Hisso machine, I'm thinking APF Rhys-David's on the day of the Voss Fight)





Quoted Text

Again, in keeping with the Contest Rules, a brief history...James McCudden was no ordinary Fighter Pilot; he had joined the flying service as an Air Mechanic and did much of his own aircraft maintenance including performance enhancing modifications. His first SE5a, 4853 was somewhat "souped up" however 4891 was the ultimate of his efforts. It was one of the rare airframes with narrow chord elevators, he fitted high compression pistons to the Hispano Suiza 8b powerplant, had a fully optimised bulged cockpit fairing for extreme high altitude work, the improved higher strength landing gear, shortened exhaust pipes to increase engine efficiency, and he fitted the spinner from an LVG he had downed which he claimed gave him an "extra 3 mph". His forte was high altitude interception, an art he perfected in shooting down 40 high altitude two seater Recce aircraft.
One of the few photos I could find of 4891 (some labeled as such were actually his earlier airframe, 4853)





Quoted Text

B4891 as marked prior to 29 Dec 1917 when 56 Sqn. changed aircraft letter identifiers to numbers, in this case "G" being changed to "6".






Quoted Text

...and 4891 as she was marked on 30 January 1918 in her final livery.





Quoted Text

That's the intro in all it's glory, now on to the fun part of bringing it all together in a hopefully succesful build. Given the wonderful kit from WNW, all the "bells and whistles" I've gathered up, and the motivation and encouragement provided by a Group Build I am really looking forward to getting at it!
I plan to start with the cockpit components and forward fuselage interior work including a full install of flight control cables and a scratch built instrument panel. The engine won't be getting much attention as I plan to build her "buttoned up". If I can come even close to Lance Kreig's techniques I'll be a very happy modeller indeed! Have to keep reminding myself, "build clean, build clean,.......slow down and build clean!"

Cheers (and more to follow soon)
Lance"

Holdfast
Staff MemberPresident
IPMS-UK KITMAKER BRANCH
#056
_VISITCOMMUNITY
England - South West, United Kingdom
Joined: September 30, 2002
KitMaker: 8,581 posts
AeroScale: 4,913 posts
Posted: Monday, December 23, 2013 - 08:33 PM UTC
Thanks for that Stephen, very informative but I am a little confused. The Encore kit doesn't show the raised cockpit faring fitted to B4891 and that part has a cut out for the headrest fairing. It is very difficult (for me) to tell from the photo if the aircraft has a raised fairing but it definitely doesn't have the headrest fairing. The painting on the front of the Osprey book from the build thread definitely shows the raised cockpit faring and no headrest fairing, which I guess is correct for the final incarnation of McCudden's S.E.5a?
I have saved the build blog to my favs so I will be referring to it during my build
lcarroll
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Alberta, Canada
Joined: July 26, 2010
KitMaker: 1,032 posts
AeroScale: 1,025 posts
Posted: Tuesday, December 24, 2013 - 07:02 AM UTC
Mal,
I suffered all the contradictory reference info when I did this Build originally, as you'll discern reading my Thread Stephen provided here.
There is no end of misinformation available concerning the "G" vs. "6" fuselage marking, the spinner, and, most significantly, the raised and enclosed cockpit fairing.
The format I used was the result of endless comparisons of photos and a lot of reading of the Refs I had available. In the end, as detailed in the Build Log, I needed bits from both the Kits and the conversion kit to do her up as she sits. The True Details resin cockpit combing was the final key as the Encore one didn't at all fit the WNW Kit.The Encore version is, IMHO, not correct for 4891 as she was flown by McCudden in Jan. 1918. Many of the answers to the questions of blue or white "Dumbells", 6's or G's, cockpit enclosures, etc were found in the naratives of the refs I listed from Osprey, Albatros, and the rest.
It was a very enjoyable project and took a bit of forethought and planning to complete. In the end it was my most satisfying Build to date, and I bought another WNW Kit to do up "standard" down the road. Good luck with your project, I'll be following with great interest. Should you "hit the wall" on any issues just get in touch and I'll see how good my memory is in providing the logic/references I used in the final format.
Cheers,
Lance
Holdfast
Staff MemberPresident
IPMS-UK KITMAKER BRANCH
#056
_VISITCOMMUNITY
England - South West, United Kingdom
Joined: September 30, 2002
KitMaker: 8,581 posts
AeroScale: 4,913 posts
Posted: Tuesday, December 24, 2013 - 07:45 PM UTC
Hi Lance,
Yes, I have been wondering if I have bitten off more than I can chew for my first WWI build! However I have yet to read everything in your blog but it is obvious, from what I have read, that you have done your research so I am taking your build as the one to follow

I test fitted the resin upper deck, with raised cockpit fairing, and it seams to fit pretty well on the Encore kit fuselage (for which I guess it was designed?) The main reason for building this kit is because it has the figure of McCudden included and I want to show that painted in greys to suggest a ghostly image in remembrance and, as he is associated more with the S.E.5, I figured that was the kit that I should build. I'm thinking that I might be better building the WNW Pup that I have as a first foray into WWI aircraft modelling,(I can find another figure for the effect) and I can build the S.E.5a at my leisure as I get my modelling mojo back.

I don't have any books on the S.E.5, in fact I only have 2 books on WWI subjects, both for the Albatross, so maybe I need to increase my WWI library and get into the WWI scene more?
JackFlash
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Colorado, United States
Joined: January 25, 2004
KitMaker: 11,669 posts
AeroScale: 11,011 posts
Posted: Wednesday, December 25, 2013 - 12:31 AM UTC
For anyone not familiar with it, the Encore kit plastic is the same as the Roden kit plastic.
Merlin
Staff MemberSenior Editor
AEROSCALE
#017
_VISITCOMMUNITY
United Kingdom
Joined: June 11, 2003
KitMaker: 17,582 posts
AeroScale: 12,795 posts
Posted: Wednesday, December 25, 2013 - 12:38 AM UTC
Hi there

What strikes me is just how inaccurate the profiles are. The spinners look nothing like the photos - and the real a/c seems to have clipped wing-tips and ailerons?...

All the best

Rowan
JackFlash
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Colorado, United States
Joined: January 25, 2004
KitMaker: 11,669 posts
AeroScale: 11,011 posts
Posted: Wednesday, December 25, 2013 - 04:32 AM UTC

Quoted Text

". . . and the real a/c seems to have clipped wing-tips and ailerons?. . ."



According to the Air Board description, that was the difference between the SE 5 & Se 5a. That is the four smaller area ailerons was specific to the SE 5a.
Merlin
Staff MemberSenior Editor
AEROSCALE
#017
_VISITCOMMUNITY
United Kingdom
Joined: June 11, 2003
KitMaker: 17,582 posts
AeroScale: 12,795 posts
Posted: Wednesday, December 25, 2013 - 05:55 AM UTC
Cheers Stephen

I'm glad my old Mk. I eyeballs weren't deceiving me. It shows how careful we have to be if going by artwork.

All the best

Rowan
lcarroll
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Alberta, Canada
Joined: July 26, 2010
KitMaker: 1,032 posts
AeroScale: 1,025 posts
Posted: Wednesday, December 25, 2013 - 07:37 AM UTC
Mal,
I just took a peek in the Encore Kit I still have; that's where I put all the leftovers and spares from my Build. I actually have two untouched figures; one that came with the Encore Kit and another with the conversion set.
Should you decide to rather do the Pup I'd be pleased to pass the two figures over to you in exchange for a "future pint" should I ever make it to Telford. I can get them in the post to you very quickly, if you'd like them just send me a mailing address.
I also found all my notes in the box; lots of references from the Osprey books and also the Albatros Publications SE5a Squadrons Book.
I had actually forgotten how confusing and contradictory some of the available info was. The notes also have a lot of info on the 56 Sqn fight with Voss; I want to do a standard SE5a in Rhys-Davids scheme for that historical battle and that's where the 2 or 4 bladed prop, blue or white Dumbell, and letters vs. numbers enter the fray as well! That's also where the SE5a Squadron Markings book from Albatros earns it's keep, what a great book!
Cheers,
Lance
JackFlash
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Colorado, United States
Joined: January 25, 2004
KitMaker: 11,669 posts
AeroScale: 11,011 posts
Posted: Wednesday, December 25, 2013 - 11:17 AM UTC
Here is the comparison between the two images. As I mentioned they were both most like likely from MS types. Though designed for two bladed props the 56 Sqn machine shop cold easily alter them. The proportions are almost identical.


JackFlash
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Colorado, United States
Joined: January 25, 2004
KitMaker: 11,669 posts
AeroScale: 11,011 posts
Posted: Wednesday, December 25, 2013 - 11:22 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Cheers Stephen

I'm glad my old Mk. I eyeballs weren't deceiving me. It shows how careful we have to be if going by artwork.

All the best

Rowan



Too often "artists go with "stock frame" drawings just to fill in a bit of colour.
Holdfast
Staff MemberPresident
IPMS-UK KITMAKER BRANCH
#056
_VISITCOMMUNITY
England - South West, United Kingdom
Joined: September 30, 2002
KitMaker: 8,581 posts
AeroScale: 4,913 posts
Posted: Wednesday, December 25, 2013 - 09:45 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Mal,
I just took a peek in the Encore Kit I still have; that's where I put all the leftovers and spares from my Build. I actually have two untouched figures; one that came with the Encore Kit and another with the conversion set.
Should you decide to rather do the Pup I'd be pleased to pass the two figures over to you in exchange for a "future pint" should I ever make it to Telford. I can get them in the post to you very quickly, if you'd like them just send me a mailing address.



Thanks you Lance, a very generous offer, but I think that I will go with the Pup for this remembrance project as I am much more likely to get the Pup finished; so I will find a figure to suit. I'll still buy you a pint if you make it to Telford and, because you offered, I'll do you a set of masks (if you want to try them) for you next project (or any other one) for just the postage

Another question:
Q. What are your thoughts on the pennant shown in on of those profiles?

lcarroll
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Alberta, Canada
Joined: July 26, 2010
KitMaker: 1,032 posts
AeroScale: 1,025 posts
Posted: Thursday, December 26, 2013 - 05:32 AM UTC
Mal,
The only place I recall seeing a pennant on the aircraft is on the cover painting of the 56 Sqn. Book by Mark Postlethwaite. It also appears on the Profile by Harry Dempsey on Pg.70. I don't recall it in any of the photos however it would make sense that McCudden flew with a pennant as was common for Flight Leads.
I'd say a pennant would not be out of place on his aircraft.
As for the pint, and the mask offer, Keep those thoughts, and Thanks!
Cheers,
Lance
Cheers,
Littorio
_VISITCOMMUNITY
England - South East, United Kingdom
Joined: September 15, 2004
KitMaker: 4,728 posts
AeroScale: 1,351 posts
Posted: Thursday, December 26, 2013 - 06:41 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Thanks you Lance, a very generous offer, but I think that I will go with the Pup for this remembrance project as I am much more likely to get the Pup finished; so I will find a figure to suit. I'll still buy you a pint if you make it to Telford and, because you offered, I'll do you a set of masks (if you want to try them) for you next project (or any other one) for just the postage

Another question:
Q. What are your thoughts on the pennant shown in on of those profiles?




Mal I've been following along on this and which ever you decide should be a good build to watch, as for figures if 1/32 you have quite a few to choose from MDC, Ultracast do figures to name a couple and Tommy's war do this figure based on Pilot Sergeant Edward Street 4 Sqd RFC in 1915. I don't have the info on Edward Street to hand and google turns up zip but lets just say he needs some recognition. I'm sure Stephen or Lance could fill in the blanks.
Holdfast
Staff MemberPresident
IPMS-UK KITMAKER BRANCH
#056
_VISITCOMMUNITY
England - South West, United Kingdom
Joined: September 30, 2002
KitMaker: 8,581 posts
AeroScale: 4,913 posts
Posted: Thursday, December 26, 2013 - 06:39 PM UTC
Thanks Lucky, I do like that Sergeant pilot from Tommy's war
I'll be digging out the Pup later today to see if It is as "easy" to build as I imagine and, hopefully, there won't be any questions that I need to ask
Littorio
_VISITCOMMUNITY
England - South East, United Kingdom
Joined: September 15, 2004
KitMaker: 4,728 posts
AeroScale: 1,351 posts
Posted: Thursday, December 26, 2013 - 07:35 PM UTC
Mal, a bit of info on Sergeant Edward Street, originally from Somerset he joined the Coldstream Guards aged 13 before joining the RFC and passing his exam in March 1913. Posted to France August 1914 he was amongst the original RFC pilots on the Western Front. Sergeant Street was known as a crack shot and is credited with forcing down a German Taube in 1914 by pistol, an episode which earned him the French Legion of Honour. this being the first airman to bring down a German. Edward Street was later promoted to Lieutenant in 1916 and survived the war.
 _GOTOTOP