I'm looking for some pictures or diagrams showing the type of mounting used to fit a Lewis gun to the top wing of a Sopwith Pup. I've got some profiles showing it, but being in plan view the dihedral of the wing blocks most of the gun.
I ask as I'm planning on building the Airfix kit of the Pup flown by James McCudden, whilst serving as an instructor in 1917, in several attempts to intercept Gotha bombers. The little biography in the kit describing one combat, states that McCudden 'fired a whole drum of ammunition from his Lewis gun at the rearmost bomber without effect'. Problem is, the kit only comes with the normal fuselage mounted Vickers.

Any help will be appreciated.

Are you talking about the Tripod or the swing arm version? I have done both. Tripod on the Naval Pup and the swing arm on the 2F.1 Camel. Since McCudden was RFC it could be either version.

Here is the Profipack #8058 build with the 8059 decals. Done as N6602 modified with resin motor representing a Bentley BR.1 150hp. The other is the Blue Max 2.F1 with an Eduard Clerget. These have the swing arm











The Tripod version was typical for the Pup.

I'm not exactly sure on the type of mounting that was used, but I have seen both of those in some photo's. I do have one of the swing mounts in a Roden Camel that I could copy from and a tripod mount from a Strutter that I could adapt if needs be.
The add to the confusion I carried on searching last night after posting my original question and found this article on the aircraft on the aircraft:
http://www.crossandcockade.com/Uploads/McC%20Pup(1).pdf
It seems to suggest that the Lewis mounting might have been a non standard fitting. It also only says that the gun was 'carried on the upper centre-section'. Very helpful. I assume this must be on the wing as I read recently that a Lewis could not be synched with interrupter gear. It has a great photo, but only in its unarmed guise!

Great models by the way, I like that rocket armed Camel!

". . .As a training machine, the Pup had been un-armed but McCudden had it fitted with a Lewis gun, carried on the upper centre-section. A ‘new’ photograph reveals that it was fitted with the later style of Standard engine cowling, that with a small frontal radius and that a small spinner was attached to the propeller boss. . ." Without a cut out in the upper wing it had to be a stationary / fixed mount.

In the pofile 8 and 9 isn't that the pup ? Flashback never did a camel ...




Terri

I just had a check of the kits cowling and it does seem to match that in the photo, so no problems there. Also pretty sure the Roden Camel has a spinner or two.
I'm wondering if it might have been a similar type of fixed mount as was used on the Nieuport 17's? Or maybe even something that was lashed together by the squadron mechanics and totally unique? If only we could find a picture!
The mention of the Pup having light blue undersides is also interesting. It will certainly be a good looking little model once the gun is sorted out.

That's right.

I have been digging into my books. In Flying Machines Press "Victoria Cross" By Alex Revell, the section on McCudden describes his adventures in A.7311 fitted to fire over the top of the wing. It also mentions on his first attack June 13, he fired a whole drum into the bottom of the Gotha with no affect. This indicates he had a flexible mount capable of firing upward.
The next July 7 attack saw him dive on the Gotha target and fire continuously to 50 yards. he then reloaded and tried again twice more and unsuccessful each time.
These actions indicate to me two observations. 1. The mount was high enough to clear the prop which means it had to be about a foot ,at least, above the center section to provide any forward firing; the mount was not steady or a marksman like McCudden would have gotten some telling hits. This may mean there was no muzzle clamp.
The Mount has to be very high over the low center section to fire forward, like the Foster mount just coming on line with the SE-5, but raise at least a foot above the wing (which would put the muzzle about 18 inches above the wing. These figures are "WAGs" by the way, but you should understand.

2. If the mechanics were like te ones I worked with they probably put together something that looked like a Nieuport mount.

We won't know exactly until a pup photo with a top wing mount shows up that meets the above criteria.

Captn Tommy

Thanks Tommy, that little bit of info is a big help. The account of two different attacks from different angles does seem to suggest a flexible mounting for the gun.
I do have in the stash an Eduard Dual-combo Nieuport 17 which has very nice plastic and etched Lewis mounts. From what I can remember most of the marking options in the kit don't need it. So I think I will use that. Unless a photograph does come to light, guess work and some improvisation is called for.
Got a few kits to finish off and then this one will be on the workbench and I'll upload pics as I go.

Thanks to everyone who helped.
Stephen

Very interesting photo is on Jamo_kiwi photobucket site. Wing mounted Lewis on a Vintage Aviator Sopwith Pup! Though with a rig like this McCudden would have probably done more damage. The muzzle is secured.
Enjoy
Captn Tommy

And thanks to Jamo_kiwi.

Thanks Tom, that's given me a good idea of the height above the wing I would have to make the mount.
Stephen

Some more digging around on the interweb tonight has resulted in this review of a sheet for the WW 1/32 Pup. It features the very one I'd like to build:
http://scaleplasticandrail.com/kaboom/index.php/all-things-aviation/everything-else/aftermarket-decals/1924-1-32-sopwith-pup-trainers-and-pets-of-the-rfc-from-pheon-decals

Along with notes on the gun mounting and windscreen (which pretty much backs up what Tom said earlier), it also shows the model finished in the pale blue fuselage mentioned in the article I posted a while ago.
What are peoples thoughts on this? Is this likely to be correct? It's an interesting scheme and will certainly set it apart from the usual dull RFC/RNAS colour scheme, so I'd like to run with it if it's plausible.

The Tripod version was typical for the "Pup".





The editor added Camel instead of Pup.