Jerry
Hosted by Jim Starkweather
acrylic paint
zoomie50
Joined: March 20, 2005
KitMaker: 358 posts
AeroScale: 43 posts
Posted: Thursday, November 06, 2014 - 02:45 PM UTC
Hello all. This is the first time I have used acrylic paints to paint a whole plane. I am painting Trumpeters 1/32 F4F-3 early. I painted the wings using model master chrome yellow. And the fuselage silver. While pulling off the masking tape the silver pealed up. As has the yellow. And I mean in sheets. Would appreciate any help and info on what I could be doing wrong. Thanks
Jerry
Jerry
Joel_W
Associate EditorJoined: December 04, 2010
KitMaker: 11,666 posts
AeroScale: 7,410 posts
Posted: Saturday, November 08, 2014 - 07:33 PM UTC
Jerry,
From my personal experiences with Model Masters Acrylic paints' I had that same issue of the paint being pulled off using Tamiya tape that was detacked. What I found that helps is to 1st prime with either Tamiya Gray Surface Primer, or Mr. Surfacer Primer. Model Master Acrylic primer is next to useless in that it also doesn't stick to the plastic very well, and that the acrylics don't stick to it much better then they do to raw plastic. I seal each airbrushed color with a coat of Testors Dullcoat, then mask and repeat as necessary.
Honestly, for the extra effort and time needed, I much prefer to use Model Master enamels, which I have no issues with, but you still need to prime 1st as enamels really don't stick well to raw plastic.
If you want to use only Acrylics, my go to is Tamiya.
Joel
From my personal experiences with Model Masters Acrylic paints' I had that same issue of the paint being pulled off using Tamiya tape that was detacked. What I found that helps is to 1st prime with either Tamiya Gray Surface Primer, or Mr. Surfacer Primer. Model Master Acrylic primer is next to useless in that it also doesn't stick to the plastic very well, and that the acrylics don't stick to it much better then they do to raw plastic. I seal each airbrushed color with a coat of Testors Dullcoat, then mask and repeat as necessary.
Honestly, for the extra effort and time needed, I much prefer to use Model Master enamels, which I have no issues with, but you still need to prime 1st as enamels really don't stick well to raw plastic.
If you want to use only Acrylics, my go to is Tamiya.
Joel
zoomie50
Joined: March 20, 2005
KitMaker: 358 posts
AeroScale: 43 posts
Posted: Tuesday, November 11, 2014 - 08:07 AM UTC
Joel
Thank you sir for the input. I have always used enamels but a friend of mine is using acrylics. I passed on your help and he asked me to send you a big ole Texas thank you. He is just now starting to put on decals. When he is finished will send you some pics. Hi name is Glen and he is ex Navy. Just getting back into building. Keep telling him to get on here and talk to all of you. I have learned a lot from this site.
Thanks again
Jerry
Thank you sir for the input. I have always used enamels but a friend of mine is using acrylics. I passed on your help and he asked me to send you a big ole Texas thank you. He is just now starting to put on decals. When he is finished will send you some pics. Hi name is Glen and he is ex Navy. Just getting back into building. Keep telling him to get on here and talk to all of you. I have learned a lot from this site.
Thanks again
Jerry
Namabiiru
Associate Editor
#399
Joined: March 05, 2014
KitMaker: 2,888 posts
AeroScale: 307 posts
Posted: Tuesday, November 11, 2014 - 08:54 AM UTC
Primer is a must when spraying acrylics--no way around that. For masking, I like to stick the tape to my T-shirt or jeans once before laying it on the model. That de-tacks it enough that it doesn't pull up properly primed paint. Just have to make sure there are no loose threads or lint sticking out to get in the way of the surface I'm painting. Also want to make sure you spray only light coats and shoot as close to perpendicular to the surface as possible so the paint doesn't run under the tape (but yoou probably already know that part if you've been using enamels previously.
chrism
Joined: January 05, 2012
KitMaker: 160 posts
AeroScale: 156 posts
Posted: Tuesday, November 11, 2014 - 10:32 AM UTC
I too have peeling problems with Model Master acrylic paint, in fact Finescale Modeler had done tests with various acrylic paints and Model Master lifted off in the tape test. I never had a probelm with Tamiya and Vallejo acrylics. I tend to use these three brands as they are available at the LHS.
JClapp
#259
Joined: October 23, 2011
KitMaker: 2,265 posts
AeroScale: 1,715 posts
Posted: Tuesday, November 11, 2014 - 10:54 AM UTC
I was very disappointed with Testors when they shut down PollyScale. That was a damn good product I have used for years with nothing but good results.
I dont use Model master acrylics at all.
I dont use Model master acrylics at all.
Joel_W
Associate EditorJoined: December 04, 2010
KitMaker: 11,666 posts
AeroScale: 7,410 posts
Posted: Tuesday, November 11, 2014 - 07:54 PM UTC
Quoted Text
I too have peeling problems with Model Master acrylic paint, in fact Finescale Modeler had done tests with various acrylic paints and Model Master lifted off in the tape test. I never had a probelm with Tamiya and Vallejo acrylics. I tend to use these three brands as they are available at the LHS.
For what it's worth. It's a fairly common problem with Model Master Acrylics as you see this complaint on a lot of modeling sites. For Acrylics still with Vallejo or Tamiya. I just find it easier to work with Tamiya acrylics as they're available locally, and being Alcohol based, they just seem to stick to plastic and primer much better.
Hand painting is another whole issue. Tamiya acrylics are horrible for hand painting, so I use Model Master enamels.
Joel
Joel_W
Associate EditorJoined: December 04, 2010
KitMaker: 11,666 posts
AeroScale: 7,410 posts
Posted: Tuesday, November 11, 2014 - 07:56 PM UTC
Quoted Text
I was very disappointed with Testors when they shut down PollyScale. That was a damn good product I have used for years with nothing but good results.
I dont use Model master acrylics at all.
Jonathan,
I also loved PolyScale. Not a single issue that I could remember. They just couldn't leave well enough alone.
Joel
drabslab
Joined: September 28, 2004
KitMaker: 2,186 posts
AeroScale: 1,587 posts
Posted: Wednesday, November 12, 2014 - 02:51 AM UTC
I am raised with Humbrol enamel and still addicted to it; After that came Modelmaster enamel, in my view superior to the humbrol range.
Influenced by reports relaetd to health issues with enamel and the promotion for acryl claiming that becqause it is water based, it is a lot safer, I have started using mainly Tamiya acryl for airbrushing and painting details.
I am not wildly enthousiastic about it; Enamel seems a lot better to me, it adheres better to the plastic, is more scracth resistant ...
If only I could get a decent answer on the health issue somewhere ...
Influenced by reports relaetd to health issues with enamel and the promotion for acryl claiming that becqause it is water based, it is a lot safer, I have started using mainly Tamiya acryl for airbrushing and painting details.
I am not wildly enthousiastic about it; Enamel seems a lot better to me, it adheres better to the plastic, is more scracth resistant ...
If only I could get a decent answer on the health issue somewhere ...
Joel_W
Associate EditorJoined: December 04, 2010
KitMaker: 11,666 posts
AeroScale: 7,410 posts
Posted: Wednesday, November 12, 2014 - 04:18 AM UTC
Quoted Text
I am raised with Humbrol enamel and still addicted to it; After that came Modelmaster enamel, in my view superior to the humbrol range.
Influenced by reports relaetd to health issues with enamel and the promotion for acryl claiming that becqause it is water based, it is a lot safer, I have started using mainly Tamiya acryl for airbrushing and painting details.
I am not wildly enthousiastic about it; Enamel seems a lot better to me, it adheres better to the plastic, is more scracth resistant ...
If only I could get a decent answer on the health issue somewhere ...
Drabslab,
I also learned my modeling back in the 70's enamels. While the Tamiya acrylics yield a excellent finish, they're not in the same league with model enamels.
I switched to acrylics this time around because of the order of the enamels. I do have a home built spray booth that works great, so it's not a major issue for me these days. I'm slowly switching back to Model Master enamels, but have dozens of bottles of Tamiya Acrylics to go through 1st.
Buy a good respirator, not a 1st aid germ mask. Like I said, I made my own spray booth that goes in a window for less then $30 several years ago.
Joel
zoomie50
Joined: March 20, 2005
KitMaker: 358 posts
AeroScale: 43 posts
Posted: Wednesday, November 12, 2014 - 11:12 AM UTC
Thanks again all of you. I don't use acrylics except on figures. Have learned a lot reading what you all have to say about them.
I use a paint booth also. Sort of got attached to my lungs years and years and years ago. Turned 60 in October. As my oldest daughter tells me, I am officially a crusty old goat now, lol.
Jerry
I use a paint booth also. Sort of got attached to my lungs years and years and years ago. Turned 60 in October. As my oldest daughter tells me, I am officially a crusty old goat now, lol.
Jerry
drabslab
Joined: September 28, 2004
KitMaker: 2,186 posts
AeroScale: 1,587 posts
Posted: Wednesday, November 12, 2014 - 02:57 PM UTC
[quote Like I said, I made my own spray booth that goes in a window for less then $30 several years ago.
Joel
[/quote]
That is very good advice and X-mas is cming up.
I feel a devious plan taking shape
gnigni
Joel
[/quote]
That is very good advice and X-mas is cming up.
I feel a devious plan taking shape
gnigni
Joel_W
Associate EditorJoined: December 04, 2010
KitMaker: 11,666 posts
AeroScale: 7,410 posts
Posted: Wednesday, November 12, 2014 - 10:17 PM UTC
Jerry,
You're not even an official senior yet. Heck, I'm 67 this Friday. On Medicare, and of course finally started to collect Social Security. I still work 4 days 32 hrs so I have health insurance for my wife as she's just a baby at 63.
Given a choice, I rather be a youngster again. Being old isn't what it's cracked up to be.
Joel
You're not even an official senior yet. Heck, I'm 67 this Friday. On Medicare, and of course finally started to collect Social Security. I still work 4 days 32 hrs so I have health insurance for my wife as she's just a baby at 63.
Given a choice, I rather be a youngster again. Being old isn't what it's cracked up to be.
Joel
flypaper
Joined: May 21, 2007
KitMaker: 51 posts
AeroScale: 49 posts
KitMaker: 51 posts
AeroScale: 49 posts
Posted: Monday, December 14, 2015 - 07:08 AM UTC
I have read somewhere that a splash of lacquer thinner in your acrylic paint will help it adhere better to plastic. The reason being the lacquer makes the paint a bit "hotter" and gives it some bite on the plastic. I cant say one way or another since I am a Floquil man myself.
Flypaper
Flypaper
magnusf
Joined: May 02, 2006
KitMaker: 1,953 posts
AeroScale: 1,902 posts
Posted: Monday, December 14, 2015 - 04:14 PM UTC
"Acrylics" are a huge family of paints with different chemical properties.
Speaking for my favourites Gunze and Tamiya, both of them can be thinned using either water (not very good but it works sort of, especially for Gunze), different kinds of alcohols and classic "laquer thinner" (cellulose based).
A good compromise for Gunze and Tamiya is to use Tamiya X-20 thinner, which I think based on smell consists of mostly alcohol. I also have tried Gunze's "levelling thinner" that contains more of hotter and smellier ingredients (it has a distinctive laquer smell), to start with I was very happy with it but I am not too sure how much of an improvement it really is compared to using Tamiya X-20, especially when considering the smell...
Enamels and dangers of them:
1) Acrylics aren't healthy either, to start with one shall always avoid breathing the paint particles no matter what paint one uses.
2) The amount of solvent used is really tiny. Some painters (the ones that paint your house) got really ill from solvents (memory loss among other stuff) but there is a huge difference between opening a Humbrol tin a few times per week compared to spending a full day in a room where you have painted a few litres/gallons of solvent based paint on the walls. And then doing this every workday for twenty years or so!
All chemicals shall be treated with respect and as potentially dangerous but in the amounts we modellers use them in general and handled with reasonable care I am almost sure that they don't represent any great health risk.
I don't use enamels but that's just for two reasons that aren't really health related:
1) I don't like cleaning the airbrush with white spirit or thinner, I find it a lot easier using alcohol and water.
2) I don't like the petrol smell of the white spirit that I never seemed to get rid of from my hobby corner.
Paint adherence: use primer! Tamiya Fine White is my favourite, straight from the can!
Magnus
Speaking for my favourites Gunze and Tamiya, both of them can be thinned using either water (not very good but it works sort of, especially for Gunze), different kinds of alcohols and classic "laquer thinner" (cellulose based).
A good compromise for Gunze and Tamiya is to use Tamiya X-20 thinner, which I think based on smell consists of mostly alcohol. I also have tried Gunze's "levelling thinner" that contains more of hotter and smellier ingredients (it has a distinctive laquer smell), to start with I was very happy with it but I am not too sure how much of an improvement it really is compared to using Tamiya X-20, especially when considering the smell...
Enamels and dangers of them:
1) Acrylics aren't healthy either, to start with one shall always avoid breathing the paint particles no matter what paint one uses.
2) The amount of solvent used is really tiny. Some painters (the ones that paint your house) got really ill from solvents (memory loss among other stuff) but there is a huge difference between opening a Humbrol tin a few times per week compared to spending a full day in a room where you have painted a few litres/gallons of solvent based paint on the walls. And then doing this every workday for twenty years or so!
All chemicals shall be treated with respect and as potentially dangerous but in the amounts we modellers use them in general and handled with reasonable care I am almost sure that they don't represent any great health risk.
I don't use enamels but that's just for two reasons that aren't really health related:
1) I don't like cleaning the airbrush with white spirit or thinner, I find it a lot easier using alcohol and water.
2) I don't like the petrol smell of the white spirit that I never seemed to get rid of from my hobby corner.
Paint adherence: use primer! Tamiya Fine White is my favourite, straight from the can!
Magnus
Scrodes
Joined: July 22, 2012
KitMaker: 771 posts
AeroScale: 763 posts
Posted: Monday, December 14, 2015 - 04:46 PM UTC
Even when I use Acrylics (Tamiya) I use (their own) lacquer thinner.
Honestly, I have never liked the Model Master Acrylic line. Most hobby shops here don't even carry them anymore.
I would either go enamel or switch to Tamiya/Vallejo
Honestly, I have never liked the Model Master Acrylic line. Most hobby shops here don't even carry them anymore.
I would either go enamel or switch to Tamiya/Vallejo
Joel_W
Associate EditorJoined: December 04, 2010
KitMaker: 11,666 posts
AeroScale: 7,410 posts
Posted: Monday, December 14, 2015 - 08:25 PM UTC
As others have alluded to, there is a very wide range of what constitutes acrylic paints. There are true water based paints like Lifecolor (my new go to paint), Vallejo, Model Aire, and the list goes on. Tamiya and Gunze aren't true Acrylics, they're lacquer based acrylics. Hence, every bottle has a "Flammable" icon warning, while water based acrylics don't.
Tamiya recommends either their X-20A which is basically Iso Alcohol cut with distilled water, a retarder, and a flow enhancer. There are more then enough home made mixtures online if you want to go that route. Bobby Waldron has an excellent one. but it costs so little in the large bottle, it's just not worth my time nor effort. For the last few years I've switched to their Yellow Cap which is a lacquer base thinner that won't attack raw plastic. It does a much better job of breaking down the paint pigment then X-20A does. Not sure if it helps the paint bite into the plastic or not as I would think that's a property of the paint, not the thinning agent.
Joel
Tamiya recommends either their X-20A which is basically Iso Alcohol cut with distilled water, a retarder, and a flow enhancer. There are more then enough home made mixtures online if you want to go that route. Bobby Waldron has an excellent one. but it costs so little in the large bottle, it's just not worth my time nor effort. For the last few years I've switched to their Yellow Cap which is a lacquer base thinner that won't attack raw plastic. It does a much better job of breaking down the paint pigment then X-20A does. Not sure if it helps the paint bite into the plastic or not as I would think that's a property of the paint, not the thinning agent.
Joel
JPTRR
Managing Editor
#051
Joined: December 21, 2002
KitMaker: 7,772 posts
AeroScale: 3,175 posts
Posted: Monday, December 14, 2015 - 08:53 PM UTC
Quoted Text
I was very disappointed with Testors when they shut down PollyScale. That was a damn good product I have used for years with nothing but good results.
I dont use Model master acrylics at all.
110% concur! I wrote Testors several times practically begging them not to cancel P.S. - the best acrylics I have ever used! About 10 years ago I put a demo post somewhere here at KitMaker demonstrating Polly Scale and Tamiya and M.M. enamel, showing adhesion under tape, as well as scratched by fingernails and a screwdriver. Polly Scale (and Floquil) was superior to both. With my technique of painting, M.M. (acrylic and enamel) is inferior.
I will not buy Model Master anymore - period. They lost my business.
JPTRR
Managing Editor#051
Joined: December 21, 2002
KitMaker: 7,772 posts
AeroScale: 3,175 posts
Posted: Monday, December 14, 2015 - 08:53 PM UTC
Jerry,
I forgot to say that priming is essential.
I forgot to say that priming is essential.
drabslab
Joined: September 28, 2004
KitMaker: 2,186 posts
AeroScale: 1,587 posts
Posted: Monday, December 14, 2015 - 11:33 PM UTC
One year after my first reaction to this post.
In an attempt to be modern, environment friendly, health conscious ... I tried a few things to turn to acryl only and remove those unhealthy enamels from my modelling habits
I tried Vallejo surface acrylic polyurethane primer. Impressive title isn't it. The performance is a lot less impressive
Doesn't stick. I could simply peel it of, no tools needed.
Now I am back to enamels and good old Humbrol (although I hate those damn jars
)
In an attempt to be modern, environment friendly, health conscious ... I tried a few things to turn to acryl only and remove those unhealthy enamels from my modelling habits
I tried Vallejo surface acrylic polyurethane primer. Impressive title isn't it. The performance is a lot less impressive
Doesn't stick. I could simply peel it of, no tools needed.
Now I am back to enamels and good old Humbrol (although I hate those damn jars
)JPTRR
Managing Editor#051
Joined: December 21, 2002
KitMaker: 7,772 posts
AeroScale: 3,175 posts
Posted: Monday, December 14, 2015 - 11:45 PM UTC
Quoted Text
...good old Humbrol (although I hate those damn jars
Joel_W
Associate EditorJoined: December 04, 2010
KitMaker: 11,666 posts
AeroScale: 7,410 posts
Posted: Tuesday, December 15, 2015 - 01:39 AM UTC
About the best acrylic primer I've found is the Mig Ammo primers. It sticks very well to raw plastic, but needs to cure a full day. Paint also adheres to without any issues. I now use it with Lifecolor and Tamiya paints, and Tamiya primers under everything else including Zero paints which are real automotive lacquers.
Joel
Joel
AussieReg
Associate Editor#007
Joined: June 09, 2009
KitMaker: 8,156 posts
AeroScale: 3,756 posts
Posted: Tuesday, December 15, 2015 - 03:51 AM UTC
Hi all.
I am going to buck the trend here. I never use enamels, and I have never used primer. I have never had paint peel off with masking, and I have used generic painters low-tack tape as well as Tamiya tape.
I always give the sprues a good wash in warm water with mild detergent and then a good rinse, and during the assembly process I give all surfaces a light sand with fine paper to give the paint something to key into.
I use Tamiya and Gunze acrylics with their respective solvents, I only use Lacquer Thinner when I want to give my trusty old Paasche-H a thorough clean.
Then again, maybe I'm just lucky. Now that I've said all of this my next build will probably be a disaster!
Best wishes to all for the season from Down Under!
Cheers, D
I am going to buck the trend here. I never use enamels, and I have never used primer. I have never had paint peel off with masking, and I have used generic painters low-tack tape as well as Tamiya tape.
I always give the sprues a good wash in warm water with mild detergent and then a good rinse, and during the assembly process I give all surfaces a light sand with fine paper to give the paint something to key into.
I use Tamiya and Gunze acrylics with their respective solvents, I only use Lacquer Thinner when I want to give my trusty old Paasche-H a thorough clean.
Then again, maybe I'm just lucky. Now that I've said all of this my next build will probably be a disaster!
Best wishes to all for the season from Down Under!
Cheers, D
thegirl
Joined: January 19, 2008
KitMaker: 6,743 posts
AeroScale: 6,151 posts
Posted: Tuesday, December 15, 2015 - 06:13 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Hi all.
I am going to buck the trend here. I never use enamels, and I have never used primer. I have never had paint peel off with masking, and I have used generic painters low-tack tape as well as Tamiya tape.
I always give the sprues a good wash in warm water with mild detergent and then a good rinse, and during the assembly process I give all surfaces a light sand with fine paper to give the paint something to key into.
I use Tamiya and Gunze acrylics with their respective solvents, I only use Lacquer Thinner when I want to give my trusty old Paasche-H a thorough clean.
Then again, maybe I'm just lucky. Now that I've said all of this my next build will probably be a disaster!
Best wishes to all for the season from Down Under!
Cheers, D
I'm the same , don't prime at all . I do if I used squadron green putty . Been using Tamiya paints for years now and never had any trouble with the paint lifting . They are easly scratched though .
I have used Model Master Acrylic's and tossed what I had left in the trash . Nothing but problems with it . I do miss the Pollyscale , best stuff around , shame on Testors ...
Terri
drabslab
Joined: September 28, 2004
KitMaker: 2,186 posts
AeroScale: 1,587 posts
Posted: Thursday, December 17, 2015 - 03:55 PM UTC
[quote
I have used Model Master Acrylic's and tossed what I had left in the trash .
Terri[/quote]
I have the same nasty feeling about Vallejo.
I have used Model Master Acrylic's and tossed what I had left in the trash .
Terri[/quote]
I have the same nasty feeling about Vallejo.
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