I just noticed in the upper banner of ads a new line of paints for military modeling: True Color. Now I'm not questioning how good the paints are, nor the completeness/accuracy of their colors. What I'm questioning is do we really need another line of model paints?
The paint business must be a bottomless pit as it seems that every year we get 1-3 new lines of paint all claiming to be the best of the best. Most are Acrylics, and now Lacquer based paints are making a strong comeback. Do we really need all these various paint lines?
I buy most of my modeling supplies from Sprue Brothers and ScaleHobbyist.com, and they each carry a min of a dozen lines of paint, yet most of the these newer companies have a few at best resources in the USA from places with less then stellar quick turn around service.
My honest question is do we really need anymore model paint lines, as most vendors can't or won't carry additional lines that will never sell well enough to justify carrying them.
My answer is we're already way past that line.
Joel
General Aircraft
This forum is for general aircraft modelling discussions.
This forum is for general aircraft modelling discussions.
Hosted by Jim Starkweather
Another New Paint Line
Joel_W
Associate Editor
Joined: December 04, 2010
KitMaker: 11,666 posts
AeroScale: 7,410 posts
Posted: Sunday, November 26, 2017 - 12:25 AM UTC
rdt1953
Joined: February 06, 2015
KitMaker: 1,098 posts
AeroScale: 900 posts
Posted: Sunday, November 26, 2017 - 12:34 AM UTC
Joel - I couldn't agree with you more - I thought exactly the same when I saw the ad myself . Rather than re-invent the wheel I wish U.S. retailers would again offer Gunze -Sangyo acrylics - far and away my favorite above all the others.
Richard
Richard
Joel_W
Associate EditorJoined: December 04, 2010
KitMaker: 11,666 posts
AeroScale: 7,410 posts
Posted: Sunday, November 26, 2017 - 02:21 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Joel - I couldn't agree with you more - I thought exactly the same when I saw the ad myself . Rather than re-invent the wheel I wish U.S. retailers would again offer Gunze -Sangyo acrylics - far and away my favorite above all the others.
Richard
Richard,
I'm right there with you buddy. Plus most of the large retailers start to either condense or drop lines, and the manufactures themselves start to become leery of adding more colors to an existing line.
Joel
drabslab
Joined: September 28, 2004
KitMaker: 2,186 posts
AeroScale: 1,587 posts
Posted: Sunday, November 26, 2017 - 02:27 AM UTC
This is not about what we need, it is about what someone thinks will generate an income. I started 40 or something like that years ago with Humbrol and am stilt using it.
Yes, i do expect that most of these new brands are the same paint with different labels but i hope some brave modeller will test and compare them all and write a comprehensive review
Yes, i do expect that most of these new brands are the same paint with different labels but i hope some brave modeller will test and compare them all and write a comprehensive review
chrism
Joined: January 05, 2012
KitMaker: 160 posts
AeroScale: 156 posts
Posted: Sunday, November 26, 2017 - 02:36 AM UTC
I say the more the merrier! Two companies that had almost every color used in and on aircraft were JPS and Aeromaster (whose paints were supplied by Floquil/Polly Scale)are now defunct. I applaud Hataka, Vallejo, AK, Tru Color and Mission Models for bringing more paint to the hobby! Now how about that WWII French interior midnight blue?
Joel_W
Associate EditorJoined: December 04, 2010
KitMaker: 11,666 posts
AeroScale: 7,410 posts
Posted: Sunday, November 26, 2017 - 02:48 AM UTC
Quoted Text
I say the more the merrier! Two companies that had almost every color used in and on aircraft were JPS and Aeromaster (whose paints were supplied by Floquil/Polly Scale)are now defunct. I applaud Hataka, Vallejo, AK, Tru Color and Mission Models for bringing more paint to the hobby! Now how about that WWII French interior midnight blue?
You're missing one major point, and that's most online retailers won't carry any more lines of paint. finding a reliable resource for all these new paints is a tough act, and if they drop the line for poor sales, or those paint companies cease production, you're worse off then before their arrival.
As DrabSlab said, it's basically all about the money. So while you love a million and one choices, the retailers don't, and finding resources becomes a major deal. Hakata paints have a few resources, and Akan has exactly one: them out of NJ.
With out naming the company I was using for MRP paints, it quickly got to the point of having to order more paint then I needed or wanted because they were always out of stocks, and he needed a min order which took time to accumulate. Eventually I just went back to my old paint lines.
Paint shouldn't be a modeling resource that we should have to worry about nor plan ahead like AM PE and Resin can be at times, especially in 1/32 scale.
Joel
drabslab
Joined: September 28, 2004
KitMaker: 2,186 posts
AeroScale: 1,587 posts
Posted: Sunday, November 26, 2017 - 03:09 PM UTC
Having many brands of paint available isn't the same as an obligaiton to use them all.
A lot depends on our own discipline (I know :-) ) to stick to one or two brands that provide a large range and is available where we live.
off topic:
ALthough the last point may be less important as local hobby shops are disapearing anyway in favour of the internet shops, something I used to hate but am getting more and more in favour of lately.
To give you one recent experience with a Local Hobby shop: I recently visited a large one, just on the border between Belgium and France. Yep, they carry a huge range and yes they have a lot of the new goodies. However, its also just on "the language border" and you need to be flemish Belgian to understand what that means.
In short, 5 staff members in the shop only speaking french and not interested at all to listen to someone speaking dutch (me with other words) and that less than 2km away from an area where everybody speaks dutch.
If I have to speak a foreign language to buy my modelling stuff then I can as well buy it on the internet which saves me a 40km drive as well.
Back to paint:
I guess that there are in reality only a few producers, and a few types. One indication of what could be the same is the bottle. I guess that the "automated bottle filling line" only works with one type of bottle so the same bottle is maybe also the same producer.
This doesn't mean that the colors are all the same as this depends on which pigments are used.
Again, we need to test, but only if we are not satisfied with our current paint. I, for the moment, stick to Humbrol enamel after some experiments with other stuff despite this paint being available in the worst containers imaginable.
;-)
A lot depends on our own discipline (I know :-) ) to stick to one or two brands that provide a large range and is available where we live.
off topic:
ALthough the last point may be less important as local hobby shops are disapearing anyway in favour of the internet shops, something I used to hate but am getting more and more in favour of lately.
To give you one recent experience with a Local Hobby shop: I recently visited a large one, just on the border between Belgium and France. Yep, they carry a huge range and yes they have a lot of the new goodies. However, its also just on "the language border" and you need to be flemish Belgian to understand what that means.
In short, 5 staff members in the shop only speaking french and not interested at all to listen to someone speaking dutch (me with other words) and that less than 2km away from an area where everybody speaks dutch.
If I have to speak a foreign language to buy my modelling stuff then I can as well buy it on the internet which saves me a 40km drive as well.
Back to paint:
I guess that there are in reality only a few producers, and a few types. One indication of what could be the same is the bottle. I guess that the "automated bottle filling line" only works with one type of bottle so the same bottle is maybe also the same producer.
This doesn't mean that the colors are all the same as this depends on which pigments are used.
Again, we need to test, but only if we are not satisfied with our current paint. I, for the moment, stick to Humbrol enamel after some experiments with other stuff despite this paint being available in the worst containers imaginable.
;-)
Scarred
Joined: March 11, 2016
KitMaker: 1,792 posts
AeroScale: 28 posts
Posted: Sunday, November 26, 2017 - 08:34 PM UTC
Similar bottles used by different companies doesn't mean much. Testors and Pactra had similar bottles but were two distinct companies until Testors bought Pactra and killed the brand. AK and Ammo use similar bottles but are definitely two distinct companies. What's wrong with more choices in paint brands? Paint manufactures are just giving you a bigger selection to choose from. And not all paints are the same. Some shoot better than others while others brush better. Some brands can't be found in other countries. One brand may be more expensive than the other. Why do we have so many brands of water? Why do we have so many car companies? As far as I'm concerned there only needs to be one car company. Ford.
Kevlar06
Joined: March 15, 2009
KitMaker: 3,670 posts
AeroScale: 833 posts
Posted: Sunday, November 26, 2017 - 09:45 PM UTC
Before making judgements about wether we "need" another paint line, we should probably look at the line of paint, and see if it meets our "needs". In this case, True Color has been around for a few years and was originally developed as a Model Railroad paint. Lately they have branched out into mainstream modeling paints. It's been reviewed in several on-line articles and has been pretty well received. My LHS is carrying it, and it's available at several on-line locations. True Color is also actively developing lines of colors seeking modeler input. One important thing about this line is its developed and marketed here in the US, in Phoenix, so supply issues shouldn't be a problem like they are with Mr. Color (Gunze) lacquers, which are very hard to import into this country. So in answer to the question-- it's darn nice to live in an era when the customer can have such a wide selection. Wether we "need" this new line isn't as important as the fact it's available to us, and the manufacturer is actively seeking input from modelers in its color line development. Over on Armorama the True Color manufacturers have been seeking input and doing some unabashed announcements (advertisements) seeking input and have been requesting and posting photos of models finished in thier paint line. It's got my curiosity up enough that I'll probably give them a try, now that it's on the shelves in my LHS. By the way, I love Mr. Color-- but can't get it anymore. I loved Floquil, but can't get it anymore (Testors has seen to that). I was recently at my local Hobbytown, trying to replace some of my large stock of Tamiya colors, only to find they reduced thier stock of Tamiya, in prep for receiving the "new" line of Tamiya lacquers. So-- as far as I'm concerned, if somebody wants to release a new line of paints---great. Here's an early review of Tru-Color from 2012 over at Modeling Madness:
http://modelingmadness.com/scott/accessories/trucolor.htm
VR, Russ
http://modelingmadness.com/scott/accessories/trucolor.htm
VR, Russ
Joel_W
Associate EditorJoined: December 04, 2010
KitMaker: 11,666 posts
AeroScale: 7,410 posts
Posted: Sunday, November 26, 2017 - 10:17 PM UTC
My point simply was and still is that the total "pie" for paints hasn't increased, if anything the overall market in NA is decreasing as the older generations pass.
At some point the profit margins become so small that it's just not worth the effort nor time for the manufactures to continue to invest in keeping the lines up to date or even continuing them all together.
I have only one semi LHS left within a hours drive of my home, and he hasn't added any new paint lines in years. Still Model Master and Tamiya. As I said, my go to online resources are Sprue Brothers and Scalehobbyist.com. So what they carry is what I mostly buy. I do order from other online vendors like Ultracast and UMM-USA for specialty items. But ordering a few bottles of paint where the shipping will be nearly as much as the paint makes little sense.
As for the base of the paint being an issue, Lacquer, Acrylics, and water based acrylics are so numerous that there just isn't any justification for another line no matter how good the reviews are. Akan and Hataka are supposed to be excellent, and Akan is manufactured in NJ which makes two day normal delivery times to LI NY common place. Yet I've never ordered any paints from them.
If there was a real need for a better line of paints, I do think that Sprue Brothers' one of the leaders in online model retail would opt to carry it. They simply don't. what they've added is the specialty types of paints like weathering and Metalizers.
The example of too many car manufactures is a good example. The big 3 in the USA all took Govt bailouts starting in 2009 through 2013. Both Crysler and GM filed for Bankruptcy. The majority of stock as of 2013 was owned by the Federal Govt, which in effect makes them a nationalized industry. And it only cost the tax payer about $81 billion. All the loans have been repaid, and the stocks have been sold for a profit. The point is that the influx of so many car manufactures was more then the market could sustain. whether or not the competition made the cars better or not, the costs didn't go down, they became astronomical and even the traditional 3 year loan is a thing of the past.
Just be careful for what you wish for. You never know how it will turn out till it's too late.
Joel
At some point the profit margins become so small that it's just not worth the effort nor time for the manufactures to continue to invest in keeping the lines up to date or even continuing them all together.
I have only one semi LHS left within a hours drive of my home, and he hasn't added any new paint lines in years. Still Model Master and Tamiya. As I said, my go to online resources are Sprue Brothers and Scalehobbyist.com. So what they carry is what I mostly buy. I do order from other online vendors like Ultracast and UMM-USA for specialty items. But ordering a few bottles of paint where the shipping will be nearly as much as the paint makes little sense.
As for the base of the paint being an issue, Lacquer, Acrylics, and water based acrylics are so numerous that there just isn't any justification for another line no matter how good the reviews are. Akan and Hataka are supposed to be excellent, and Akan is manufactured in NJ which makes two day normal delivery times to LI NY common place. Yet I've never ordered any paints from them.
If there was a real need for a better line of paints, I do think that Sprue Brothers' one of the leaders in online model retail would opt to carry it. They simply don't. what they've added is the specialty types of paints like weathering and Metalizers.
The example of too many car manufactures is a good example. The big 3 in the USA all took Govt bailouts starting in 2009 through 2013. Both Crysler and GM filed for Bankruptcy. The majority of stock as of 2013 was owned by the Federal Govt, which in effect makes them a nationalized industry. And it only cost the tax payer about $81 billion. All the loans have been repaid, and the stocks have been sold for a profit. The point is that the influx of so many car manufactures was more then the market could sustain. whether or not the competition made the cars better or not, the costs didn't go down, they became astronomical and even the traditional 3 year loan is a thing of the past.
Just be careful for what you wish for. You never know how it will turn out till it's too late.
Joel
Bravo1102
Joined: December 08, 2003
KitMaker: 2,864 posts
AeroScale: 64 posts
Posted: Sunday, November 26, 2017 - 10:31 PM UTC
Just remember for every new paint line, one will probably go under or become unavailable in five years.
I have more and more trouble getting Humbrol and the latest reformulation dries up in the tin quickly and does not brush as well. And I miss my Polly-S/Pollyscale though the Badger acrylic line is very similar which is important to a brush painter.
I have more and more trouble getting Humbrol and the latest reformulation dries up in the tin quickly and does not brush as well. And I miss my Polly-S/Pollyscale though the Badger acrylic line is very similar which is important to a brush painter.
Kevlar06
Joined: March 15, 2009
KitMaker: 3,670 posts
AeroScale: 833 posts
Posted: Sunday, November 26, 2017 - 11:36 PM UTC
...and what I'm saying is hooray for a US company. It's like Spint vs AT&T-- I doubt we'll saturate the market so much that we'll throw up our hands and say "enough I give!" Tru-color has been out there a while now, and has just expanded into the aircraft and military vehicle paint market. I personally like it that they are "home grown" and seemingingly reachable. Try that with AK, Mig, Tamiya, Humbrol, Gunze or Vallejo. I've heard of Akan, but have never seen it anywhere. Testors is almost reachable (I worked in a LHS, and we were exclusively Testors distributors to other shops, foreign countries, and even distributing to the US government on occasion-- but frankly, it's more of the same with them and we started carrying Gunze, Humbrol and Tamiya because modelers tired of the same old line of paint--Humbrol being the worst seller, Gunze aqueous the next worst and Tamiya being the best selling import. We Carried Gunze Mr. Color too, until import restrictions killed it. But Testors beat them all because of the large variety of available offerings). I'm not a Tru-Color user yet-- I still have a large stock (400+ bottles) of paint, thanks to my employee discount-- (sometimes I even took pay in the shape of supplies or kits!) and have sizable stocks of Tamiya, Testors and Mr. Color, Alclad, and even a few dwindling bottles of Floquil on the shelves, but as these deplete, I think I'll give Tru-Color a try. I even have some Humbrol and Vallejo, but whereas Humbrol used to be top of the line paint (50 years ago) they are now among the least used-- and are mostly taking up space in my paint rack, and Vallejo seems to be heading the same way for me. The aqueous paints have thier uses, but for me, lacquers are the best (Mr. Color is my favorite, but almost impossible to get in this country). For those of you who think Testors is a nice company, understand they diversify thier product line and make a habit of eliminating competition-- great business model, but the effect is intellectual communism, and has seen the elimination of numerous US competitive brands including Polly-S, Floquil, Pollyscale and several other products from the market over the last several years. They'd love it if there was no competition whatsoever. For me I think it's better to have more than one US hobby paint manufacturer to choose from-- and if they can make a go of it, all the better for us hobbyists. As to why Sprue Brothers doesn't carry Tru-Colors, they don't carry a lot of things, but add new manufacturers and lines almost daily, so we'll see if Tru-Colors will make it and there are other distributors that are larger than sprue bothers in the US too.
VR, Russ
VR, Russ
Scarred
Joined: March 11, 2016
KitMaker: 1,792 posts
AeroScale: 28 posts
Posted: Sunday, November 26, 2017 - 11:37 PM UTC
Quoted Text
My point simply was and still is that the total "pie" for paints hasn't increased, if anything the overall market in NA is decreasing as the older generations pass.
At some point the profit margins become so small that it's just not worth the effort nor time for the manufactures to continue to invest in keeping the lines up to date or even continuing them all together.
I have only one semi LHS left within a hours drive of my home, and he hasn't added any new paint lines in years. Still Model Master and Tamiya. As I said, my go to online resources are Sprue Brothers and Scalehobbyist.com. So what they carry is what I mostly buy. I do order from other online vendors like Ultracast and UMM-USA for specialty items. But ordering a few bottles of paint where the shipping will be nearly as much as the paint makes little sense.
As for the base of the paint being an issue, Lacquer, Acrylics, and water based acrylics are so numerous that there just isn't any justification for another line no matter how good the reviews are. Akan and Hataka are supposed to be excellent, and Akan is manufactured in NJ which makes two day normal delivery times to LI NY common place. Yet I've never ordered any paints from them.
If there was a real need for a better line of paints, I do think that Sprue Brothers' one of the leaders in online model retail would opt to carry it. They simply don't. what they've added is the specialty types of paints like weathering and Metalizers.
The example of too many car manufactures is a good example. The big 3 in the USA all took Govt bailouts starting in 2009 through 2013. Both Crysler and GM filed for Bankruptcy. The majority of stock as of 2013 was owned by the Federal Govt, which in effect makes them a nationalized industry. And it only cost the tax payer about $81 billion. All the loans have been repaid, and the stocks have been sold for a profit. The point is that the influx of so many car manufactures was more then the market could sustain. whether or not the competition made the cars better or not, the costs didn't go down, they became astronomical and even the traditional 3 year loan is a thing of the past.
Just be careful for what you wish for. You never know how it will turn out till it's too late.
Joel
Where is your evidence that the hobby is dying? New companies have started designing and selling kits, paint manufacturers coming up with new products all the time. Old model companies are improving their old kits to todays standards and rereleasing them. New companies such as Meng and Takom have taken over and are putting out amazing kits! And thats just AFV modelling. Ship builders, aircraft junkies, auto gearheads and sci-fi fanatics are all seeing new kits, manufacturers, new paint and tools. It's not fading away as I got a nephew and a neice who are startingto build. But they're not interested in clubs, they talk about it on social media. So we're seeing a new generation of modeller.
I live on an island. It takes me an hour and a half to get to the mainland just to find a hobby store. There are a couple but they are geared towards RC. I could drive to south Seattle to get to a hobbyshop I know caters to plastic, but that takes half a day to get there and back, half a tank of gas, and two tickets for the ferry ride. Not to forget I'm a 100% disabled vet and driving is excruciatingly painful. So I do all my shopping online. I've tried Vallejo, Ammo of Mig, AK, Tamiya and I want to try Mission Models. And old paint brands have faded away. Pollyscale, Floquil and Pactra, all very good paints, dead. Some of these new brands will fail some will thrive, that is the nature of business.
Joel_W
Associate EditorJoined: December 04, 2010
KitMaker: 11,666 posts
AeroScale: 7,410 posts
Posted: Monday, November 27, 2017 - 12:53 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextMy point simply was and still is that the total "pie" for paints hasn't increased, if anything the overall market in NA is decreasing as the older generations pass.
At some point the profit margins become so small that it's just not worth the effort nor time for the manufactures to continue to invest in keeping the lines up to date or even continuing them all together.
I have only one semi LHS left within a hours drive of my home, and he hasn't added any new paint lines in years. Still Model Master and Tamiya. As I said, my go to online resources are Sprue Brothers and Scalehobbyist.com. So what they carry is what I mostly buy. I do order from other online vendors like Ultracast and UMM-USA for specialty items. But ordering a few bottles of paint where the shipping will be nearly as much as the paint makes little sense.
As for the base of the paint being an issue, Lacquer, Acrylics, and water based acrylics are so numerous that there just isn't any justification for another line no matter how good the reviews are. Akan and Hataka are supposed to be excellent, and Akan is manufactured in NJ which makes two day normal delivery times to LI NY common place. Yet I've never ordered any paints from them.
If there was a real need for a better line of paints, I do think that Sprue Brothers' one of the leaders in online model retail would opt to carry it. They simply don't. what they've added is the specialty types of paints like weathering and Metalizers.
The example of too many car manufactures is a good example. The big 3 in the USA all took Govt bailouts starting in 2009 through 2013. Both Crysler and GM filed for Bankruptcy. The majority of stock as of 2013 was owned by the Federal Govt, which in effect makes them a nationalized industry. And it only cost the tax payer about $81 billion. All the loans have been repaid, and the stocks have been sold for a profit. The point is that the influx of so many car manufactures was more then the market could sustain. whether or not the competition made the cars better or not, the costs didn't go down, they became astronomical and even the traditional 3 year loan is a thing of the past.
Just be careful for what you wish for. You never know how it will turn out till it's too late.
Joel
Where is your evidence that the hobby is dying? New companies have started designing and selling kits, paint manufacturers coming up with new products all the time. Old model companies are improving their old kits to todays standards and rereleasing them. New companies such as Meng and Takom have taken over and are putting out amazing kits! And thats just AFV modelling. Ship builders, aircraft junkies, auto gearheads and sci-fi fanatics are all seeing new kits, manufacturers, new paint and tools. It's not fading away as I got a nephew and a neice who are startingto build. But they're not interested in clubs, they talk about it on social media. So we're seeing a new generation of modeller.
I live on an island. It takes me an hour and a half to get to the mainland just to find a hobby store. There are a couple but they are geared towards RC. I could drive to south Seattle to get to a hobbyshop I know caters to plastic, but that takes half a day to get there and back, half a tank of gas, and two tickets for the ferry ride. Not to forget I'm a 100% disabled vet and driving is excruciatingly painful. So I do all my shopping online. I've tried Vallejo, Ammo of Mig, AK, Tamiya and I want to try Mission Models. And old paint brands have faded away. Pollyscale, Floquil and Pactra, all very good paints, dead. Some of these new brands will fail some will thrive, that is the nature of business.
My statement that the industry in the USA is decreasing is fairly accurate. Just look at how the few hobby shops stay in business: RC cars. I can't remember the last time I actually saw anyone under 30 in there buying plastic models. All my son's friends since they were young had absolutely zero interest in plastic modeling. Today they're all in their 30s. They grew up as gamers, not plastic modelers. Many looked at my display shelves, and current work, asked questions, then went back to gaming.
We've had this thread beat to death a few times, and it's never going to be resolved as hard data isn't really available. I do know that both local IPMS clubs membership has been in decline for years. IPMS contest/conventions have issues with attendance for a number of reasons. Cost drives elders away who live on a strict budget as kits and supplies continue to increase in price.
For that matter most of the traditional hobbies have the same issues as younger generations just have different interests.
But please, lets stay on topic so that everyone can have their say.
Joel
SteveAndrews
Joined: August 16, 2010
KitMaker: 693 posts
AeroScale: 551 posts
Posted: Monday, November 27, 2017 - 03:27 AM UTC
Hi guys
Interesting question Joel. I guess the answer in 'no' unless the new range offers something we don't have already. Their pitch seems to be super accurate colour (I'm looking at the new Real Colours ad from AK). I couldn't tell you if that's true or not, but its something designed to compete with other brands.
I've been testing the new Mission Models line and discovered they are quite translucent when the various additives are added, and also brush paint well. That's quite helpful in some circumstances. So I'll add a few more but stick to what I know best, simply because it works for me - Tamiya acrylics thinned with Mr Colour Levelling Thinners. The downside of that little brew is the flippin' mask I have to wear when I airbrush.
I guess paints will evolve with the hobby and our demands as modellers. I say give them a try and buy what works for you. Market forces will take care of what lasts and what doesn't. Nothing stands still, not even our world of plastic and paint. I guess we can choose to embrace change or fight it, but that last course seems like a losing battle to me. Full colour 3D printing anyone?
Happy modelling guys, whatever paint you choose.
Steve
Interesting question Joel. I guess the answer in 'no' unless the new range offers something we don't have already. Their pitch seems to be super accurate colour (I'm looking at the new Real Colours ad from AK). I couldn't tell you if that's true or not, but its something designed to compete with other brands.
I've been testing the new Mission Models line and discovered they are quite translucent when the various additives are added, and also brush paint well. That's quite helpful in some circumstances. So I'll add a few more but stick to what I know best, simply because it works for me - Tamiya acrylics thinned with Mr Colour Levelling Thinners. The downside of that little brew is the flippin' mask I have to wear when I airbrush.
I guess paints will evolve with the hobby and our demands as modellers. I say give them a try and buy what works for you. Market forces will take care of what lasts and what doesn't. Nothing stands still, not even our world of plastic and paint. I guess we can choose to embrace change or fight it, but that last course seems like a losing battle to me. Full colour 3D printing anyone?
Happy modelling guys, whatever paint you choose.
Steve
Cosimodo
#335
Joined: September 03, 2013
KitMaker: 1,808 posts
AeroScale: 195 posts
Posted: Monday, November 27, 2017 - 04:50 AM UTC
Hi Joel,
From my perspective down at the bottom of the world we have had very limited paint choice over the years. First it was Humbrol and it's tins, then came Tamiya which is great for spraying not for brushing and slack about developing specific colours for their kits and then MrHobby/MrColor which is good for both spraying and brushing but supply is very erratic. I think MrColor lacquers are probably the best I have used but as Steve said seriously toxic when thinned. Unfortunately the importer only brings them in once a year.
So as we have seen with new producers of kits, WNW, Meng, Takom etc so I am also happy to try new paint producers, AK, Mig etc. I buy pretty much everything on line now anyway including paint. At the moment I am trying Mig's early RAF set, it sprays and brushes well but I know they won't always have the colors I want. Maybe for my next ship, TruColor will have what I need.
Ultimately I am ambivalent to the supplier. I do disagree with your premise that isn't room for new manufacturers. The kit producers proved that and new paint producers will either survive on the quality of the product or move on.
cheers
Michael
From my perspective down at the bottom of the world we have had very limited paint choice over the years. First it was Humbrol and it's tins, then came Tamiya which is great for spraying not for brushing and slack about developing specific colours for their kits and then MrHobby/MrColor which is good for both spraying and brushing but supply is very erratic. I think MrColor lacquers are probably the best I have used but as Steve said seriously toxic when thinned. Unfortunately the importer only brings them in once a year.
So as we have seen with new producers of kits, WNW, Meng, Takom etc so I am also happy to try new paint producers, AK, Mig etc. I buy pretty much everything on line now anyway including paint. At the moment I am trying Mig's early RAF set, it sprays and brushes well but I know they won't always have the colors I want. Maybe for my next ship, TruColor will have what I need.
Ultimately I am ambivalent to the supplier. I do disagree with your premise that isn't room for new manufacturers. The kit producers proved that and new paint producers will either survive on the quality of the product or move on.
cheers
Michael
thegirl
Joined: January 19, 2008
KitMaker: 6,743 posts
AeroScale: 6,151 posts
Posted: Monday, November 27, 2017 - 06:22 AM UTC
Makes no diff to me . 3/4 of the paint I can't get any way because of shipping regulations . I stick with Tamiya and Vallejo brands
JPTRR
Managing Editor
#051
Joined: December 21, 2002
KitMaker: 7,772 posts
AeroScale: 3,175 posts
Posted: Monday, November 27, 2017 - 08:01 AM UTC
I hope that Tru-Color gains traction because it is another brand that does not have to be imported. Getting some European company's solvent paints over here can be difficult unless they are in stock in the states. (See The Girl's comment above.) And we need some readily available paint brands. Testors killed their only good lines - Polly Scale and Floquil - in favor of their home brand, and recently I read that they are preparing to drop the military Model Master line to focus on automotive colors. Pactra is but a memory to all but RC modelers.
Tamiya practically has a lock on Asia brands. Vallejo and AK and Life Color seem to be popular in hobby shops but most of those are acrylic.
Tru-Color has a huge range of railroad and accessory colors so they are an established line; they are solvent-based. Many modelers still prefer those of acrylics. Tru-Color is also very engaged with modelers for guidance on what military colors to develop and which sources to contact to make the most accurate colors possible.
I have tested Tru-Color and am enthusiastic about them, and certainly hope they are welcomed, and definitely hope they thrive.
Tamiya practically has a lock on Asia brands. Vallejo and AK and Life Color seem to be popular in hobby shops but most of those are acrylic.
Tru-Color has a huge range of railroad and accessory colors so they are an established line; they are solvent-based. Many modelers still prefer those of acrylics. Tru-Color is also very engaged with modelers for guidance on what military colors to develop and which sources to contact to make the most accurate colors possible.
I have tested Tru-Color and am enthusiastic about them, and certainly hope they are welcomed, and definitely hope they thrive.
Scarred
Joined: March 11, 2016
KitMaker: 1,792 posts
AeroScale: 28 posts
Posted: Monday, November 27, 2017 - 10:44 AM UTC
Polly Scale was the first acrylic paint I ever used but stopped after it was bought by Testors. For years I missed Pactra enamel, the flats were truly flat Testors being more semi-gloss, and I stopped using it when bought by Testors. They changed to glass bottles shortly before the buyout, but oldtimers will remember their plastic grenade bottles. If, as JP says, Model Master is dropping it's military colors than that is as good of reason as any other as to why there is another new paint brand. Nature and business abhors a vacuum.
Kevlar06
Joined: March 15, 2009
KitMaker: 3,670 posts
AeroScale: 833 posts
Posted: Monday, November 27, 2017 - 12:31 PM UTC
What Patrick and Fred have said above is exactly what I've tried to say, although they've managed to do it in much shorter prose. True Color is not a new paint line, they are just new to "military" modelers by expanding thier already extensive line. I just checked the Walthers catalog (Walthers is the largest model RR distributor in the world and makes Sprue Brothers and Squadron look downright anemic). Walthers caries 797 line entries for the Tru-Color paint line on thier website. I'm not sure I buy into "the hobby is on its way out" either-- I've been hearing that for years, but looking at the many new manufacturers, tools, lines of paint and kits being advertised and released, I can't help but wonder who's buying this stuff-- if we were really a dieing breed of folks, would manufacturers be making and selling all this new stuff? I think we're just seeing a different dynamic, not the end of the hobby industry. It's true, fewer youth are involved in the hobby (like we were in the 50s and 60s with kits in every drugstore). On the other hand, more folks are coming into the hobby world later in life than ever before-- it used to be the other way around-- as kids matured they gave up model building. Now, kids aren't interested in model building from the get go-- but as they mature they become interested. I can't speak for other areas, but our local clubs have more members than ever, and our annual shows here in the NW have more participants and entries than ever-- many are adults experiencing the hobby for the first time. The last show we had over 800 entries. Some of our demographic is aging (I'm 65 and have been building models since 1959), but there are still many folks entering the hobby in thier 20s, 30s and 40s to make up for us old codgers as we leave with our boots on. I've noticed another interesting dynamic-- many of those "kids" who had thier noses glued to computer screens (or its equivalent) a few years ago are maturing and are looking for other pursuits--after all, you can't keep looking at a screen your whole life, at some point they discover there's more in this world or eventually they become bored and die. It's true, the number of LHS's are down, but I no longer think its the result of folks leaving the hobby; It's more the convenience of the Internet, which has literally brought the hobby to our front door on a worldwide basis (I'm not an advocate of this, as I still love to troll my LHS's, but I understand this new economic dynamic-- it's no different than the dynamic between JC Penny and Amazon-- we still have to buy clothes from somebody, but we may not need to travel to do it now). So, in answer to Joel's very legitimate question--I believe there's room for more-- especially for a home based company that seems to be reaching out to the modeler for our input. I'm off the soap box now and promise I won't comment anymore. 
VR, Russ
VR, Russ
Scarred
Joined: March 11, 2016
KitMaker: 1,792 posts
AeroScale: 28 posts
Posted: Monday, November 27, 2017 - 03:38 PM UTC
On the new modelers: I occasionally get some of the modeling magazines and I read in the modellers bio that they're in their 20's or 30's and they've only been modelling for a few years. That shows that there are late blooming plastic fanatics.
On the paint issue: Some countries don't allow the importation of paints or glues as some are considered hazardous materials. So there is a market for a paint manufacturer right there. Also a local hobby shop may only carry a couple lines of paint because maintaining inventory on a lot of different brands is costly, so they'll carry the brands that sell. The one thing I miss about the brick and mortar hobby shop that I went to as a kid was they would order just about anything you wanted. Paint, glues, tools, materials they'd get it in about a week. That service has since been replaced by the internet.
On the paint issue: Some countries don't allow the importation of paints or glues as some are considered hazardous materials. So there is a market for a paint manufacturer right there. Also a local hobby shop may only carry a couple lines of paint because maintaining inventory on a lot of different brands is costly, so they'll carry the brands that sell. The one thing I miss about the brick and mortar hobby shop that I went to as a kid was they would order just about anything you wanted. Paint, glues, tools, materials they'd get it in about a week. That service has since been replaced by the internet.
gaborka
Joined: October 09, 2005
KitMaker: 626 posts
AeroScale: 264 posts
Posted: Monday, November 27, 2017 - 03:52 PM UTC
The reason for new paint lines is simple: it is a hugely profitable product. You can order a few gallons of paint from a chemical company, have it repackaged, and you can sell a paint that cost 25USD a gallon for 3USD / half oz. bottle. In marketing terms it is ideal because it generates renewed turnover. As far as modellers are concerned producers do not really care if you actually need it - marketing will sell it to you, just remember the concentraded marketing assault you see on Youtube or FB when MIG or AK releases just anything that seems to be new. Most modellers have been actually quite happy with their traditional Testors, Humbrol, Tamiya, Gunze paints, still the possible profits are worth enough for manufacturers to convince you to at least buy a few new paints (and the primer, and the thinner, and the airbrush cleaner....)
I think the turning point of model paints is the constant supply and quality from the point of view of modellers, and reasonable conditions for dealers. A complete paint rack with say 100 colors and 6 paint bottles per color is a considerable
investment for a stockist, and obviously some colors (black, white, silver, panzer gray...) are bought out quicker than other colors so constant re-stocking is necessary. If the manufacturer is too harsh to its dealers the result is hard availability.
I have tried at least 15 brands of paint, actually they were all useable for me, but nowadays I tend to prefer Mr Color for its reasonable pricing, hasslefree use and good availability.
I think the turning point of model paints is the constant supply and quality from the point of view of modellers, and reasonable conditions for dealers. A complete paint rack with say 100 colors and 6 paint bottles per color is a considerable
investment for a stockist, and obviously some colors (black, white, silver, panzer gray...) are bought out quicker than other colors so constant re-stocking is necessary. If the manufacturer is too harsh to its dealers the result is hard availability.
I have tried at least 15 brands of paint, actually they were all useable for me, but nowadays I tend to prefer Mr Color for its reasonable pricing, hasslefree use and good availability.
Joel_W
Associate EditorJoined: December 04, 2010
KitMaker: 11,666 posts
AeroScale: 7,410 posts
Posted: Monday, November 27, 2017 - 09:20 PM UTC
After reading all the replies and responding to a lot of them, it's become quite apparent that most of you would like to see a continuation of more paint companies each claiming the worlds greatest color selection, quality, and hopefully availability. For me to switch "gears", and lets say use Akan or True Color (both made in the USA) means ordering directly, & no discounts for sales, etc. It also means additional shipping charges as my usual practice of ordering everything for a build from lets say Sprue Brothers at one time is for me one stop shopping.
Profit margins for paint are astronomical as compared to any other facet of the hobby. If it wasn't, I somehow don't think that so many companies would be starting up. The other side of the coin is that the online or brick and Mortar companies are looking at another expense and stocking space issues, so the return has to be worth it to them.
Personally I don't like mixing paint brands for a build as I've had issues from time to time, so the paint line I choose for a build needs to have all the colors I need if I don't already have them. Sounds simple, but often I find that one or two colors are out of stock. Mig has been an issue for me as I started to switch to that brand, but between limited colors and availability I just keep on going back to Tamiya and mixing my own colors.
For me, I'll just stick with Tamiya for now. I do wish all these new paint companies luck as they're certainly going to need it.
BTW, the True color site has a feature where you can type in your zip code, and Hobby Shops that carry the line will pop up within a mileage limit you set. Two popped up for me within 10 miles. One just 3 blocks from my house! It's not a retail store or a online vendor as far as I know, but a private residence. The other less then 10 miles from my house shows doing a Google search is a private residence, but using google Maps comes up as a store in a strip mall. None are hobby shops in the pictures. Two others in the next county are major model railroad hobby shops with online presence and carry the paint lines for model railroading. Neither of which I have any interest in.
Joel
Profit margins for paint are astronomical as compared to any other facet of the hobby. If it wasn't, I somehow don't think that so many companies would be starting up. The other side of the coin is that the online or brick and Mortar companies are looking at another expense and stocking space issues, so the return has to be worth it to them.
Personally I don't like mixing paint brands for a build as I've had issues from time to time, so the paint line I choose for a build needs to have all the colors I need if I don't already have them. Sounds simple, but often I find that one or two colors are out of stock. Mig has been an issue for me as I started to switch to that brand, but between limited colors and availability I just keep on going back to Tamiya and mixing my own colors.
For me, I'll just stick with Tamiya for now. I do wish all these new paint companies luck as they're certainly going to need it.
BTW, the True color site has a feature where you can type in your zip code, and Hobby Shops that carry the line will pop up within a mileage limit you set. Two popped up for me within 10 miles. One just 3 blocks from my house! It's not a retail store or a online vendor as far as I know, but a private residence. The other less then 10 miles from my house shows doing a Google search is a private residence, but using google Maps comes up as a store in a strip mall. None are hobby shops in the pictures. Two others in the next county are major model railroad hobby shops with online presence and carry the paint lines for model railroading. Neither of which I have any interest in.
Joel
Kevlar06
Joined: March 15, 2009
KitMaker: 3,670 posts
AeroScale: 833 posts
Posted: Tuesday, November 28, 2017 - 12:52 AM UTC
Joel, I said I'd shut up, and I will, but I just want to say this-- I respect you and your opinion, and have marveled at your work here over the years. But I'd say not to limit yourself by not visiting those model Railroad shops in your area. I use lots of model Railroad stuff in my aircraft builds-- MV lenses for spotlights, glass beads for wingtip lights, EZ line for antennas, brass accessories for various add-ons and tons of model RR scenic materials for airfield dioramas. I use Pro-weld glue (available from Walthers but carried by many Model RR shops) which is the finest hot glue around. I'd say you could find a lot of materials available in these shops that cross over into aircraft modeling-- don't sell them short. In my local area the model RR shop is the closest hobby shop to me-- and I often fall back on them when I'm looking for aircraft decals-- they have an incredible line of numbers and letters in all fonts! So give them a try, you might be surprised at what they carry. Ok, now I'll shut up.
VR-- and I mean that-- Very Respectfully, Russ
VR-- and I mean that-- Very Respectfully, Russ
Joel_W
Associate EditorJoined: December 04, 2010
KitMaker: 11,666 posts
AeroScale: 7,410 posts
Posted: Tuesday, November 28, 2017 - 02:05 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Joel, I said I'd shut up, and I will, but I just want to say this-- I respect you and your opinion, and have marveled at your work here over the years. But I'd say not to limit yourself by not visiting those model Railroad shops in your area. I use lots of model Railroad stuff in my aircraft builds-- MV lenses for spotlights, glass beads for wingtip lights, EZ line for antennas, brass accessories for various add-ons and tons of model RR scenic materials for airfield dioramas. I use Pro-weld glue (available from Walthers but carried by many Model RR shops) which is the finest hot glue around. I'd say you could find a lot of materials available in these shops that cross over into aircraft modeling-- don't sell them short. In my local area the model RR shop is the closest hobby shop to me-- and I often fall back on them when I'm looking for aircraft decals-- they have an incredible line of numbers and letters in all fonts! So give them a try, you might be surprised at what they carry. Ok, now I'll shut up.
VR-- and I mean that-- Very Respectfully, Russ
Russ,
Thanks for those compliments, they're much appreciated. And never feel that you can't join in anytime in any thread on Aeroscale/Kit Netmakers, as that's what we're all about. Everyone's entitled to their own opinions, each is just as valid. I'm actually enjoying the discussion.
Long Island is just that a real long and very traffic orientated Island. Willis Hobbies is about a hour drive without traffic, while the other nationally online model railroad shop is a good 1 1/2 hrs with moderate traffic. I've been to each twice in the last 40 years. Willis does carry some plastics, and I really should take a look, and checkout the True Color paints.
Honestly, at this point I've been considering trying the Akan paints out of Linden NJ as I'm not all that thrilled with the Mig color selection, but I do really like the paints.
Joel
 |
WEB HOSTING BY
Copyright ©2021 AeroScale and Kitmaker Network, a subsidiary of Silver Star Enterprises
All Rights Reserved. Please read our Conditions of Use and Privacy Policy.
All Rights Reserved. Please read our Conditions of Use and Privacy Policy.