Michael,
Naval aircraft during the 30's had thier metal surfaces painted in a light gray color, while the lower wings and bottom surfaces of the upper wings were silver dope (on fabric surfaces). The upper surfaces were chromate yellow, which is a slightly more "orangish" shade of yellow than the Army used. I've found Testors Model Master light sea gray is a pretty close match for the metal parts. For the 1930s and up to 1940, the tail surfaces were painted in the ship assignement colors. Early on, cowlings were painted to represent the section position, with the flight leader having full color around the cowl, the other two aircraft in the section would have half cowls-- either the upper or lower half designating thier position in the flight. Aircraft were numbered corresponding to thier section and colors of the cowls, fuselage bands and wing chevron depended on the aircraft number. Somewhere I have a section and number reference- I'll see if I can dig it out.
VR, Russ
Hosted by Rowan Baylis
Monogram F3F-3 from many moons ago
Kevlar06
Joined: March 15, 2009
KitMaker: 3,670 posts
AeroScale: 833 posts
Posted: Sunday, January 28, 2018 - 11:15 AM UTC
165thspc
#521
Joined: April 13, 2011
KitMaker: 9,465 posts
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Posted: Sunday, January 28, 2018 - 11:36 AM UTC
Thank you Russ. My only other question would be how close is the silver of the model to the silver dope on the wings? I am thinking it is a bit too bright and shinny.
Kevlar06
Joined: March 15, 2009
KitMaker: 3,670 posts
AeroScale: 833 posts
Posted: Sunday, January 28, 2018 - 09:28 PM UTC
Michael,
My old kit is molded in a silver which is pretty close to the real thing. These aircraft were kept in pretty much spotless condition, and the silver dope on the wings had a nice sheen-- as the protective quality of the dope was enhanced by the gloss color. I've found Testors clear Sealer for Metalizers is the best match for this sheen, and can be sprayed over the entire model leaving a nice effect-- not too shiny, and not too gloss.
VR, Russ
My old kit is molded in a silver which is pretty close to the real thing. These aircraft were kept in pretty much spotless condition, and the silver dope on the wings had a nice sheen-- as the protective quality of the dope was enhanced by the gloss color. I've found Testors clear Sealer for Metalizers is the best match for this sheen, and can be sprayed over the entire model leaving a nice effect-- not too shiny, and not too gloss.
VR, Russ
165thspc
#521
Joined: April 13, 2011
KitMaker: 9,465 posts
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Posted: Sunday, January 28, 2018 - 10:18 PM UTC
Thank You Sir for the help!
165thspc
#521
Joined: April 13, 2011
KitMaker: 9,465 posts
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Posted: Monday, January 29, 2018 - 08:21 AM UTC
Second F3F kit has now arrived - let the cutting begin!
(Or how I extended the wings of the F3F.)
The article I read instructed us to add three ribs to the length of each of the four wings. Now someone is going to point out that my "splice" is four ribs wide. I lost one rib of the original wing in the cutting, I therefore made the splice (taken from the donor kit wing) four ribs wide. I made my saw cuts just to the side of each rib then flat sanded right up to the peak of the rib, hopefully for a good tight fit.
(Or how I extended the wings of the F3F.)
The article I read instructed us to add three ribs to the length of each of the four wings. Now someone is going to point out that my "splice" is four ribs wide. I lost one rib of the original wing in the cutting, I therefore made the splice (taken from the donor kit wing) four ribs wide. I made my saw cuts just to the side of each rib then flat sanded right up to the peak of the rib, hopefully for a good tight fit.
165thspc
#521
Joined: April 13, 2011
KitMaker: 9,465 posts
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Posted: Monday, January 29, 2018 - 08:37 AM UTC
Splicing on the first wing, top and bottom halves:
Note: I had already added an extra spar to brace the lower wing (center white Evergreen strip). That was before I learned that the wing would need to be extended therefore the old bracing had to get cut as well. I then added new bracing to strengthen the spliced extension.
I would suggest making sure the splice made to the top layer of the wing is staggered relative to the splice for the bottom layer of that same wing. If the splices are staggered the overall structure will be stronger and likely also have better alignment.
Note: I had already added an extra spar to brace the lower wing (center white Evergreen strip). That was before I learned that the wing would need to be extended therefore the old bracing had to get cut as well. I then added new bracing to strengthen the spliced extension.
I would suggest making sure the splice made to the top layer of the wing is staggered relative to the splice for the bottom layer of that same wing. If the splices are staggered the overall structure will be stronger and likely also have better alignment.
165thspc
#521
Joined: April 13, 2011
KitMaker: 9,465 posts
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Posted: Monday, January 29, 2018 - 08:43 AM UTC
One wing done - three to go!
Above one short wing and one extended wing.
I will have to do a little more smoothing to the front and rear edges of the wing then repaint.
Above one short wing and one extended wing.
I will have to do a little more smoothing to the front and rear edges of the wing then repaint.
AussieReg
Associate Editor
#007
Joined: June 09, 2009
KitMaker: 8,156 posts
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Posted: Monday, January 29, 2018 - 11:14 AM UTC
Very neat work Mike, impressive fix!
Cheers, D
Cheers, D
165thspc
#521
Joined: April 13, 2011
KitMaker: 9,465 posts
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Posted: Monday, January 29, 2018 - 09:00 PM UTC
Thanks Damian
_____________________________________________
Finished the entire lower wing last night but could not post till now. (Computer problems)
The drawings I have indicate a dihedral on the lower wings of two degrees. I just went with the angle that the Monogram model's wing stem produced. I think this is more like a 4 - 5 degree dihedral. Don't know but I might regret this later down the road.
_____________________________________________
Finished the entire lower wing last night but could not post till now. (Computer problems)
The drawings I have indicate a dihedral on the lower wings of two degrees. I just went with the angle that the Monogram model's wing stem produced. I think this is more like a 4 - 5 degree dihedral. Don't know but I might regret this later down the road.
165thspc
#521
Joined: April 13, 2011
KitMaker: 9,465 posts
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Posted: Monday, January 29, 2018 - 09:46 PM UTC
A rookie question:
Fire Extinguishers both US and British: if they were inside a vehicle were they painted red? Yes?
Also what color were the oxygen bottles in US and British aircraft? I think US aircraft had either pale green or yellow oxygen bottles but what about in British planes?
Fire Extinguishers both US and British: if they were inside a vehicle were they painted red? Yes?
Also what color were the oxygen bottles in US and British aircraft? I think US aircraft had either pale green or yellow oxygen bottles but what about in British planes?
Joel_W
Associate EditorJoined: December 04, 2010
KitMaker: 11,666 posts
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Posted: Monday, January 29, 2018 - 10:35 PM UTC
Quoted Text
A rookie question:
Fire Extinguishers both US and British, if they were inside a vehicle were they painted red?
Also what color were the oxygen bottles in US and British aircraft? I think US aircraft had either pale green or yellow oxygen bottles but what about in British planes?
From what I understand the oxygen bottles in US aircraft were painted Yellow. Early aircraft the fire extinguishers from the little information I've found over the last few years is that they weren't painted but left in the natural color of the tank. the handle was I believe painted red.
Impressive job extending the wings. this is going to be one of those epic builds for sure.
Joel
165thspc
#521
Joined: April 13, 2011
KitMaker: 9,465 posts
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Posted: Monday, January 29, 2018 - 10:54 PM UTC
Got tired of doin' the wing thing so I thought I would get a little . . . . vertical empennage. (tail)
Right hand tail profile drawing belongs to: Rogerio "Rato" Marczak
This modified extension is certainly less than perfect as the empennage should also be taller as well as longer to exactly match the military F3F profile. As you can see, I simply cut the rudder just behind the hinge and added more length to the piece.
I plan to also extend the rear of the fuselage to match the expanded profile of the rudder.
Right hand tail profile drawing belongs to: Rogerio "Rato" Marczak
This modified extension is certainly less than perfect as the empennage should also be taller as well as longer to exactly match the military F3F profile. As you can see, I simply cut the rudder just behind the hinge and added more length to the piece.
I plan to also extend the rear of the fuselage to match the expanded profile of the rudder.
165thspc
#521
Joined: April 13, 2011
KitMaker: 9,465 posts
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Posted: Monday, January 29, 2018 - 11:10 PM UTC
New extended bottom wing, old (unchanged) top wing.
165thspc
#521
Joined: April 13, 2011
KitMaker: 9,465 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, January 30, 2018 - 10:33 AM UTC
Wing extension construction complete"
Both top and bottom
Now doing some body work to smooth out a few of the rougher seams.
Both top and bottom
Now doing some body work to smooth out a few of the rougher seams.
Joel_W
Associate EditorJoined: December 04, 2010
KitMaker: 11,666 posts
AeroScale: 7,410 posts
Posted: Tuesday, January 30, 2018 - 11:33 PM UTC
Michael,
The top and bottom wings really look great. A little more prep work and once primed no one will ever be able to tell that you've extended them.
joel
The top and bottom wings really look great. A little more prep work and once primed no one will ever be able to tell that you've extended them.
joel
165thspc
#521
Joined: April 13, 2011
KitMaker: 9,465 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, January 31, 2018 - 02:34 AM UTC
Thank you Joel, attending to those concerns as we speak. (Slow going given all those little rib peaks to contend with and try to sand around.)
165thspc
#521
Joined: April 13, 2011
KitMaker: 9,465 posts
AeroScale: 375 posts
Posted: Wednesday, January 31, 2018 - 06:25 AM UTC
Here we go:
Finished - - Extended F3F wings. Here you can compare what the wings look like in scale with the body.
32 foot top wing - 29 foot 6 inch bottom wing.
Finished - - Extended F3F wings. Here you can compare what the wings look like in scale with the body.
32 foot top wing - 29 foot 6 inch bottom wing.
Joel_W
Associate EditorJoined: December 04, 2010
KitMaker: 11,666 posts
AeroScale: 7,410 posts
Posted: Friday, February 02, 2018 - 01:18 AM UTC
Michael,
Outstanding. they look absolutely perfect.
Joel
Outstanding. they look absolutely perfect.
Joel
165thspc
#521
Joined: April 13, 2011
KitMaker: 9,465 posts
AeroScale: 375 posts
Posted: Friday, February 02, 2018 - 04:04 AM UTC
Joel - would that that were true. Close inspection of some of the joints will show them to be less than perfect. I hope to finally get to the point where it at least will take a rivet counter type of person to find the patch lines.
I'm goin' for it!
I'm goin' for it!
165thspc
#521
Joined: April 13, 2011
KitMaker: 9,465 posts
AeroScale: 375 posts
Posted: Friday, February 02, 2018 - 04:22 AM UTC
Another aircraft modeling rookie question:
Why do modern model manufactures often include a 3D control panel (with full gauge rings, needles, switches, etc. molded in high relief) but then give you a totally flat, one piece decal to go over it?
It seems they would give you a 3D panel if you wish to hand paint the controls but then ALSO give you a flat or at least low relief panel to use with the flat one-piece decal.
I am guessing they figure you will simply sand the control panel flat if you so choose????
____________________________________
Another question: What the heck color is anthracite? Being from Kentucky I know a bit about hard, black, clean burning anthracite coal, (Phoebe Snow et al) but I do not know anthracite as a color. I have had two different aircraft models that specify the color "anthracite" (usually for the background color of the control panel). If I were to guess, based on my Kentucky upbringing, I would think that anthracite would be the darkest, blackest, glossy black (did I mention it is dark?) you have ever seen in your life but I suspect it might actually be a very dark gray?
So . . . . What the heck color is anthracite?
OK - I guess I found my own answer regarding the color. I found RAL 7016 dark gray. Have these guys ever laid eyes on a real piece of anthracite coal - charcoal black not gray!
Why do modern model manufactures often include a 3D control panel (with full gauge rings, needles, switches, etc. molded in high relief) but then give you a totally flat, one piece decal to go over it?
It seems they would give you a 3D panel if you wish to hand paint the controls but then ALSO give you a flat or at least low relief panel to use with the flat one-piece decal.
I am guessing they figure you will simply sand the control panel flat if you so choose????
____________________________________
Another question: What the heck color is anthracite? Being from Kentucky I know a bit about hard, black, clean burning anthracite coal, (Phoebe Snow et al) but I do not know anthracite as a color. I have had two different aircraft models that specify the color "anthracite" (usually for the background color of the control panel). If I were to guess, based on my Kentucky upbringing, I would think that anthracite would be the darkest, blackest, glossy black (did I mention it is dark?) you have ever seen in your life but I suspect it might actually be a very dark gray?
So . . . . What the heck color is anthracite?
OK - I guess I found my own answer regarding the color. I found RAL 7016 dark gray. Have these guys ever laid eyes on a real piece of anthracite coal - charcoal black not gray!
rdt1953
Joined: February 06, 2015
KitMaker: 1,098 posts
AeroScale: 900 posts
Posted: Friday, February 02, 2018 - 05:11 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Another aircraft modeling rookie question:
Why do modern model manufactures often include a 3D control panel (with full gauge rings, needles, switches, etc. molded in high relief) but then give you a totally flat, one piece decal to go over it?
It seems they would give you a 3D panel if you wish to hand paint the controls but then ALSO give you a flat or at least low relief panel to use with the flat one-piece decal.
I am guessing they figure you will simply sand the control panel flat if you so choose????
____________________________________
Another question: What the heck color is anthracite? Being from Kentucky I know a bit about hard, black, clean burning anthracite coal, (Phoebe Snow et al) but I do not know anthracite as a color. I have had two different aircraft models that specify the color "anthracite" (usually for the background color of the control panel). If I were to guess, based on my Kentucky upbringing, I would think that anthracite would be the darkest, blackest, glossy black (did I mention it is dark?) you have ever seen in your life but I suspect it might actually be a very dark gray?
So . . . . What the heck color is anthracite?
OK - I guess I found my own answer regarding the color. I found RAL 7016 dark gray. Have these guys ever laid eyes on a real piece of anthracite coal - way darker!
Hi Michael
You have answered .your own question to a degree- many kits do indeed give you two panels these days for just the reason you stated- one in relief/ raised details
for hand painting , the other flat for decal or photo etch .
First class job you are doing with that old kit BTW - I think you have earned the right to stop referring to yourself as a newbie.
So do you think the people in paint manufacturers color name department will come up with a color named Bituminous? ( a " softer " shade of Anthracite)
Enjoying your blogs - Richard
c4willy
#305
Joined: February 01, 2006
KitMaker: 1,673 posts
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Posted: Friday, February 02, 2018 - 05:13 AM UTC
Hi Michael I'm a Kiwi and our west coast (South Island) coal is a dark dark greasy black with a shimmer like oil on water. And it burns with a heat so intense it can melt your cast iron grate! LOL
As to the colour anthracite I believe it to be a dark murky grey. The raised relief on the instrument panel and decal is so you can get a three d printed look to your I.P. but you must use a decal softening agent to get it to settle over the details.
As to the colour anthracite I believe it to be a dark murky grey. The raised relief on the instrument panel and decal is so you can get a three d printed look to your I.P. but you must use a decal softening agent to get it to settle over the details.
165thspc
#521
Joined: April 13, 2011
KitMaker: 9,465 posts
AeroScale: 375 posts
Posted: Friday, February 02, 2018 - 05:24 AM UTC
I am now also working on an Arado Ar 196B - a beautiful, impressively engineered kit but even it does not offer a flat control panel so I was assuming this to be current state of the manufacturer's art. Apparently not!
I just did the control panel in the Arado last night - flat decal over a rather high relief set of gauges. It turned out acceptably well but I thought the decal would never draw down over the gauges. Once the setting solution was almost dry I took a knife and cut the decals between the raised gauges. This allowed the decal to finally draw down. Then a coating of Tamiya flat clear and finally a dot of Future Floor Wax on each gauge to represent glass.
I just did the control panel in the Arado last night - flat decal over a rather high relief set of gauges. It turned out acceptably well but I thought the decal would never draw down over the gauges. Once the setting solution was almost dry I took a knife and cut the decals between the raised gauges. This allowed the decal to finally draw down. Then a coating of Tamiya flat clear and finally a dot of Future Floor Wax on each gauge to represent glass.
165thspc
#521
Joined: April 13, 2011
KitMaker: 9,465 posts
AeroScale: 375 posts
Posted: Friday, February 02, 2018 - 05:28 AM UTC
Yes Chris the RAL 7016 is a dark murky gray - thanks mate.
165thspc
#521
Joined: April 13, 2011
KitMaker: 9,465 posts
AeroScale: 375 posts
Posted: Friday, February 02, 2018 - 07:26 AM UTC
Top photo: Here is the completed instrument panel from my Arado. Not as clean and precise as I had hoped but still nicely busy at this scale. (Currently I am holding off installing the control wheel and the heads-up display for now. Do not want to risk breakage.)
F.Y.I. - Eduard makes a pre-printed brass I.P. for the Arado.
Below: As covered earlier, the Matchbox F3F instrument panel was provided flat as was the one-piece instrument decal. The instructions called for an anthracite colored background but the clear decal sheet was printed only in black so I went with a much lighter shade of gray. Maybe my IP talents will improve with time, maybe!
Again I over sprayed with Tamiya matte clear then went back with dots of Future to represent the glass in the gauges. (I also added the two gauge bezels from my spares box just to give a little bit of depth to the instrument panel.)
F.Y.I. - Eduard makes a pre-printed brass I.P. for the Arado.Below: As covered earlier, the Matchbox F3F instrument panel was provided flat as was the one-piece instrument decal. The instructions called for an anthracite colored background but the clear decal sheet was printed only in black so I went with a much lighter shade of gray. Maybe my IP talents will improve with time, maybe!
Again I over sprayed with Tamiya matte clear then went back with dots of Future to represent the glass in the gauges. (I also added the two gauge bezels from my spares box just to give a little bit of depth to the instrument panel.)
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