This post is not being started as a complaint, nor to start a flame war.
I have just seen the the HpH B-36 Peacemaker kit listed on a vendor site, the price gave me sticker shock: $1079 USD. I understand this is a really large kit, and it is a fiber glass and resin kit with PE details, but the price puts it well out of my price range, as well as the size.
How much is too much for you when deciding you want a new kit?
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How much is too much?
SgtRam
Editor-at-Large
#197
Joined: March 06, 2011
KitMaker: 3,971 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 - 12:12 AM UTC
MLD
Joined: July 21, 2002
KitMaker: 3,569 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 - 12:31 AM UTC
Quoted Text
How much is too much for you when deciding you want a new kit?
I think it is like fine art, 'I'll know it when I see it'
This is for me for sure!, says the guy who has both a FM 1/72 M Falcon and a 1/16th Verlinden M113, but passed on Briegels and the beautiful MaK Sirene recently available.
bomber14
Joined: February 02, 2015
KitMaker: 330 posts
AeroScale: 286 posts
Posted: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 - 12:34 AM UTC
honestly kevin i think the kit manufacturers are overpricing and marking up the kits more than what the actual price should be in a lot of cases. i understand the level of detail and additional parts in the form of resin and pe affect the price but even with this i've seen kit that i am shocked they even have the nerve to price it so high.the problem is people will buy them at those prices but the manufacturers are only hurting themselves in my opinion because i feel they would sell more kits at cheaper prices. i know i have passed on many kits i would like but feel it was foolishly priced and i could probably find it MUCH cheaper from another maker even if it is older and not as detailed. my price range is usually $25-$30ish, once in a while i will splurge and go higher but like i said if the kits would come down to my price range i would splurge much more often. looking through squadron and spru brothers it is just rediculous the price of some of the 1/48 and 1/72 kits.
joe
joe
redcap
Joined: November 06, 2005
KitMaker: 753 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 - 01:31 AM UTC
Niche subjects such as the huge B-36 aside where there will be a likewise niche clientele for subjects like this, for mainstream releases it's a vicious circle isn't it. Modellers are constantly demanding they want etched parts, premium quality decals, individual (working) track links, metal barrels etc. and are often merciless - often to the point of trashing a kit- when even a minor angle or mm is "off" on a kit. All of these demands pushes up production costs for the package. Kits of today in terms of details and finesse etc were in many cases the stuff of dreams only 15-20 years ago.
So why then do many modellers (not at) still want new products at 'traditional prices' ?
The model companies are there to make money; not indulge a load of (predominantly) middle aged blokes or supplement their hobby.
I think many companies are in an impossible position getting the price right but where there is no excuse is the likes of Italeri etc. releasing 30+ years old mediocre ex- ESCI kits and asking modern prices simply because they have engaged in a 'lipstick on a pig' exercise by throwing some premium quality decals into the box.
Gary
So why then do many modellers (not at) still want new products at 'traditional prices' ?
The model companies are there to make money; not indulge a load of (predominantly) middle aged blokes or supplement their hobby.
I think many companies are in an impossible position getting the price right but where there is no excuse is the likes of Italeri etc. releasing 30+ years old mediocre ex- ESCI kits and asking modern prices simply because they have engaged in a 'lipstick on a pig' exercise by throwing some premium quality decals into the box.
Gary
Tojo72
Joined: June 06, 2006
KitMaker: 4,691 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 - 02:26 AM UTC
The most I ever spent for a was $225.00 for IJN Akagi,I don't see myself spending more then that.
Everybody has their own budget limitations and that can be balanced how badly one wants the kit.
Everybody has their own budget limitations and that can be balanced how badly one wants the kit.
Kevlar06
Joined: March 15, 2009
KitMaker: 3,670 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 - 02:47 AM UTC
I think it really depends on the kit. I for one don't think most kit manufacturers charge too much (MSRP) for thier kits. However, I've seen mark-ups by vendors which I thought were unreasonable. I used to work in an LHS, the owner named it "Discount Models" for a reason-- we primarily sold at a discount. He was very fortunate to start his business (his second career) with enough cash that he managed to buy in bulk, and could sell at a lower price point for most items. He also built relationships with other vendors who gave him good deals on "close outs", and he dealt in various areas of the hobby such as RC and balsa kits, making it easier to pass savings in one area to increases in another. But there are other vendors who either can't afford to do that, or are looking to "squeeze" every penny from a customer. The most expensive kit I've every purchased for myself was Tamiya's Mosquito, at over $200 USD. I seldom pay more than $130 for a kit-- and those would be Wingnut Wings Kits. Most of my "stash kits" are in the $20-40 range. A kit over $1000 would be unheard of, and frankly not worth the cost to me-- I just bought a refrigerator for $1099, which has a lot more utility than a large scale B36 in my opinion, and takes up about as much space! I suppose if you were independently wealthy, this kit would make sense. But I can tell you from my LHS experience, they probably won't make or sell a lot of them, which is why they are expensive. So they will be unique for anyone that does buy one.
VR, Russ
VR, Russ
CReading
#001
Joined: February 09, 2002
KitMaker: 1,726 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 - 03:05 AM UTC
The B-36 model is quite certainly out of my price range even if I had space enough for it (which I don't) In defense of the manufacturer's pricing (I assume the seller has around a 20% markup?), they do state that it is a limited run of 100 kits and it is very multi-media with reinforced fiberglass/resin/ PE etc.
I think it's trending, like fine art, for the cottage kit company to produce 'limited run' kits as it sort of creates a demand in that the thinking is 'better get one before they are all sold'
Regardless of the price there will always be buyers.
I remember when the 1:35 Leopold Rail Gun came out. I forget the price exactly but it was super expensive and equally as large. I think it may have had a limited run also but you don't see too many still around for sale and I've seen a bunch of model photos of the finished product. You make it and someone will buy it!
I think it's trending, like fine art, for the cottage kit company to produce 'limited run' kits as it sort of creates a demand in that the thinking is 'better get one before they are all sold'
Regardless of the price there will always be buyers.
I remember when the 1:35 Leopold Rail Gun came out. I forget the price exactly but it was super expensive and equally as large. I think it may have had a limited run also but you don't see too many still around for sale and I've seen a bunch of model photos of the finished product. You make it and someone will buy it!
drabslab
Joined: September 28, 2004
KitMaker: 2,186 posts
AeroScale: 1,587 posts
Posted: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 - 03:21 AM UTC
"It depends on the subject" is true in most cases.
but 1000 dollar is, for me personally, too much in all cases.
We should not forget that at the end, it is only a plastic model... and the importance is relative.
There will always be a market for things that are very expensive, if it makes the buyers happy, why not?
but 1000 dollar is, for me personally, too much in all cases.
We should not forget that at the end, it is only a plastic model... and the importance is relative.
There will always be a market for things that are very expensive, if it makes the buyers happy, why not?
MichaelSatin
Campaigns AdministratorJoined: January 19, 2008
KitMaker: 3,909 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 - 03:31 AM UTC
Yeah, they charge what they can get. If they can sell kits at the prices they charge, why would they change? I think the hobby is going more upscale as the typical modeler gets older and has more disposable income. This isn't good news for the future of the hobby as younger customers can't afford these kits and don't have the skills to tackle some of them. On the other hand, manufacturers like Airfix and Revell (assuming both of them stay in business) are putting out good quality, easier to build kits for reasonable prices. It just depends on what you want. It's good to have options, I just hope it can stay that way.
That said, I won't be getting any 1/48 B-36's in the near (or foreseeable) future.
Michael
That said, I won't be getting any 1/48 B-36's in the near (or foreseeable) future.
Michael
Bravo1102
Joined: December 08, 2003
KitMaker: 2,864 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 - 03:47 AM UTC
Building the addition to my house to fit a 1/48 B-36 would cost about the same as the kit so for me the price would effectively be double.
I don't build 1/48 because I haven't the room. I stick to arbitrary limits of $15 for single engine and $30 for multi engine. I can usually find the kits I want for those prices by shopping around.
For 1/35 armor I don't go over $40 unless the subject matter is super-duper extraordinaire (M48A1. First tank I ever saw in person as a kid) I usually refuse to go over $35 and been pleasantly surprised with the deals I have found on $70 msrp kits.
And with this hobby I don't need the wretched excess of photo etch and metal barrels and huge scales. When would I build it? How could I build it? No room, no budget so I have to limit myself. More power to those who build the big stuff, but just adding a huge box to the stash is pointless.
I don't build 1/48 because I haven't the room. I stick to arbitrary limits of $15 for single engine and $30 for multi engine. I can usually find the kits I want for those prices by shopping around.
For 1/35 armor I don't go over $40 unless the subject matter is super-duper extraordinaire (M48A1. First tank I ever saw in person as a kid) I usually refuse to go over $35 and been pleasantly surprised with the deals I have found on $70 msrp kits.
And with this hobby I don't need the wretched excess of photo etch and metal barrels and huge scales. When would I build it? How could I build it? No room, no budget so I have to limit myself. More power to those who build the big stuff, but just adding a huge box to the stash is pointless.
Naseby
Joined: October 15, 2010
KitMaker: 825 posts
AeroScale: 476 posts
Posted: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 - 05:38 AM UTC
Lets be honest here, its a business. You have to pay wages, thats Your biggest ticket. European, US and Japan companies will pay 3-4 times in wages to what the Ukrain or Chinese will, so there goes one part of the equasion. Wages dont care how old Your Italeri or (Polish) Revell molds are. You have new kits for both 10 bucks and 100 each Year, so every group can pick. Market is currently saturated and prices are made according to the market situation. Most modellers are located in wealthy countries and have more kits in stash than they can build (ask me how I know). Old kits get sold on Ebay so that there is space in the stash for new offerings. And its a hobby. I do collect a lot of things and if I want something realy bad, I have to pay for it. So No, its not too much...for somebody.
brekinapez
Joined: July 26, 2013
KitMaker: 2,272 posts
AeroScale: 158 posts
Posted: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 - 06:12 AM UTC
For all of you complaining about the cost or lack of space for kits this size, here's the thing:
You aren't the target audience.
You aren't the target audience.
Kevlar06
Joined: March 15, 2009
KitMaker: 3,670 posts
AeroScale: 833 posts
Posted: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 - 06:38 AM UTC
Quoted Text
For all of you complaining about the cost or lack of space for kits this size, here's the thing:
You aren't the target audience.
I have the space. And the money. It's just that I can't see paying $1000+ for a static model that will do what? After I'm gone, what would happen to it? I don't mind paying $20-40 or even $200 for a kit and getting the building pleasure and "the display" pleasure out of them. But for me, something like that is best left to a Museum who will display it for hundreds or thousands of folks. Or to see it actually flying as an RC model. It's like a car-- it will immediately lose value the minute it's "driven of the lot"-- and then will be gathering dust. I can get a lot more pleasure from less costly builds. But you are right-- there are some who will just want it because they've always dreamed of a large scale B-36, and there's nothing wrong with that either. It's just not very practical. But I suppose Models in general are not practical. They are a hobby.
VR, Russ
brekinapez
Joined: July 26, 2013
KitMaker: 2,272 posts
AeroScale: 158 posts
Posted: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 - 07:24 AM UTC
And while there are many who find this Peacemaker kit exorbitantly priced, has anyone here ever checked out the larger ship kits, like the 1/200 and larger items? Nichimo's Yamato RC/static kit sells around the $900-%1000 range and you still have to buy a 2-channel radio, battery and charger if you go for the RC setup. I know of at least one fellow who is into museum-size naval vessels, and his display area literally could be mistaken for an actual museum the way he has it all arranged. He'd probably have more walking space if he got rid of the ship models and turned it into a Mini Cooper showroom. How much would a 1/96 scale U.S.S. Essex cost? And from what I can see looking at sites like scaleshipyard.com, you have to source a lot of your own parts so basically you're buying a $900 vacuform kit that you still have to put a lot of time and work into. At least Hph gives you the bulk of what you need to finish their kit.
That said, I think the Perfect Grade Millennium Falcon may be the upper limit of my spending (unless the HKM Lancaster MSRP's above that).
That said, I think the Perfect Grade Millennium Falcon may be the upper limit of my spending (unless the HKM Lancaster MSRP's above that).
ernietheviking
Joined: January 15, 2010
KitMaker: 13 posts
AeroScale: 2 posts
Posted: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 - 07:29 AM UTC
Interesting point. One will probably part with £800-900 ($1200-1300) for 1/4 Rossi bike.
Its the only game in town and I want one and can afford it.
Now the HK 1/32 Fortress is a more difficult one. It cost £230 ish in the UK and to truly make an awesome model, needs a lot of very expensive after market. Should it not already have that (or near) level of detail?
How about Revel 1/32 Mustang V Tamiya ? £30 v £90.
Its the only game in town and I want one and can afford it.
Now the HK 1/32 Fortress is a more difficult one. It cost £230 ish in the UK and to truly make an awesome model, needs a lot of very expensive after market. Should it not already have that (or near) level of detail?
How about Revel 1/32 Mustang V Tamiya ? £30 v £90.
sherb
Joined: August 25, 2004
KitMaker: 752 posts
AeroScale: 14 posts
Posted: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 - 07:51 AM UTC
Yesterday, when I saw the price tag on the Peacemaker I had a brief moment of sticker shock until I remembered I recently purchased the Tamiya 1/16 RC Abrams for about the same amount.
I struggled with purchasing it and ultimately decided it was something I really wanted (the Abrams though the Peacemaker is pretty darn cool). Of course, I was willing make the sacrifice of selling off a bunch of other kits and collectibles I had in the stash to get it. A relocation of assets so to speak.
It's still providing hours of enjoyment in building and detailing and the kids and I are having a blast chasing each other with it around the house. Had it been a static model instead of RC I don't know that I would have felt the same way and probably wouldn't have been able to justify it. There is a certain finality to completing a model and sticking it on a shelf.
These days I'm a lot more selective (frugal) with the kits I purchase. Not every kits needs three additional sets of photo etch and/or metal tracks just because they're available.
I struggled with purchasing it and ultimately decided it was something I really wanted (the Abrams though the Peacemaker is pretty darn cool). Of course, I was willing make the sacrifice of selling off a bunch of other kits and collectibles I had in the stash to get it. A relocation of assets so to speak.
It's still providing hours of enjoyment in building and detailing and the kids and I are having a blast chasing each other with it around the house. Had it been a static model instead of RC I don't know that I would have felt the same way and probably wouldn't have been able to justify it. There is a certain finality to completing a model and sticking it on a shelf.
These days I'm a lot more selective (frugal) with the kits I purchase. Not every kits needs three additional sets of photo etch and/or metal tracks just because they're available.
krow113
Joined: March 16, 2010
KitMaker: 473 posts
AeroScale: 101 posts
Posted: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 - 07:57 AM UTC
I just paid almost $800 CDN for a MFH 1940 Knucklehead model.
The manufacturer here (B36) is on point , knows the target buyer and has priced accordingly. Anyone who thinks this is a kids hobby is delusional and the guys who are in the hobby who want certain kits , have the dough to buy them .
And being in the custom fabrication market , I'm all for keeping prices up.
I've watched the sign industry go from talented skilled , dedicated workers to: "hey I bought a computer , now I'm a sign guy".
Meaning I've watched my income slowly decline , no matter how many new process' I try, trying to keep my head above water.
Some days I'm glad I don't have a gun.
The manufacturer here (B36) is on point , knows the target buyer and has priced accordingly. Anyone who thinks this is a kids hobby is delusional and the guys who are in the hobby who want certain kits , have the dough to buy them .
And being in the custom fabrication market , I'm all for keeping prices up.
I've watched the sign industry go from talented skilled , dedicated workers to: "hey I bought a computer , now I'm a sign guy".
Meaning I've watched my income slowly decline , no matter how many new process' I try, trying to keep my head above water.
Some days I'm glad I don't have a gun.
ghauser
Joined: March 07, 2011
KitMaker: 158 posts
AeroScale: 15 posts
Posted: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 - 10:10 AM UTC
Quoted Text
This post is not being started as a complaint, nor to start a flame war.
I have just seen the the HpH B-36 Peacemaker kit listed on a vendor site, the price gave me sticker shock: $1079 USD. I understand this is a really large kit, and it is a fiber glass and resin kit with PE details, but the price puts it well out of my price range, as well as the size.
How much is too much for you when deciding you want a new kit?
Not sure how many they got but they sold them all in 1 day!!!!
rdt1953
Joined: February 06, 2015
KitMaker: 1,098 posts
AeroScale: 900 posts
Posted: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 - 11:20 AM UTC
A couple of points worth considering here - the tooling for resin kits costs less but the kits themselves are more labor intensive to produce - one reason many resin kits cost more.
The next point is the concept of " economy of scale " - simply put this means the cost of development , tooling and ultimate production is spread out over the number of units sold . A kit that costs $ x to produce will cost less if a great many units are produced /sold than the same kit if only a few are produced/ sold.
Obviously the 1/48 B 36 is not for everyone- hence the low production number.
If one considers the the amount of labor involved in producing cast resin components then you must multiply that by a HUGE factor for hand layup fiberglass parts.
Given all of this - high production costs AND small buyers market - I'm surprised that it's price is not greater .
I would not pay that amount for this kit but only because I am not that interested in it. If someone were to offer a Ki 43 in a very large scale with all aluminum construction for the airframe - ready formed fuse / wing skinning with photo etch rivet detail , resin power train , cockpit etc - you get the idea- I would likely remortgage the ranch to have one !
Different horses for different courses as they say .
Fun to think about - Richard
The next point is the concept of " economy of scale " - simply put this means the cost of development , tooling and ultimate production is spread out over the number of units sold . A kit that costs $ x to produce will cost less if a great many units are produced /sold than the same kit if only a few are produced/ sold.
Obviously the 1/48 B 36 is not for everyone- hence the low production number.
If one considers the the amount of labor involved in producing cast resin components then you must multiply that by a HUGE factor for hand layup fiberglass parts.
Given all of this - high production costs AND small buyers market - I'm surprised that it's price is not greater .
I would not pay that amount for this kit but only because I am not that interested in it. If someone were to offer a Ki 43 in a very large scale with all aluminum construction for the airframe - ready formed fuse / wing skinning with photo etch rivet detail , resin power train , cockpit etc - you get the idea- I would likely remortgage the ranch to have one !
Different horses for different courses as they say .
Fun to think about - Richard
bomber14
Joined: February 02, 2015
KitMaker: 330 posts
AeroScale: 286 posts
Posted: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 - 03:03 PM UTC
Quoted Text
And while there are many who find this Peacemaker kit exorbitantly priced, has anyone here ever checked out the larger ship kits, like the 1/200 and larger items? Nichimo's Yamato RC/static kit sells around the $900-%1000 range and you still have to buy a 2-channel radio, battery and charger if you go for the RC setup. I know of at least one fellow who is into museum-size naval vessels, and his display area literally could be mistaken for an actual museum the way he has it all arranged. He'd probably have more walking space if he got rid of the ship models and turned it into a Mini Cooper showroom. How much would a 1/96 scale U.S.S. Essex cost? And from what I can see looking at sites like scaleshipyard.com, you have to source a lot of your own parts so basically you're buying a $900 vacuform kit that you still have to put a lot of time and work into. At least Hph gives you the bulk of what you need to finish their kit.
That said, I think the Perfect Grade Millennium Falcon may be the upper limit of my spending (unless the HKM Lancaster MSRP's above that).
this person is the exception not the norm. as far as i'm concerned no kit should be that much. granted it is understandable for a limited run non mainstream maker to charge more. i would give them that.
also-Gary N- i don't need all the photo etch and so on. if i want that i will buy it separately. i want new kits at reasonable prices.for instance- eduard puts out their profi pack kit with everything in it and usually a weekend edition of the same kit that are supposed to be at cheaper more affordable price for people who are on budget or just want to build a pure plastic kit, which is great. but recently now i notice even the wkend kits prices are going up. kits that were around $25 w/out pe are now around $35 an they have added nothing more to it, it's the same style of wkend kit as the past kits.
Cosimodo
#335
Joined: September 03, 2013
KitMaker: 1,808 posts
AeroScale: 195 posts
Posted: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 - 07:13 PM UTC
Quoted Text
This post is not being started as a complaint, nor to start a flame war.
I have just seen the the HpH B-36 Peacemaker kit listed on a vendor site, the price gave me sticker shock: $1079 USD. I understand this is a really large kit, and it is a fiber glass and resin kit with PE details, but the price puts it well out of my price range, as well as the size.
How much is too much for you when deciding you want a new kit?
The shock I got from this is the amount the vendor is charging. On HpH Eshop they are selling this B-36 at 475 euros or about USD 550.
Even allowing for postage and taxes that's one serious margin.
As I guess with most consumer items in life you pay want you to spend, that's why there is something for everyone. I wouldn't spend that amount on a model of a plane but a 1/350 carrier with etch, plus airwing, paint plus postage to this next of the woods there is no change out of 500 bucks. That's what I am building now and it will provide serious grief for many months. Love it.
cheers
Michael
gaborka
Joined: October 09, 2005
KitMaker: 626 posts
AeroScale: 264 posts
Posted: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 - 07:15 PM UTC
I think the producer made some considerations: a large scale B-36 is certainly a niche product for better incomes. Would they sell more if the model was 800 USD instead of 1080? Maybe 1-2 pieces more but in this case storage and building space is almost as important as the price itself, which is beyond the budget of most of us anyway. So they make a little extra on these, all good. And, they have publicity.
Bravo1102
Joined: December 08, 2003
KitMaker: 2,864 posts
AeroScale: 64 posts
Posted: Wednesday, June 27, 2018 - 12:08 AM UTC
There is the point where it goes from being a hobby and a purchase and it becomes a passion and an investment.
More power to those with that kind of commitment but for me such huge expensive projects never work out.
More power to those with that kind of commitment but for me such huge expensive projects never work out.
Joel_W
Associate EditorJoined: December 04, 2010
KitMaker: 11,666 posts
AeroScale: 7,410 posts
Posted: Tuesday, July 03, 2018 - 03:06 AM UTC
As some have pointed out, the HPH B-36 is targeted to a nitch sector of the large scale market. There are a few builders/collectors on LSP that will buy this kit. The level of detail is way beyond anything we've seen in any of the smaller scales.
HPH's PBY-5A Catalina was around $900, and they sold quite a few. Here's a few pictures of Kent's incredible build. It's a cut-a-way with super interior detailing, while solving the display space by NOT modeling the outer sections of the main wing on both sides.
Joel
HPH's PBY-5A Catalina was around $900, and they sold quite a few. Here's a few pictures of Kent's incredible build. It's a cut-a-way with super interior detailing, while solving the display space by NOT modeling the outer sections of the main wing on both sides.
Joel
ghauser
Joined: March 07, 2011
KitMaker: 158 posts
AeroScale: 15 posts
Posted: Tuesday, July 03, 2018 - 03:26 AM UTC
Quoted Text
There is the point where it goes from being a hobby and a purchase and it becomes a passion and an investment.
More power to those with that kind of commitment but for me such huge expensive projects never work out.
There is an HPH B-36 listed on Ebay by a vendor for $1250. These may become more of a collector item than a model to be built
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