Hello everyone!

Im new here, so I'd like to say hi and ask my first question. (I hope you can help.)
When I was younger I enjoyed building plastic model aircraft, and I built many, but they were never done with the care they deserved, especially when painting.

Recently, I decided to buy a few models that appeal to me more than most others, and I have decided that these will be done as exact as I can. I have so far bought Academy's AH60L DAP in 1/35, and I plan to buy Academy's F-18C in 1/32 and Academy's F-16C block 40-50 also in 1/32.

So, looking at the instructions for the AH-60, I see that the painting instructions are not very specific, and the paint colors asked are quite non-specific. Later, I see a Testors website and I see hundreds of different colors. So, my question is, how accurate are the colors made by Academy? Should I buy paints with the same name by other companies? Or rather, is there a way to find the specific colors needed and then buy them from whoever? As I said, I really want total accuracy, so I really want to fully research this and get the best paint possible.

Thank you for your replies.

Perhaps I need to be less specific. Does anyone here have anything to say about Academy aircraft? Anything I should know? Any tips or things to watch out for?

Another question I just thought of; who makes the best glue? Are they all pretty well the same? Are some garbage while others work very well?

Hi Chris, welcome to Armorama and especially to the aircraft forum

I can't really help with specific colours as I don't usually build modern stuff. It won't be long though until others, more knowledgeable than me will see your post.
I can say that this is a regular problem, because model manufacturers always use their own brand of paints, when giving colour information. Unfortunately, very often, their colours are only approximate and sometimes not even close. What I have done is to find a model paint manufacturer that gives me a wide selection of accurate colours (I use enamel paints and my preferred brand is made by WEM White Ensign Models, called Colourcoats, I also use Xtracolor)
What I would suggest is that you find a paint series that is readily available to you and in your preferred medium, enamel or acrylic, then find out the FS number (more in a mo) of the colour that you require. Knowing this will enable you to find the correct colour in the paint range of your choice.
FS stands for "Federal Standard", an American paint matching system, which consists of 5 numbers eg FS14031 US Army Helo Drab (found in the Xtracolor range). The first number gives the hue, matt, semi matt or gloss, as this range of paints are all gloss then they all start with 1. I assume that US Army Helo Drab as a matt hue and the correct FS number would therefore be FS34031. Anyway I hope you see my point, get the correct official number then you can find a model paint to match. The FS standard is not the only one around and there are other designations for colours manufactured in different countries. However I believe that the FS standard effectively covers most colours you are ever likely to need, with a few exceptions. I build WWII era aircraft so I'm not up on the current FS colours for modern aircraft, but like I say there are others here who are.
You can ask here for the correct FS colour for the specific parts of your models, which should give you a start. I would further suggest that you don't become a slave to total colour accuracy, because there is no such thing. The only way to achieve this would be to build a full size model using the official full size and colour paint, then shrink the model, and therefor the paint pigment and colour down to your preferred scale. Having said that you will be able to find, in most cases, pretty accurate paint for your projects.
I hope this has been of some help, and remember this is just my opinion
Mal

Hi again Chris, you must have posted while I was typing my reply. Don't worry others will be along, when their hangovers have subsided :-)
As far as glue goes it's a bit of whatever takes you fancy and are you refering to tube glue or liquid glue? Most modellers these days use liquid glue, I never use Tube glue. Forgive me as it's difficult to know (impossible really) what you do or don't know. Never fear we are willing to help you through the minefield, if that's what you need
I can point you to the info about how to use liquid glue should you need it
Mal

Thank you for your reply!

I dont know much about modeling. All I know is what I self-taught myself more than 5 years ago, so not a lot. I always used the tube glue, but 5 years later, I can see that it doesnt hold up, and that the older models are falling apart. Anything you can tell me about liquid glue would be very helpful. As for the FS numbers, I think I saw some when going over the instructions for my AH-60, but I didnt recognize them for what they were. If I understand you correctly, the number is essentially a universal code for the colors lm looking for? I can use any company that makes this color and it should be more or less correct?

Anything at all you can tell me is, Im certain, new information, so feel free to assume Im completely new. (Which I sort-of am)

As for everyone else, I suppose that many other people here are from North America, and would still be asleep. I am Canadian, but am in Lyon, France right now, so it makes sense that you and I are here now. I guess Im too impatient for my own good.

Anyways, thanks again, and if you dont mind, please tell me more about liquid glue; which is best, how its used, ect.

Thank you!

You can buy (or could?) a paint chip fan which shows you all the colours recognised by the FS system. I think it's expensive though? I don't have one as I have knowledge built up over the years. I actually rely, to some extent on a listing of Xtracolor enamel paints, that gives FS numbers as well. Do cross reference stuff where you can though cos mistakes are made. I also have a Humbrol colour chart that compares other companies paint references plus gives a short listing of FS equivilant numbers to Humbrol colours. I get back here with a link that might help, if I can find it



Essentially yes but when an FS number is given in instructions that is, hopefully, the correct colour. In alot of cases it is implying that the manufactures colour is that FS colour but, their paint, isn't actually the right shade. It is a minefield and I would recomend finding a brand of paint that has accurate colour matches. I've said what I use but everyone has their own preferences. Then use other means, Armorama, to identify the correct colours. You will quickly get a feel for what is right and wrong and which instructions give misleading info, just expect it, until you have built up your own data, it's all part of the "fun".

Here's a link to a few of my online builds, which may give you a few pointers. The FW 190D-9 was done with novices in mind (apart from the painting) and goes further into construction and what to look out for.
Online builds

This link is to an A-10 I was building to help someone, it isn't finished as they disappeared? but it explains using liquid glue (cement) Any questions get back to me As for which liquid cement is best? What ever you LHS (Local Hobby Shop) has will be fine, just avoid anything that says MEK (Methyl Ethyl Katon, or some such substance, it'll do you harm), a couple of brands; Tenex 7, Humbrol, Tamiya, Revell. All much the same. I'm using Humbrol at the moment, but it seems a little to runny for my liking.

A-10 build

If you haven't already done so you will have to login to the gallery, as it's located on a seperate site.

On another note, check out the Model of the Month MOM, we would love to see your efforts there Also check out the campaigns.

Mal

Ok, so I guess my next question is; are there any paint companies to avoid? I dont know to many (or perhaps I dont remember), I was always working from a small model shop and so by far I became most familiar with Testors, although on occasion I remember another company (MAYBE Tamiya... are they the ones with shorter tin cans, with the plastic cap the color of the paint? Perhaps more than one company is set up like that...)
I suppose maybe the best question to ask is, could you (or anyone) name some reputable paint companies for me? Just a few that I can look at on the web and maybe get some idea of their colors. Im not sure what kind of model shops are in my city, as I havnt been there for a long time (but I go home Jan. 1st) so I may be doing online shopping.

Thank you again.
Im off to discover all the stuff from the links you provided me with earlier.

Oh! And what is the difference between enamel and acryllic paint?

Thanks again.

Hi Chris!

Welcome to Armorama's Aircraft base!

Difference between enamels (Humbol) and acrylics (Tamiya, the brand with the small bottles and colored caps) are the following:
- Enamels are diluted with white spirit and need more time to cure/dry.
- Acrylics are water based and dry in a few minutes.
I mainly use Tamiya acrylics for airbrushing and never had problems with them. The do not smell, are easy to use (with Tamiya thinner) and dry very fast... But they have their weak points! They are very difficult to use with a brush and drybrushing is almost impossible with them. That's why I use Humbrol (drybrushing) and Prince august (figure painting).
As for the exact colors for your model, you don't have to be too worried about them in my opinion. Close to the original color is good enough. You always have to consider the following:
- Each paint manufacturer produces his own range of colors with different pigments.
- Quite often, the same color (say Olive Drab) is different from one manufacturer to the other.
- The same color can appear different if you use pre-shading, post-shading, filters, weathering etc...
- When you take pictures of your model (to display at Armorama for example), the colors will be digitaly interpreted by you camera. For each digital camera, a different color!
- Finally, your picture will be displayed differently on each computer screen (various brand, various settings, various technology etc...)
- To conclude, if the guy at the other side of the net has weak eyes or wears tinted glasses, you will admit that spending so much time to find that special shade of color can be exaggerated!
The only reason you would have to be VERY accurate is if you consider entering your model into a contest judged by color specialists (the Luftwaffe colors experts for example).

To sum-up. Don't get mad with those colors and have fun...

Jean-Luc

Thank you for your reply!

How important do you all think Air Brushing is? Is it a must? Or can everything be done by regular brush? I dont think an airbrush set is cheap (maybe Im wrong) but I dont really want to spend the money on one now unless they are indispensible. That said, and noting the above post, it seems that I want enamels. So, what companies besides Humbrol make enamel paint? I looked at a website that sells humbrol, and it seems they have their own numbering system, so I would like to find a company that has or uses the FS system. Or maybe I have the wrong idea?

Any thoughts here would be appreciated.

Jean-Luc has pointed out the main differences between enamels and acrylics, but there is more to them than first appears and it really depends on whether you are hand brushing or airbrush painting. And for some there are other reasons for choosing the type of paint.
I like acrylics for their fast drying time, mainly because there is less chance of dust getting trapped in the paint while it dries. However the fast drying time has one major disadvantage, for me at any rate. That is that, when spraying complicated freehand schemes, the paint rapidly dries on the spray tip, clogging the airbrush. If this isn't delt with early it may spatter paint onto the model, there is a simple cure, a Q Tip to clean the nozzle, but you have to do this every few seconds. With enamels you never have this problem, so I use enamels. You can also speed up the drying time of enamels, so rendering the biggest advantage of acrylics obsolete. Not all acrylics are thinned with water and require special thinner for them to work properly. You can thin enamels with several mediums, white spirit, turpintine or cellulose, the brands I use, Xtracolor and Colourcoats, are thinned with dirt cheap white spirit. You can mix that 50/50 with cellulose thinner to dramatically speed up the drying time.

I wouldn't say to avoid any paint brand It really depends on your preferance to type of paint, and what you can get at a reasonable price. If you look in the reviews section there are a couple of paint reviews.

Keep you questions coming

Mal

Hi (again) Chris!

An Airbrush is not a "must" have but a "better to" have! :-) It has two advantages: achieve a better finish and produce those special camouflage paintshemes that are impossible to do with a brush like typical WW2 Luftwaffe ones. On real aircraft, camouflage is generaly airbrushed...
I would buy an airbrush set as soon as possible and avoid those spray cans. They are expensive and difficult to use. They could give you the impression Airbrushing is not "that good"... but it is! I bought a Tamiya compressor with Airbrush for the Plastic Model Club I created in my School. I must say it's a good product with everything included for about 150 € (210 Canadian $).
I can't help you much with enamel paints. As I said, I use Humbrol for drybrushing and used revell ones (for airbrush) some times ago. I switched to Tamiya acrylics for ease of use and because they are available in almost every Hobby shop here in France. Maybe someone else can help you...

EDIT: Mal was again faster than me... :-) Yes I think he's right. Each modeler uses the paint that best suits to him (for various reasons). So the best for you is to try several brands and make yourself an idea...

Jean-Luc

I would say that airbrushing is the way to go, but airbrushing is a technique that has to be learnt. Airbrushing itself isn't difficult it's the understanding of the paint that is the key. You need to know what is the correct thinner and how much thinner to paint is required. Then there is the question of spraying pressure and the type of airbrush you have. There are probably as many spraying techniques as there are paint brands I have developed mine of 20 years and last year went from a single action airbrush to a double action. I am self taught, as there was no internet back then so it was a long process. One on one I could teach you how to airbrush well in an hour. If you go the airbrush route we can talk you through it. It is possible to get a, relatively cheap set up. Tool Mart and other tool outlets, in the UK sell reasonable starters airbrush for about £25. You can possible get a second had Diaphragm compressor for under £50, you will need a moisture trap and regulator. So it is possible to get set up for under £100, but you have to think where you are going to do your spraying.
So Hand brushing is probably the way forward, at first. The trick to getting good at this is to use multiple thin coats. Acrylics would be ideal for this, because of their rapid drying time, but therein lies a problem, brush strokes may show up in the paint, plus acrylics, generally don't brush too well. Although Lifecolor is very thick, when compared to other acrylics and they do a thickener, which helps.

I don't think that any model paint producer exclusively uses the FS system to identify it's colours. Remember not everyone (not many?) modellers have access to the FS numbering system. What you probably need is paint that tells you what the colour actually is. Not just Grey, but Ocean Grey, or Medium Sea Grey, this tells you what you need to know. Colourcoats use this method and where appropriate give the FS, BS (British Standard), RLM (ReichLuftMinisterium) etc, etc this really works well, as you know exactly what you are getting, so I like this method. In most cases I think that Xtracolor (Hannants own brand) uses the FS system, along with colour names. Xtracolor are not good for hand brushing though, as several coats are required.

Mal

Thanks again guys! You've given me a lot to think about. I will let you know what I end up doing and Im sure I will have questions again, so you'll hear from me soon!
Thanks again!

Hello again!
I found this aircrush set on ebay. It seems to have everything I need, I think, and its price is low enough that, while I shouldnt, I will buy it if you guys think it is ok. Will this do the job? Or is it not worth the money at all?

http://cgi.ebay.ca/New-In-Box-Testor-A3205-Airbrush-and-Blue-Compressor_W0QQitemZ8244963826QQcategoryZ28111QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem#ebayphotohosting

OY! On my screen the link was really long, I hope it works ok.
What do you guys think? Am I being unrealistic to want to spend so little on an airbrush set? I think I dont need one too complex, as I work with modern aircraft that dont have complicated paint schemes.

Sorry for all the questions. Im sure they are quite amatuerish, but I dont want to make any mistakes during the build.

Thanks again!

Damn, I just noticed the sticker in the picture says 32$. I guess Im getting ripped off. Ok, well, do any of you guys know off hand any good starter airbrush sets? Somthing in the lower price range but will not be worthless to me?

Again, sorry for all the questions.

Thanks!

Before buying a second hand Airbrush from someone else. Might I suggest looking around the net first.

Testors and Bearair .coms have a good selection and may be within your budget constraints.

Also if you have an arts and craft store near you like a Michaels or an A.C Moores they also have airbrushes that are pretty reasonably. Plus you may get lucky and get a 40-50% off coupon.

One other thing I can suggest is at my Local Hobby Shop. There is the old Pasche airbrush. I believe it goes for about 25-35 bucks..

The real main cost of an airbrush is the compressed air you are going to need... The cans will cost you about $10 a piece. Where as a compressor may run %50 to upwards of hundreds of dollars.

Hope this helps and gets you where you need to go

Paul

Back to the paints, Testors Model Master brand has their colors listed by name and corresponding FS#. They also have both an acrylic and enamel line. I use their enamels exclusivelsy. Their colors are spot on to what I see in the motorpool on modern US vehicles every day. They work well for me. They brush easily and thin great with some lacquer thinner for spraying through an airbrush. I won't use anything else.

I also highly recommend a good airbrush. I have a Pasche H model that I have used for about 18 years and it still works great. A good home compressor that you can get from Wal-Mart or the likes is also a must. Be sure to get one with a air tank as well. They run for under $100.

For the Academy MH-60L DAP (AH designation is incorrect and not used by the US Military for the Blackhawk series. MH stands for Multi-mission Helo and denotes a SpecOps bird.), the correct exterior color is flat black. For a standard UH-60A/L, overall color is US Army Helo Drab Green, FS #34031, and is in both the Testors MM enamel and acrylic lines. You can see my Academy Blackhawks, MH-60L DAP and UH-60L, at the View My Selected Link tag below.

Good Luck.

Thank you for your replies. And thank you for pointing out my mistake with the MH/AH designation. There was a time not long ago that I knew, and prided myself on knowing, stuff like that. I guess Im slipping!

As for the DAP, may I ask exactly what color you used for the exterior? The instructions call for 90% FS37038 Flat Black and 10% FS36118 Dark Grey. Would you say thats correct or not?

As for the Air Brush, I essentially need the following?

Air Brush
Compressor
Air Tank

I will look into the companies you named for me now, and let you know if I have more questions. Thanks again for everything! Im quite happy I found this forum!

Alright. Here is where Im at.

Im considering buying:

http://www.dixieart.com/HSet.html (Paasche H (Siphon Feed) Set-Complete))

and

http://www.bearair.com/prodinfo.asp?number=120139

What else do I need? Are these two things compatible?

Its incredible how little I know about this stuff.

Thank you everyone for your help!

I used simple flat black from spray can for my DAP. I believe it was Krylon Camo Ultra Flat Black, but any flat black will do.

The airbrush set is the exact one I have and it is great. Highly recommended.

I would not recommend the Testors compressor. It is only useful for running an airbrush and doesn't have an airtank. Without an airtank, the paint will spit out more than flow evenly. All compressors pulse, due to the way they operate. The airtank collects the pressurized air and allows it to come out in an even, steady flow. You can't really regulate the presuure out of it either. It isn't that good. I am talking about a household compressor that can be used for other things like inflating tires and running small air tools as well. Here is an example. This model runs about $100.


That is basically the setup I have, but I bought the pieces separately and put them together. I bought mine before they had the low cost home compressor/tank combos, about 16 years ago. I mated a Sears Craftsman 3/4 HP compressor to a 3 gallon air tank and added gauges and fittings. I still have the same setup and it is going strong. It will last a long time and is a good investment as opposed to the Testors one.

I have the exact compressor Gino showed us. It is a great little thing that you can run in the house. I can use it at 3 in the morning and not disturb the family.


The only issue I have with it is when I push the button on the airbrush the pressure drops about 5 pounds. I overcame that by setting the pressure 5pound over what I needed. Also it does not come with a water trap but $6 solved that problem.

This model I found at Walmart for about 50-60 dollars at the most.

I have had mine for 3 years and it still works as good as the day I bought it.

Paul

Hello again guys! Happy New Year! I just have a small question that stems from curiosity more than anything. With regards to liquid glue, I was wondering how it differs from the tube stuff that is sold as well. Ive used a bit of the liquid stuff, and it seems quite good and strong but Im really suprised because it goes on so thin. I know with the tube glue, it seems to almost melt the plastic slightly and the two peices come together that way, but how does this liquid stuff work? Maybe its a stupid question, but Im wondering.

Liquid glue works the same way to "weld" the pieces of plastic together. It is used more sparingly because it is a much more concentrated formula, a little goes a long way.

By the way, did you make a decision on an airbrush/compressor combo?

Hello again!

As I was in Europe for the last while, I only recently dicovered that my father has an air-compressor by the same company that I may use. As for the airbrush, I plan on buying that Paashe H just as soon as I have some free cash.

I also just discovered that I can be incredibly stupid. I just now discovered that my MH-60 DAP is missing an entire part tree. As I bought the damn thing in Europe, the option to return doesnt exist. So another kick in the balls.

How is everyone else doing?