"Hi all,

I may have brought this up before, but I don't think we tried to narrow the field down.

On very early Schwerin built Fokker D.VII that were accepted with BMW motors they carried the designation "Fok. D.VII XXX/18F". There is a great photo on page 310 of Over the Front, Vol.17, Nr.4, Winter, 2002 showing two early D.VII /18F. They are 325 and 377.

Here is background information for what is the possible pool of early "/18F" D.VII airframes.

We can speculate that 231/18 thru 377/18F are also designated "/18F"s, but it is only speculation until we find some photos of the following aircraft.

231/18 accepted April 25th BMW Nr. V.5 experimental.
294/18 accepted May 8th BMW Nr. 1234.
295/18 accepted May 3rd and August 15th BMW Nr. 1233.
314/18 accepted May 4th BMW 1229.
323/18 accepted May 3rd BMW 1236.
325/18F accepted May 4th BMW 1232.*
342/18 accepted May 25th BMW 1230.
362/18 accepted May 3rd BMW 1239.
367/18 accepted May 8th BMW 1241.
369/18 accepted May 7th BMW 1242.
371/18 accepted May 10th BMW 1240.
377/18F accepted May 15th BMW 1244.*

The next numbers would be either D.VII XXX/18F or D.VIIF XXX/18.

378/18 accepted May 15th BMW 1243.
404/18 accepted May 22nd BMW 1245.
407/18 accepted May 23rd BMW 1249.
448/18 accepted May 31st BMW 1251.
449/18 accepted June 4th BMW 1253.
450/18 accepted June 4th BMW 1248.
451/18 accepted June 4th BMW 1268.
452/18 accepted June 5th BMW 1250.
453/18 accepted June 5th BMW 1270.
454/18 accepted June 6th BMW 1260.
458/18 accepted June 5th BMW 1262.
459/18 accepted June 5th BMW 1258.
460/18 accepted June 6th BMW 1246. (serial designation is D.VIIF)

We know Fok. D.VIIF 461/18 from a postcard and also shown in Fokker Anthology 1, page 30.

D.VIIF 461/18 accepted June 7th BMW 1261.*

There may be a couple of transition numbers that don't follow the rule of 461/18 but you would expect soon after for them to be "uniform" to the D.VIIF format.

462/18 accepted June 7th BMW 1254.
463/18 accepted June 5th BMW 1275.
464/18 accepted June 8th BMW 1264.
465/18 accepted June 12th BMW 1267.
466/18 accepted June 10th BMW 1266.
467/18 accepted June 6th BMW 1259.
468/18 accepted June 7th BMW 1269.
469/18 accepted June 7th BMW 1271.
482/18 accepted June 29th BMW 1285.
484/18 accepted July 30th BMW 1337.
490/18 accepted July 3rd BMW 1265.
491/18 accepted June 14th BMW 1278.
492/18 accepted June 27th BMW 1257.
493/18 accepted June 19th BMW 1272.
494/18 accepted June 17th BMW 1282.
497/18 accepted June 17th BMW 1276.
498/18 accepted July 8th BMW 1284.
499/18 accepted July 2nd BMW 1280.
500/18 accepted June 29th BMW 1277.
501/18 accepted July 5th BMW 1331.
502/18 accepted June 19th BMW 1282.
505/18 accepted June 22nd BMW 1273.

This is all of the BMW acceptances for the 227 -526/18 batch.

The next BMW acceptances are in the 4250-4449/18 batch and I feel certain those would be outside of the transition area.

If anyone can find any photos of the above aircraft showing the serial number designation, please post your observation and we will try to narrow down another "fun fact" concerning the D.VII.

* = those aircraft observed in photos showing "/18F" or "D.VIIF".

Of mention, this is close to the same area where we have serial numbers changing from white to black (approx. 378/18), and fuselages changing from streaky to lozenge (approx. 374-376/18). One could speculate the "F" designation may have also transitioned at this point, but we will need more observations to confirm this. I would say 378/18 and 404/18 would be key aircraft. No one has a photo of 378/18 so far, so maybe 404/18 is out there?

Best,
Dave Watts"

Hi all,

I thought I'd go ahead and post this on a separate note.

First off I go into the possibility of MvR having flown a D.VII at the front.

Secondly I go into the markings of early D.VII including BMW powered examples.

When was it they switched lettering formats on BMW "F" designated D.VII?

Was it the early format on the first Fokker batch only, then the later format on the subsequent batches?

"Fok. D.VII 294F"
"Fok. D.VIIF 4252"

Let me state up front from the evidence we have at this date and time, there is no proof that MvR flew a D.VII in combat or one was delivered to him before his death. The number one statement against delivery is there is no photographic evidence of MvR with a D.VII to support it and the interest of this potential photo-op would have been too good to have been passed up by other pilots or even Fokker.

My point of discussion was more of a "what if". Logistically there is no reason MvR could not have had a D.VII before April 21st.

Mercedes must have had a fresh wet ink order from the Armee to send motors to Fokker before they were shutting the gates at the airfield at Johannestahl and closing the 1st D class Fighter Trials around February 19th, as we have Daimler shipping 10 D.IIIa motors on February 22nd. Another 10 were shipped on March 4th, 11 on the 5th, 9 on the 8th, 10 on the 11th, 9 on the 19th, and 10 on the 20th to close out March shipments totaling 69 motors.

The Armee Acceptance sheets for Fokker are missing for the months of February and March. From reverse logic of utilizing the other remaining acceptance sheets we can subtract the known acceptances from the pool of aircraft ordered from the Armee and believed to have all been delivered, we can deduce the aircraft that were accepted in the unknown months of.February and March to be 24;

227/18 = V.11/i or V.11/ii tested to destruction for type test.
228/18 = V.18 brought up to final D.VII form standard.
229/18 = V.21 considered to be the true D.VII final form.
230/18 = Aircraft submitted by Fokker to Adlershof, I believe covered by Adlershof and then given to Albatros.

232/18
233/18
234/18
235/18
236/18
237/18
238/18

240/18

242/18
243/18
244/18
245/18

247/18
248/18
249/18
250/18

252/18
253/18
254/18

256/18

The above missing sequential aircraft numbers are to be found in the listings of aircraft accepted in later months from Fokker. Logistically, I don't see how anyone can argue that one of these above accepted aircraft couldn't have gotten to MvR, if the "powers that be" wanted it to happen.

I've used the case of the two solitary F.I triplanes being rushed to the front as evidence that if it was deemed that a D.VII was ordered to be in the hands of MvR ASAP, they at the least could have gotten either 228/18 or 229/18 on the airfield at the front.

Michael Backus wrote earlier in the thread he refernced from acepilots.com.

Manfred von Richthofen, a great influence on German fighter plane development, looked forward anxiously to the D VII, writing Kogenluft on April 2, 1918:

"When can I expect to receive the [new] Fokker biplanes with the high compression engines? The superiority of British single-seat and reconnaissance aircraft makes it even more perceptibly unpleasant here. Their single-seaters fight by coming over at high altitudes and staying there. We cannot even shoot at them. Speed is the most important factor. We could shoot down five to ten times as many if we were faster. ... Please give me news soon about when we can count on the new machines."

Most likely MvR is referring to the new high-compression Mercedes motors, but with his plea, they likely would have known he would prefer a BMW.

This lends credence to the likelihood since MvR did not receive a D.VII before his demise, I would speculate 231/18F could be considered the best candidate of the intended aircraft for MvR. It was the first D.VIIF to have an early "experimental" BMW motor (Nr.V.5) and it wasn't until May 3rd that the 2nd BMW (Nr.1236) powered D.VII, 323/18F was accepted. 231/18F was accepted April 25th, (note just days after MvR's death), but it appears it was very likely used by Fokker as far back as March for demonstration purposes.

Fokker retained 229/18 = V.21( Mercedes powered) and 231/18F (BMW powered) as "yardsticks" (or maybe better stated "Meter sticks" in this case), to measure against the other new aircraft at the 2nd D Fighter trials, and ol' 231/18F was still on hand at the 3rd D Fighter trials.

The argument could be made that since Fokker retained 229/18 and 231/18F he would have done the same even if MvR survived, and then we would look at the first BMW powered D.VIIF's as "best bets". Let's go with Lloyd's posting of May 20th JG1 receiving D.VII's as the first known shipment of D.VII's to the front. On that basis here is a listing of every possible one;

294/18F Accepted May 8th BMW Nr.1234
314/18F Accepted May 4th BMW Nr.1229
323/18F Accepted May 3rd BMW Nr.1236
325/18F Accepted May 3rd BMW Nr.1232
362/18F Accepted May 3rd BMW Nr.1239
367/18F Accepted May 8th BMW Nr.1241
369/18F Accepted May 7th BMW Nr.1242
371/18F Accepted May 10th BMW Nr.1240
377/18F Accepted May 15th BMW Nr.1244
378/18F Accepted May 15th BMW Nr.1243

It could be argued the last two D.VIIF's being accepted on the 15th of May would be too late to make it into the shipment to arrive at the airfield on the 20th...it's close, (all other BMW acceptances were after the 20th and therefore not possible), I went back and looked at the photo from Peter Kilduff of JG1 and you can see "325/18F" and "377/18F" in the aircraft lineup, so May 15th made it with the others.

As an aside tie-in, I discussed in a previous thread on D.VII white serial numbers, these aircraft would have either had black serial numbers with streaky finished fuselages, while others would have had white serial numbers with streaky and/or lozenge covered fuselages.

227/18 - 305/18 = black "bestell" serial numbers
306/18 - 314/18F = so far unobserved
315/18 - 377/18F = white "bestell" serial numbers
378/18F = so far unobserved
379/18 onwards = back to black "bestell" numbers

227/18 - 373/18 = streaky finish fuselages
374/18 - 376/18 = so far unobserved
377/18F onwards = lozenge finish fuselages


Best wishes,
Dave W.

. . .The "F" designation is something that appears to be utilized by only Fokker in the lettering of Fokker D.VII with BMW motors. Albatros/OAW did not utilize this lettering. I don't believe I've ever read a source explanation for it. The speculation is, the "F" designation is for the aircraft being built by Fokker and it carried a BMW motor. The speculated reason for Fokker to do this is he was trying to lay claim to the BMW motor and this would be a way for the BMW to find its way back to him if the aircraft was found to be non-airworthy, but the motor salvageable! I really don't know if that is true and if it worked.

We do have some supporting evidence from the Armee Acceptance Sheets repeated acceptances of the same BMW motor in different Fokker D.VII;

BMW Nr.1247 D.VIIF 4364/18 Accepted August 21st
BMW Nr.1247 D.VIIF 5121/18 Accepted September 13th

BMW Nr.1248 D.VII 450/18F Accepted June 4th
BMW Nr.1248 D.VIIF 7685/18 Accepted October 14th

BMW Nr.1282 D.VII 494/18F Accepted June 17th
BMW Nr.1282 D.VII 502/18F Accepted June 19th
(I believe the above motor number is a typo on one of the aircraft, (likely 494) should be motor Nr.1281, acceptance dates too close and motor number 1281 is missing out of sequential motor numbers, range of 1257 - 1309, accepted in other D.VIIF)

BMW Nr.1301 DVIIF 4275/18 Accepted July 19th
BMW Nr.1301 D.VIIF 4434/18 Accepted August 21st
BMW Nr.1301 D.VIIF 5136/18 Accepted September 21st

BMW Nr.1309 DVIIF 4285/18 Accepted July 19th
BMW Nr.1309 D.VIIF 4431/18 Accepted August 21st
BMW Nr.1309 D.VIIF 5120/18 Accepted September 24th

BMW Nr.1319 DVIIF 4298/18 Accepted July 19th
BMW Nr.1319 D.VIIF 5051/18 Accepted August 21st

BMW Nr.1329 DVIIF 4373/18 Accepted August 17th
BMW Nr.1329 D.VIIF 5137/18 Accepted September 30th

BMW Nr.1337 DVIIF 4331/18 Accepted July 23rd
BMW Nr.1337 D.VII 484/18F Accepted July 30th

BMW Nr.1342 D.VIIF 4358/18 Accepted August 16th
BMW Nr.1342 D.VIIF 5131/18 Accepted September 17th

BMW Nr.1346 D.VIIF 4360/18 Accepted August 17th
BMW Nr.1346 D.VIIF 5116/18 Accepted September 26th

BMW Nr.1348 D.VIIF 4371/18 Accepted August 16th
BMW Nr.1348 D.VIIF 5108/18 Accepted September 7th

BMW Nr.1353 D.VIIF 4410/18 Accepted August 21st
BMW Nr.1353 D.VIIF 5127/18 Accepted September 9th

BMW Nr.1354 D.VIIF 4390/18 Accepted August 21st
BMW Nr.1354 D.VIIF 5119/18 Accepted September 12th

BMW Nr.1359 D.VIIF 4429/18 Accepted August 20th
BMW Nr.1359 D.VIIF 5117/18 Accepted September 4th
BMW Nr.1359 D.VIIF 7710/18 Accepted October 8th

BMW Nr.1363 D.VIIF 4439/18 Accepted August 21st
BMW Nr.1363 D.VIIF 5135/18 Accepted September 25th

BMW Nr.1365 D.VIIF 4367/18 Accepted August 17th
BMW Nr.1365 D.VIIF 5109/18 Accepted September 12th

BMW Nr.1369 D.VIIF 4420/18 Accepted September 2nd
BMW Nr.1369 D.VIIF 7629/18 Accepted September 28th

BMW Nr.1370 D.VIIF 4441/18 Accepted September 2nd
BMW Nr.1370 D.VIIF 7610/18 Accepted October 8th

BMW Nr.1372 D.VIIF 4432/18 Accepted September 2nd
BMW Nr.1372 D.VIIF 7609/18 Accepted September 18th

BMW Nr.1373 D.VIIF 4443/18 Accepted August 21st
BMW Nr.1373 D.VIIF 5125/18 Accepted September 11th

BMW Nr.1376 D.VIIF 4426/18 Accepted September 7th
BMW Nr.1376 D.VIIF 4433/18 Accepted August 30th

BMW Nr.1380 D.VIIF 4407/18 Accepted August 16th
BMW Nr.1380 D.VIIF 5115/18 Accepted October 2nd

BMW Nr.1408 D.VIIF 5065/18 Accepted September 6th
BMW Nr.1408 D.VIIF 5148/18 Accepted October 17th

BMW Nr.1411 D.VIIF 5064/18 Accepted September 6th
BMW Nr.1411 D.VIIF 7635/18 Accepted September 27th

BMW Nr.1420 D.VIIF 5097/18 Accepted September 5th
BMW Nr.1420 D.VIIF 7618/18 Accepted September 18th

Sorry to post all of them, but I like to show raw source data so other may make their own conclusions I may miss, and/or they may use it for some other insight to another Fokker riddle.

I don't see any trends, like a batch of recovered BMW motors going to Fokker and being accepted on the same date, but I guess things do get blurry when you try to put it down to exact dates...that's too restricting.

We have 27 instances of Fokker re-installing a BMW out of 247 total BMW acceptances, (not including Opel built BMW's, none of which were re-installed). That shows about a 12% rate, is that enough to show any trend of motors being shipped back to Fokker because they were "his"?

There are around 14 instances of Mercedes motors being shipped back to Fokker and were re-installed out of approximately 556 Mercedes total acceptances. That's about 2%, much less than the BMW, so there may be a possibility?? It can be said that Mercedes motors were readily available as compared to the BMW, so there would be much less a likelyhood for them to be re-cycled back to Fokker in the first place.

The bottom line is Fokker was getting BMW motors back from salvaged aircraft!

One may try to make the statement that the "F" was simply to make the distinction between the BMW and Mercedes powered aircraft to aid field commanders to group alike aircraft together for optimum attack. I think thin ice on that one. We have the letters from Goring when he was commander crying about the shortage of "F" D.VII, and the mismatch of D.VII when trying to attack. He certainly knew what a D.VII "F" was, he just couldn't get enough of them!

Best wishes,
Dave W.

New direction;

Has anyone done the exercise of figuring out how many "F" D.VII were made from Fokker, Albatros and OAW? We can only speculate, it will be a ball park number, but better than nothing.

I'll start the ball rolling by using the serial numbers of BMW motors. Lowest/highest serial numbers recorded by Fokker acceptances are 1229/1682, (Fokker also had/accepted motor Nr. V.5), that equals 455 motors as an absolute minimum. There are also the Opel BMW motors, Lowest/highest serial numbers recorded by Fokker acceptances are 12001/12146 that equals 146 motors. If we include the Mana III/IIIa motors lowest/highest accepted, they are 12/53 that equals 42 motors.

BMW #'s V.5 + 1229 - 1682 = 455.
Opel BMW #'s 12001 - 12146 = 146.
Mana #'s 12 - 53 = 42.

Total output = 643 "BMW" motors.

This is an absolute minimum, my guess is BMW could easily be 1200 - 1699, Opel could be 12000 - 12199, Mana 12 - 111. My expansion only raises the pool to 800, but we'll stick to the bare facts of 643.

We established Fokker recieved 220 BMW motors installed/accepted into 247/245 aircraft. 41 Opel BMW motors into 41 aircraft. 3 Mana motors installed into 3 aircraft, 2 accepted.

Total Fokker output of "F" aircraft = 291 made/ 288 accepted.

Using only the serial number ranges we are left with the following motor numbers for Albatros/OAW and everyone else like Pfalz D.XII.

BMW 255 motors
Opel 105 motors
Mana 39 motors

That gives us 399 motors for everyone else.

Once we get a pool number for Albatros/OAW we can use the same re-install rate of 12% of the strictly made BMW, no others/same as Fokker .

We could get into another discussion of how many of these would have seen action, but let's first nail down numbers made/accepted and more importantly who else got how many BMW motors from the limited pool of 400.

Okay, help me out with who else used the BMW IIIa and an idea of how many, rough estimates?

Also, what is the performance numbers for the Mana IIIa, as I'm including it at this time?


Best wishes,
Dave W.

Pertinent to this are data plates from Albatros werks, OAW both for BMW powered D.VII. The first is a Military ID tag which reads, (all hand struck);

D.7 6581 18

This would be aircraft "Fok. D.VII 6581/18"

Second is an aircraft manufacturer data plate, which reads;

"Albatros" werk Schneidemuhl

followed by hand struck;

FOK D7 F 3513

This wold be "Fok. D.VII 4616/18", werk number "3513".

What we can deduce from this, to a certain degree, is Fokker Werks and Albatros Werks both utilized an "F" designation to BMW powered D.VII, but the Military did not.

As to why they both did, we are still speculating. My earlier proposal of Fokker built D.VII carrying the "F" designation on the fuselage to boost the image of Fokker built D.VII with the "F" as being "the" hot plane, better than Albatros or OAW D.VII doesn't hold up very well, now that we see Albatros/OAW was utilizing the "F" designation, if not on the side of the aircraft, at least on the builder's plaque.

Best,
Dave W.

Fokker D.VIIF = 291 made/288 accepted out of 800 D.VII's built, (36% "F"s).
Albatros D.VIIF = approximately 220 made/accepted out of 1200 D.VII's built, (18% "F"'s).
OAW D.VIIF = approximately 239 made/accepted out of 1300 D.VII's built, (18% "F"'s).

Total D.VIIF = approximately 750 out of approximately 3300 D.VII's made = 23%,(less than a 1/4th).

All of which is enough to scramble your brain and make you lose the will to live!!

The WNW Fokkers are things of beauty. Build 'em OOB and be happy!

- Steve

All of which is enough to scramble your brain and make you lose the will to live!!

The WNW Fokkers are things of beauty. Build 'em OOB and be happy!

- Steve

Ok, but this is not just about the WNW Fokker D.VIIF. Several companies have turned out this version in different scales. The thread has a beginning starting about 6.5 years ago. Some of us like more than OOB, as evidenced in the outstanding builds in our past and present Early Aviation Group Builds. If it was not so we would not be the fastest rising topic in the Aeroscale forums.

Fair enough, just a couple of comments:

1) The point surely comes with every project at which the "desire for historical accuracy" becomes "paralysis by analysis".

2) Since when have building an already cracking kit OOB and producing an "outstanding build" been mutually exclusive?

That happens only if you don't plan. Its the biggest cause for half finished closet queens. Historical accuracy is a matter for the builder to decide. Here you get the info you can rely on if you want to go the extra mile.

Your assuming its just about one kit or scale.

220 BMW motors delivered to Fokker and accepted into 247 aircraft. There may have been a couple more BMW motors delivered that were used in experimental aircraft; V.24, V.34, V.36, and V.38 that were not accepted. Most likely the motors were salvaged for the next project, so possibly Fokker only held one in reserve. The V.24 was fitted with a Mercedes, a Benz, and a BMW.

There were 41 D.VII's accepted with Opel BMW's from September thru November. I can give you listings if wanted. It looks like Fokker recieved 2/3rds of the motors they produced. None were double accepted. I assume they carried the "F" designation. If so it's interesting that none ever came back for reissue/acceptance in a later aircraft. Maybe they were so late to the front. I believe that's the case, I just looked at the acceptances and the latest acceptance for a BMW to be re-installed/accepted is September 6th, the earliest Opel BMW acceptance is September 2nd, and the next is September 12th, so they are outside of the "curve" to have been accepted, delivered, flown, crashed, salvaged, sent to Fokker, installed, and accepted for a second time.

There were 3 Mana motors installed into D.VII 2 of which were accepted;

Fok.D.VII 4292/18 July 23 Mana III Nr.12
Fok.D.VII 10347/18 Nov. 29 Mana IIIa Nr.23
Fok.D.VII 10348/18 no acceptance Mana IIIa Nr.53

I don't know if the Mana was a "BMW" copy/license built motor, but think not. As well I believe they didn't carry the "F" designation. As I recall there is one of these aircraft on the floor on its side in the Fokker warehouse in a post-war photo, and the motor cowling is off and you can identify it as a Mana aircraft.