_GOTOBOTTOM
General Aircraft: Tips & Techniques
Discussions on specific A/C building techniques.
How to pose rotor in motion??
Silantra
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Putrajaya, Malaysia
Joined: March 04, 2004
KitMaker: 2,511 posts
AeroScale: 121 posts
Posted: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 - 01:05 PM UTC
hi there..
i have aquestion to ask...
i have a helicopter and plan to do some sort of dynamic diorama and the challage is to pose the rotor just like it's in motion. I have read in FSM that it can be done using a clear plastic and paint the plastic to simulate the motion blades... but i dont sure it will work or is there any other method to do this??

your feedback are welcome...

thanks

spooky6
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Sri Lanka
Joined: May 05, 2005
KitMaker: 2,174 posts
AeroScale: 0 posts
Posted: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 - 01:15 PM UTC
Not sure you should have it look like it's in motion since nothing else in the dio is (eg: water, wheels, etc).
Silantra
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Putrajaya, Malaysia
Joined: March 04, 2004
KitMaker: 2,511 posts
AeroScale: 121 posts
Posted: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 - 01:17 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Not sure you should have it look like it's in motion since nothing else in the dio is (eg: water, wheels, etc).



hey Dave

so it's okay to pose the helicopter airborne with the rotor in static position??

lestweforget
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Victoria, Australia
Joined: November 08, 2002
KitMaker: 2,832 posts
AeroScale: 224 posts
Posted: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 - 01:21 PM UTC
Personally i wouldnt worry about it, reason being, everytime ive seen a helicopter overhead, the rotors appear to be stationary, that is, you can see the individual blades, not just a circular blur. Have alook at some photography or video featuring helicopters, im sure youll see what i mean.
Cheers
Silantra
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Putrajaya, Malaysia
Joined: March 04, 2004
KitMaker: 2,511 posts
AeroScale: 121 posts
Posted: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 - 01:23 PM UTC
if that the case, then i dont have to worry anymore...
thanks the two Davids...
Silantra
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Putrajaya, Malaysia
Joined: March 04, 2004
KitMaker: 2,511 posts
AeroScale: 121 posts
Posted: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 - 02:31 PM UTC
after studying a few photos that i found at Prime Portal, i would like to show this photo




each blade in the main rotor can be seen clearly in stationary position..however the tail rotor are somehow blurry...

and the tip of the main rotor is bend upwards a bit to show it's in landing mode (low speed..) as what i'm trying to depict in my diorama...so is it correct that i have to do something to the tip ??


thanks once again

Merlin
Staff MemberSenior Editor
AEROSCALE
#017
_VISITCOMMUNITY
United Kingdom
Joined: June 11, 2003
KitMaker: 17,582 posts
AeroScale: 12,795 posts
Posted: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 - 02:46 PM UTC
Hi Zaidi

You could always try airbrushing the blades onto a clear disk like Michael Wolfe (Wingman) did for his P-47 diorama:



All the best

Rowan
Grumpyoldman
Staff Member_ADVISOR
KITMAKER NETWORK
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Florida, United States
Joined: October 17, 2003
KitMaker: 15,338 posts
AeroScale: 836 posts
Posted: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 - 07:51 PM UTC
They don't droop in flight. They are either level, or flexing upward. As they spin they gain and lose lift. So are constantly flexing. They also tilt as they spin.

The reason they appear standing still in some photos, and blurred in others is simply due to film speed and shutter speed, and camera angle. Not some miracle of God, nature, or modeling skills.

Ask yourself a few simple questions:

Are your leaves, branches, and debris under the spinning rotors also a blur? They certainly would not be sitting static with 200MPH air pouring down on them. How about the clothing on the figures underneath? Are they also showing the effects of downward blasting hurricane wind?




Silantra
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Putrajaya, Malaysia
Joined: March 04, 2004
KitMaker: 2,511 posts
AeroScale: 121 posts
Posted: Thursday, May 11, 2006 - 07:00 AM UTC

Quoted Text

They don't droop in flight. They are either level, or flexing upward. As they spin they gain and lose lift. So are constantly flexing. They also tilt as they spin.

The reason they appear standing still in some photos, and blurred in others is simply due to film speed and shutter speed, and camera angle. Not some miracle of God, nature, or modeling skills.

Ask yourself a few simple questions:

Are your leaves, branches, and debris under the spinning rotors also a blur? They certainly would not be sitting static with 200MPH air pouring down on them. How about the clothing on the figures underneath? Are they also showing the effects of downward blasting hurricane wind?







Mr. Dave aka G.O.M,
thanks for further explain the situation. Once the idea of having the 'dynamic dio' was placed in my mind, beside the rotating thing, i've been asking my self the same question about the other surrounding factor, FOr example, there would be a lot of flying debris, sand , junk etc..etc, the grass will be push aside by the strong wind force, and the same with the leaves etc..etc..
until at some point, i concluded that this setup is rather imposible to be realised. Then, i decided to place the helicopter in landing position..it just landed, the engine, rotor still operating...and this also will create the above phenomenon..unless the engine is off then the setup would be easy.
The reason i ask for the motion rotor mainly because i think it can be done....but now i'm rather confused...

the original setup would be like this..it's a modern setup happen in Grozny, Chehnya... the opposition ambushed the federal russian army troop and supply. There would be a few supply truck, and maybe an APC...the russian were wounded and call for back up. A Hind 24 which carries spetsnaz team later come to reinforce the wounded comrades. This is where the diorama come in mind...
Another thing is by placing the helo airborne, the size of the dio can be reduced somehow..
anyway, thanks for your input....
blindspot
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Ohio, United States
Joined: September 13, 2003
KitMaker: 52 posts
AeroScale: 12 posts
Posted: Thursday, May 11, 2006 - 07:18 AM UTC
I've neverdone a simulated motion diorama, but I know that of all the dios I've seen, I like the ones with simulated spinning blades and other simulated motion effects. Even when only marginally well done, the effect of motion adds just enough to bring the whole thing up another level. If well done, they can be real showstoppers. If you're comfortable giving it a try, you should go for it.
Grumpyoldman
Staff Member_ADVISOR
KITMAKER NETWORK
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Florida, United States
Joined: October 17, 2003
KitMaker: 15,338 posts
AeroScale: 836 posts
Posted: Thursday, May 11, 2006 - 09:40 AM UTC
Zaidi,
I hope you didn't take my post as not encouraging you not to try it.......because it wasn't meant to be that.

Just remember to pull it off successfully, the entire scene will need to convey the motion, not just the blades.

Remember, just like a great painting, it's fooling the viewers eyes and mind into seeing something that's not there...... motion.
Silantra
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Putrajaya, Malaysia
Joined: March 04, 2004
KitMaker: 2,511 posts
AeroScale: 121 posts
Posted: Thursday, May 11, 2006 - 10:08 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Zaidi,
I hope you didn't take my post as not encouraging you not to try it.......because it wasn't meant to be that.

Just remember to pull it off successfully, the entire scene will need to convey the motion, not just the blades.

Remember, just like a great painting, it's fooling the viewers eyes and mind into seeing something that's not there...... motion.



no Dave..it's ok/..
the diorama should begin when i'm free with other project and i think i can schedule it end of this year... so i still got plenty of time to do research and to think!!! but your feedback and others doesnt put me down....i really appreciate all comments/suggestion/ideas before the actual work begin...

winchweight
_VISITCOMMUNITY
England - West Midlands, United Kingdom
Joined: December 30, 2003
KitMaker: 513 posts
AeroScale: 67 posts
Posted: Friday, May 12, 2006 - 12:58 AM UTC
You must get the rotor coning angle right. As has been said, the weight hangs down, suspended beneath the rotor head and the blades have pitch on them like a wing. This pitch causes the blades to rise and fall at various points around the disc, but the net appearance in a coning upwards of about 10 degrees of pitch about the flapping hinge. Note also the blades themselves have an angle of attck much like a climbing wing, i.e. the leading edge is raised above the horizontal, twisting about the feathering hinge.

Sorry..... helis are kinda my thing..... #:-)
stan2004
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Oregon, United States
Joined: January 01, 2005
KitMaker: 7 posts
AeroScale: 0 posts
Posted: Monday, May 15, 2006 - 11:30 PM UTC
One difficulty with painted clear discs is the thickness of blades in the plane of rotation. That is, it is too thin. There is/was a company that made photo-etched blades called Prop Blur or something like that for a/c but I don't know if the effect scales up to helo size.

While the topic is simulating motion with a static diorama, have you considered moving components? This approach may not be suitable for this forum but ideas on motorizing the main and tail rotors can be found on the aircraft sites. If you're on the ground, the main rotor can spin slowly which overcomes one practical problem with spinning helo blades. A miniature fan disguised in a vehicle can blow or vibrate tall grass. Also, adding sound effects using a miniature MP3 player can trick the viewer with rotor and turbine sounds and sense of action with shouting soldiers, sporadic gun-fire, and such.
Silantra
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Putrajaya, Malaysia
Joined: March 04, 2004
KitMaker: 2,511 posts
AeroScale: 121 posts
Posted: Tuesday, May 16, 2006 - 09:18 AM UTC

Quoted Text

One difficulty with painted clear discs is the thickness of blades in the plane of rotation. That is, it is too thin. There is/was a company that made photo-etched blades called Prop Blur or something like that for a/c but I don't know if the effect scales up to helo size.

While the topic is simulating motion with a static diorama, have you considered moving components? This approach may not be suitable for this forum but ideas on motorizing the main and tail rotors can be found on the aircraft sites. If you're on the ground, the main rotor can spin slowly which overcomes one practical problem with spinning helo blades. A miniature fan disguised in a vehicle can blow or vibrate tall grass. Also, adding sound effects using a miniature MP3 player can trick the viewer with rotor and turbine sounds and sense of action with shouting soldiers, sporadic gun-fire, and such.



Mate,
first, thanks for your ideas. That's really bring one step ahead of our normal (well at least mine) thinking of this hobby. I already google for prop blur and found a review page of which it's meant for 1/48 prop...not the rotor..
anyway, your ideas of having miniature fan,motor, sounds etc..etc really sound interesting to me....but my skill is rather poor when comes to this sort of dynamic diorama...

anyway, thanks for throwing your opinions.....
propboy44256
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Ohio, United States
Joined: November 20, 2002
KitMaker: 1,038 posts
AeroScale: 285 posts
Posted: Tuesday, May 16, 2006 - 09:04 PM UTC
There is a article out there by fine scale modeler, that someone did a diorama of the monogram wright flyer, where they simulated spinning props by cutting circular clear plastic with streaks..I could not locate it tho
Silantra
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Putrajaya, Malaysia
Joined: March 04, 2004
KitMaker: 2,511 posts
AeroScale: 121 posts
Posted: Wednesday, May 17, 2006 - 06:37 AM UTC

Quoted Text

There is a article out there by fine scale modeler, that someone did a diorama of the monogram wright flyer, where they simulated spinning props by cutting circular clear plastic with streaks..I could not locate it tho



yeah..i read that too and i have that FSM issue..but i cant seem to find them....
 _GOTOTOP