Howdy All,
Does anyone know of a source for Neuport 17 paint schemes? With any luck, there might be some more flambouyant examples out there...
I just bought the Hobbycraft Neuport 17 in 1/32nd scale and am still deciding whether to keep it or not. I was deciding between it, and the old 1/48th scale Russian Hokum helo for the Twilight 2K build of '06.......
tia
Tread.
PostScript: I seem to remember {but I losing faith in my synapses} a Neuport 17 sporting an early version of the crooked cross {can't say you-know-what}. This, before it became a blaspheme to even utter the 'word'. Anyway, I also seem to remember the bloody thing wearing floats as well......any help?
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Discuss World War I and the early years of aviation thru 1934.
Discuss World War I and the early years of aviation thru 1934.
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Neuport 17 paint scheme sources?
TreadHead
Joined: January 12, 2002
KitMaker: 5,000 posts
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Posted: Monday, October 02, 2006 - 01:40 AM UTC
alpha_tango
Joined: September 07, 2005
KitMaker: 5,609 posts
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Posted: Monday, October 02, 2006 - 01:50 AM UTC
How about these
(I am sure Stephen has more)
http://www.cbrnp.com/profiles/quarter1/nieuport-gallery.htm
http://wp.scn.ru/en/ww1/f/113
HTH a little
cheers
Steffen
(I am sure Stephen has more)
http://www.cbrnp.com/profiles/quarter1/nieuport-gallery.htm
http://wp.scn.ru/en/ww1/f/113
HTH a little
cheers
Steffen
JackFlash
Joined: January 25, 2004
KitMaker: 11,669 posts
AeroScale: 11,011 posts
Posted: Monday, October 02, 2006 - 02:47 AM UTC
Hello Treahhead:
Here is most of my references on the subject. The Nieuport Aces book is probably the easiest to find. The most colourful might involve camouflaged wings and aluminum doped fuselage. The image you mention sound like a Finnish machine but I have not seen this before. The early term for the cross you mention is Haken kreuz where the basic arms are vertical and horizontal. More later.
Aircraft Designations (French) submitted by P. Grosz, Cross & Cockade USA Vol.25, #2, Pp.112-115, 1984.
French aircraft of the first World War by Davilla & Soltan, Flying Machines Press, 1997.
Markings of the Lafayette Escadrille by B. Alexander, W. Michigan IPMS News 1976.
Nieuport 17 by C.F. Andrews, Profile #49, Profile Pub. 1965.
Nieuport Aces By N. Franks, Osprey, Aircraft of the Aces #33, 2000.
Nieuport Fighters of WWI by J.M.Bruce, Osprey, Vintage Warbirds #10, 1993.
Nieuport Fighters Vol 1 by R. Rimell, Albatros Pub. 1993.
Nieuport Fighters Vol 2 by R. Rimell, Albatros Pub. 1994.
Nieuport Flyers of the Lafayette by Jon Guttman Windsock pub. 2006.
Nieuport Vee Strutters by S. Nelsen, Cross & Cockade USA, Vol.7, #3,Pp.237-253. 1966.
Nieuport Vee Str. Errata & Addenda, Cross & Cockade USA Vol.12,#2, Pp.189-190. 1971.
Pere’ Dorme- The Quiet Stork by D. Reeves, IPMS Journal date unknown.
Here is most of my references on the subject. The Nieuport Aces book is probably the easiest to find. The most colourful might involve camouflaged wings and aluminum doped fuselage. The image you mention sound like a Finnish machine but I have not seen this before. The early term for the cross you mention is Haken kreuz where the basic arms are vertical and horizontal. More later.
Aircraft Designations (French) submitted by P. Grosz, Cross & Cockade USA Vol.25, #2, Pp.112-115, 1984.
French aircraft of the first World War by Davilla & Soltan, Flying Machines Press, 1997.
Markings of the Lafayette Escadrille by B. Alexander, W. Michigan IPMS News 1976.
Nieuport 17 by C.F. Andrews, Profile #49, Profile Pub. 1965.
Nieuport Aces By N. Franks, Osprey, Aircraft of the Aces #33, 2000.
Nieuport Fighters of WWI by J.M.Bruce, Osprey, Vintage Warbirds #10, 1993.
Nieuport Fighters Vol 1 by R. Rimell, Albatros Pub. 1993.
Nieuport Fighters Vol 2 by R. Rimell, Albatros Pub. 1994.
Nieuport Flyers of the Lafayette by Jon Guttman Windsock pub. 2006.
Nieuport Vee Strutters by S. Nelsen, Cross & Cockade USA, Vol.7, #3,Pp.237-253. 1966.
Nieuport Vee Str. Errata & Addenda, Cross & Cockade USA Vol.12,#2, Pp.189-190. 1971.
Pere’ Dorme- The Quiet Stork by D. Reeves, IPMS Journal date unknown.
csch
Joined: December 27, 2002
KitMaker: 1,941 posts
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Posted: Monday, October 02, 2006 - 03:42 AM UTC
TreadHead
Joined: January 12, 2002
KitMaker: 5,000 posts
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Posted: Monday, October 02, 2006 - 07:08 AM UTC
Howdy Fellas,
You guys are terriffic as usual!
to alpha_tango; You were more than a little helpful. In fact, I had to switch over to Netscape to get your second site to work....for some unknown reason IE just wouldn't load the profiles. Thx again.
to JackFlash; A veritable explosion of information....just how I like it!
Now all I need to do is make the same kind of greenbacks as you do so I can afford to purchase all of those fine publications ;-)
As to the "Haken kreuz ", well, I had actually originally planned to refer to it by that exact name, but having done it before and had it censored by Big Brother, I tried for something else....apparently the 'blasphem" filter has been changed.
And finally, you are correct {surprise huh?} about the aircraft in question being Finnish..it was. But, thanks to our good csch and his kindly supplied links, apparently a Russian version of the Neuport also sported the 'Kreuz'.
to csch; All three superb links there pard'......and very much appreciated
Now.......which one?.........hmmmmmmmm
...........
Tread.
You guys are terriffic as usual!
to alpha_tango; You were more than a little helpful. In fact, I had to switch over to Netscape to get your second site to work....for some unknown reason IE just wouldn't load the profiles. Thx again.
to JackFlash; A veritable explosion of information....just how I like it!
Now all I need to do is make the same kind of greenbacks as you do so I can afford to purchase all of those fine publications ;-)As to the "Haken kreuz ", well, I had actually originally planned to refer to it by that exact name, but having done it before and had it censored by Big Brother, I tried for something else....apparently the 'blasphem" filter has been changed.
And finally, you are correct {surprise huh?} about the aircraft in question being Finnish..it was. But, thanks to our good csch and his kindly supplied links, apparently a Russian version of the Neuport also sported the 'Kreuz'.
to csch; All three superb links there pard'......and very much appreciated
Now.......which one?.........hmmmmmmmm
...........Tread.
JackFlash
Joined: January 25, 2004
KitMaker: 11,669 posts
AeroScale: 11,011 posts
Posted: Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 04:39 PM UTC
Familyman
Joined: January 11, 2007
KitMaker: 88 posts
AeroScale: 87 posts
Posted: Friday, January 19, 2007 - 12:37 PM UTC
Gordon!
For really flamboyant ones, that is Russian Imperial and red guards devil, mermaid and other bare naked ladies Nieuport 17s, please check:
http://www.aeroplanebooks.com/productcart/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=46900
And vol 55 of the Czech a/c modeling magazine REVI:
http://www.revi.cz/
The REVI issue might be sold out, tho...
Mikko
For really flamboyant ones, that is Russian Imperial and red guards devil, mermaid and other bare naked ladies Nieuport 17s, please check:
http://www.aeroplanebooks.com/productcart/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=46900
And vol 55 of the Czech a/c modeling magazine REVI:
http://www.revi.cz/
The REVI issue might be sold out, tho...
Mikko
Antoni
Joined: June 03, 2006
KitMaker: 574 posts
AeroScale: 573 posts
Posted: Tuesday, January 23, 2007 - 01:05 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Howdy Fellas,
You guys are terriffic as usual!
to alpha_tango; You were more than a little helpful. In fact, I had to switch over to Netscape to get your second site to work....for some unknown reason IE just wouldn't load the profiles. Thx again.
to JackFlash; A veritable explosion of information....just how I like it!
As to the "Haken kreuz ", well, I had actually originally planned to refer to it by that exact name, but having done it before and had it censored by Big Brother, I tried for something else....apparently the 'blasphem" filter has been changed.
And finally, you are correct {surprise huh?} about the aircraft in question being Finnish..it was. But, thanks to our good csch and his kindly supplied links, apparently a Russian version of the Neuport also sported the 'Kreuz'.
to csch; All three superb links there pard'......and very much appreciated
Now.......which one?.........hmmmmmmmm
Tread.
The aircraft you are thinking of was Russian not Finnish. It was flown by Finnish pilot Kreivi von Rosenin and the blue haken kreuz was his personal emblem. Finland was given to the Russian Empire by Sweden during the Napoleonic Wars and did not beome independant until 1918. His personal emblem was then adopted by the Finnish state. At that time the haken kreuz was a popular symbol with no evil connotation. One was even put on a war memorial in Scotland by request of George V.
In the photograph I have the aircraft does not look like the model. The arms of the haken kreuz rotate in the other direction. There are Russain roundels on the wings - narrow outer red band, thin white band separating it from a narrow blue band, centre white. The fin and rudder are painted in vertical blue white and red stripes. The Kagero book - Nieuport 1-27 by Tomasz J Kowalski has the photogrpah of it as well as a free decal sheet with decals in 1/72 & 1/48 scales for it. Perhaps the model depicts the aircraft later in Finnish service.
Familyman
Joined: January 11, 2007
KitMaker: 88 posts
AeroScale: 87 posts
Posted: Tuesday, January 23, 2007 - 03:32 PM UTC
Quoted Text
The aircraft you are thinking of was Russian not Finnish. It was flown by Finnish pilot Kreivi von Rosenin and the blue haken kreuz was his personal emblem. Finland was given to the Russian Empire by Sweden during the Napoleonic Wars and did not beome independant until 1918. His personal emblem was then adopted by the Finnish state. At that time the haken kreuz was a popular symbol with no evil connotation. One was even put on a war memorial in Scotland by request of George V.
In the photograph I have the aircraft does not look like the model. The arms of the haken kreuz rotate in the other direction. There are Russain roundels on the wings - narrow outer red band, thin white band separating it from a narrow blue band, centre white. The fin and rudder are painted in vertical blue white and red stripes. The Kagero book - Nieuport 1-27 by Tomasz J Kowalski has the photogrpah of it as well as a free decal sheet with decals in 1/72 & 1/48 scales for it. Perhaps the model depicts the aircraft later in Finnish service.
Antoni!
The Kagero book has it all wrong about this Nieuport! "Kreivi von Rosenin" is Finnish and means Count von Rosen's, ie it is a genetive form with the Finnish tittle Kreivi ( count). So, it seems like Mr. Kowalski have had references in Finnish, but he has probably not understood them, since the story about "Kreivi von Rosenin" flying Imperial Russian Nieuport is sheer fantasy IMHO!
The story of the blue you-know-what on white is mostly true. Read more on the recent thread on the Drome:
http://www.theaerodrome.com/forum/showthread.php?t=28991
The Russian Nieuport 17 (or 23) with the forbidden symbol did exist, of course, but it was not flown by either Count von Rosen or Kreivi von Rosenin! I'll check my references. Maybe I'll find something about the plane for you!
Mikko
Antoni
Joined: June 03, 2006
KitMaker: 574 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, January 23, 2007 - 07:57 PM UTC
Your analysis is probably spot on. The book actually calls him Baron Kreivi von Rosen. The irony is that British modelling magazines frequently confuse the Polish genitive and loactive case. Thus it is easy to see exactly which publication has been copied. Also explains why the arms are reversed on the Russian aircraft. Perhaps it is not even blue? Latvia's was red but I don't know when they started using it.
There is nothing sinister in von Rosen's choice of symbol. When Schliemann excavated Troy the symbol was found as decoration on pottery, etc. This led to its popularity in Germany and elsewhere in the late 19th Century just as Egyptian symbols became popular after the discovery of Tutankhamun's tomb. They are found all over the villa that Schliemann built. During WW I it was used by a number of pilots, perhaps as a symbol of good luck. (The one on the Russian aircraft, is think, bad luck.) A Polish pilot was using a white one well into the 1920's. Mr. Hitler has a lot to answer for.
Many thanks for putting me right, I shall not make the same mistake again.
There is nothing sinister in von Rosen's choice of symbol. When Schliemann excavated Troy the symbol was found as decoration on pottery, etc. This led to its popularity in Germany and elsewhere in the late 19th Century just as Egyptian symbols became popular after the discovery of Tutankhamun's tomb. They are found all over the villa that Schliemann built. During WW I it was used by a number of pilots, perhaps as a symbol of good luck. (The one on the Russian aircraft, is think, bad luck.) A Polish pilot was using a white one well into the 1920's. Mr. Hitler has a lot to answer for.
Many thanks for putting me right, I shall not make the same mistake again.
Familyman
Joined: January 11, 2007
KitMaker: 88 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, January 24, 2007 - 07:17 PM UTC
Yeah!
The symbol was indeed very popular among the ww1 aviators. Just about every air service had aviators decorating their planes with it. Raoul Lufbery's Spad and Lafaytte Escadrille in general - take a look at the Indians earrings! - are good examples.
Scroll down this page and you'll see that the symbol was certainly not associated with the ideolgies it is nowadays representing.
http://people.sinclair.edu/thomasmartin/knights/index2.htm
Scrollin further down you'll find, however, some reasons why this symbol is found so repulsive these days.
Mikko
The symbol was indeed very popular among the ww1 aviators. Just about every air service had aviators decorating their planes with it. Raoul Lufbery's Spad and Lafaytte Escadrille in general - take a look at the Indians earrings! - are good examples.
Scroll down this page and you'll see that the symbol was certainly not associated with the ideolgies it is nowadays representing.
http://people.sinclair.edu/thomasmartin/knights/index2.htm
Scrollin further down you'll find, however, some reasons why this symbol is found so repulsive these days.
Mikko
Antoni
Joined: June 03, 2006
KitMaker: 574 posts
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Posted: Friday, January 26, 2007 - 07:24 PM UTC
There was a Sopwith Camel in WW I with a small white one on the fin. Cannot recall the squadron at the moment.
Hindus in the UK have sometimes to explain that the symbol in their temple has ancient origins and was used long before the Nazis arrived on the scene. Another name for it is fylfot, most commonly used in Britain especially in heraldry although its use is rather rare. Modern versions have the tips truncated.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fylfot
During WW II RAF's 273 Squadron were based in the Far East and this connection led to the fylfot being incorporated into the design of the squadron badge. When the design was submitted for official approval it was rejected for the obvious reason. However discussion about the matter was still going on as recently as ten years ago in Parliament.
http://www.parliament.the-stationery-office.co.uk/pa/cm199596/cmhansrd/vo960612/debtext/60612-41.htm
Hindus in the UK have sometimes to explain that the symbol in their temple has ancient origins and was used long before the Nazis arrived on the scene. Another name for it is fylfot, most commonly used in Britain especially in heraldry although its use is rather rare. Modern versions have the tips truncated.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fylfot
During WW II RAF's 273 Squadron were based in the Far East and this connection led to the fylfot being incorporated into the design of the squadron badge. When the design was submitted for official approval it was rejected for the obvious reason. However discussion about the matter was still going on as recently as ten years ago in Parliament.
http://www.parliament.the-stationery-office.co.uk/pa/cm199596/cmhansrd/vo960612/debtext/60612-41.htm
JackFlash
Joined: January 25, 2004
KitMaker: 11,669 posts
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Posted: Friday, January 26, 2007 - 07:31 PM UTC
Quoted Text
"There was a Sopwith Camel in WW I with a small white one on the fin. Cannot recall the squadron at the moment..."
It was an Camel in nightfighting colours...the rudder was halved vertically in red and blue. There was a profile in "Colour Profiles of World War One Combat Planes" by Apostolo and Bignozzi. It is D 6473. Along with the small white Swastika on the fin there is a red 3 part design on the fuselage.
Antoni
Joined: June 03, 2006
KitMaker: 574 posts
AeroScale: 573 posts
Posted: Friday, January 26, 2007 - 11:20 PM UTC
The one I was thinking of belonged to 112 sqn. I tracked it down. Its similar to the one you describe but not quite the same.
http://ipmsstockholm.org/magazine/2000/03/stuff_eng_profile_112sqn1.htm
http://ipmsstockholm.org/magazine/2000/03/stuff_eng_profile_112sqn1.htm
JackFlash
Joined: January 25, 2004
KitMaker: 11,669 posts
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Posted: Saturday, January 27, 2007 - 06:32 AM UTC
To get back to the topic Nieuport 17 markings.
There are several books that have whole sections based on their colour schemes. Some I have already psoted here. I should note that the book I just mentioned regarding the Sopwith profile also has a similar section on the Nieuport 17. "Colour Profiles of World War One Combat Planes" by Apostolo and Bignozzi.
There are several books that have whole sections based on their colour schemes. Some I have already psoted here. I should note that the book I just mentioned regarding the Sopwith profile also has a similar section on the Nieuport 17. "Colour Profiles of World War One Combat Planes" by Apostolo and Bignozzi.
JackFlash
Joined: January 25, 2004
KitMaker: 11,669 posts
AeroScale: 11,011 posts
Posted: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 - 03:26 PM UTC
Here is a bit of fun on the restoration of a Nieuport 23 (very similar to the 17.)
http://users.skynet.be/fa233213/En/RealAircrafts/Nieuport/Nie23.html
http://users.skynet.be/fa233213/En/RealAircrafts/Nieuport/Nie23.html
mbittner
Joined: June 07, 2005
KitMaker: 191 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 - 06:03 PM UTC
Other Nieuport references.
Osprey did a book on the Storks (all of the Escadrilles, and not just N/Spa.3) as well as a book on the Lafayette Escadrille. Plus Windsock released a "markings special" on the LE that adds more fuel to the color fire (three color Nieuports, for example).
There are a couple of books for Russian/Russian Civil War Nieuports. The first, pricey one is Red Stars 3. This covers pre-WW1, WW1 and RCW eras. In addition, there is a Russian publication - all in Russian, of course - called something like "Aircraft of the Russian Civil War". If you have both these books in your collection you have a ton on Russian aviation. Plus the large FMP tome on Russian aviation helps as well, but doesn't have a lot on the RCW.
HTH. Duks-built Nieuports had a linen that was "greyer" than the French stuff, so that could provide a differentiation between your Nieuports.
Good luck!
Osprey did a book on the Storks (all of the Escadrilles, and not just N/Spa.3) as well as a book on the Lafayette Escadrille. Plus Windsock released a "markings special" on the LE that adds more fuel to the color fire (three color Nieuports, for example).
There are a couple of books for Russian/Russian Civil War Nieuports. The first, pricey one is Red Stars 3. This covers pre-WW1, WW1 and RCW eras. In addition, there is a Russian publication - all in Russian, of course - called something like "Aircraft of the Russian Civil War". If you have both these books in your collection you have a ton on Russian aviation. Plus the large FMP tome on Russian aviation helps as well, but doesn't have a lot on the RCW.
HTH. Duks-built Nieuports had a linen that was "greyer" than the French stuff, so that could provide a differentiation between your Nieuports.
Good luck!
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