Hello, I am interested in this forgotten ace of Jasta 11 and would like to paint an Albatros as piloted by him. I have the Squadron Signal Albatros book, Osprey Albatros Aces and Jagdgeschwader I Richthofen ... aside from Allmenröder profile, the only info there's on Schäfer airplane are some brief descriptions here and there, and a photo on page 8 of the last book.
I want to do the model after it was painted Jasta 11 red, but I first need to know what was the previous color scheme and how much of it was retained.
The description is "yellow with a black tail" , the yellow being assumed to be the varnished wooden fuselage, and in the photot can be seen the black covers not only the tail but a good portion of the rear fuselage as well.
But here are the oddities:
1) In the tail fin there's a horizontal stripe of grey, I assume is a damage on the negative or the print or whatever, but it's too regular., could it be a stripe of another color?
2) The fuselage wing root fairings. They seem to be overpainted in a dark color while all the rest of the metal pàrts seem to be in the standard light grey
I toyed with the idea that the fuselage was indeed painted yellow and that's why it looks darker, and the fairings being a smooth reflective surface look darker still... but considering the engine cowling is in grey, that doesn't hold water.... simpler explanation is the right one. Just varnished plywood and the dark color is just the result of shadow and film exposure and printing and what not.
3) The nose. There's a dark narrow band on it, wich I assume is black, just as the wheelcovers but the rest of the nose and the spinner seem to be painted in another color darker than the light gray of cowling and struts.
No idea of what it could be, but given the trend in Jasta 11 of using regimental facing colors as a distinctive col or... I would guess it has something to do with Schäfer regiment before joining the air service. I am no expert in German uniforms and I am too lazy to start going through Osprey books on the German Army but I find Schäfer's small soft cap and dark coat with double rows of buttons quite noteworthy, he almost has a "naval" look furthermore , in his photo in the Aerodrome
http://www.theaerodrome.com/aces/germany/schafer2.php
he has dark collar patches in his tunic, I guess they were black and that's why Schäfer picked that color for his Albatros, I have no idea, but I suppose somebody can figure out what his regiment or arm of service was. Engineers, perhaps?
Oh wait, that doesn't give us any clues as to the spinner color...perhaps if we knew his unit some other color like regimental facings or whatever would be a likely candidate.
Finally, I am assuming that given the descriptions, and the difficulty of overpainting black with red, this same machine conserved this scheme, with the rest of the fuselage , cowling and struts being painted red. I guess wheel covers would be left in black... and the nose... given Voss and Allmenröder examples, I think it was left in its original color.. whatever it was.
Early Aviation
Discuss World War I and the early years of aviation thru 1934.
Discuss World War I and the early years of aviation thru 1934.
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Schäfer's Alb. D.III
Romani
Madrid, Spain / España
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Posted: Thursday, March 01, 2007 - 05:07 AM UTC
Removed by original poster on 03/02/07 - 08:15:36 (GMT).
This post was removed.
JackFlash
Colorado, United States
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Posted: Thursday, March 01, 2007 - 06:20 AM UTC
Greetings Romani; Brian is correct.
First there was a time where the fuselage was just a black tail on a factory standard Albatros D.III (early type with three colour camouflage.)
The sometime during April -May 1917 the Jasta 11 gentlemen began adding the red to forward portions of their fuselages. Schaefer's had the forward portion of the fuselage over painted red. It was this machine or one painted like it that he took to his new command at Jasta 28.
Ltn. Karl Emil Schäfer had 30 total victories.
He came from Armee FlugPark 6 on 21Feb17 .
He left Jasta 11 on 26 April 1917 to go to Jasta 28.
He arrived at Jasta 28 on 27April 1917 and was KIA 5 June 1917.
Note the top left wing tip in this image is repaired. Taken at Jasta 11.
For a closer study on this profile I recommend contacting Aeroscale member Dan San Abbott. I believe he has done studies on all the of the known Jasta 11 machines.
First there was a time where the fuselage was just a black tail on a factory standard Albatros D.III (early type with three colour camouflage.)
The sometime during April -May 1917 the Jasta 11 gentlemen began adding the red to forward portions of their fuselages. Schaefer's had the forward portion of the fuselage over painted red. It was this machine or one painted like it that he took to his new command at Jasta 28.
Ltn. Karl Emil Schäfer had 30 total victories.
He came from Armee FlugPark 6 on 21Feb17 .
He left Jasta 11 on 26 April 1917 to go to Jasta 28.
He arrived at Jasta 28 on 27April 1917 and was KIA 5 June 1917.
Note the top left wing tip in this image is repaired. Taken at Jasta 11.
For a closer study on this profile I recommend contacting Aeroscale member Dan San Abbott. I believe he has done studies on all the of the known Jasta 11 machines.
Dan-San
California, United States
Joined: January 28, 2006
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Posted: Friday, March 02, 2007 - 04:23 AM UTC
Romani:
Ltn.Emil Schäfer when a Jasta 11, his Alb.D.III had the spinner, ring cowl just behind the spinner painted red, and the fuselage, 200 mm aft of the cockpit, from there the fuselage, tailplane, fins and rudder were painted black.
At Jasta 28w as the Jastaführer, the entire forward area was painted red joining at the black. just behind the cockpit.
The wings were in light green, dark green and venetian (rust) red on the top surface and light sky blue on the under surfaces.
Blue skies,
Dan-San
Ltn.Emil Schäfer when a Jasta 11, his Alb.D.III had the spinner, ring cowl just behind the spinner painted red, and the fuselage, 200 mm aft of the cockpit, from there the fuselage, tailplane, fins and rudder were painted black.
At Jasta 28w as the Jastaführer, the entire forward area was painted red joining at the black. just behind the cockpit.
The wings were in light green, dark green and venetian (rust) red on the top surface and light sky blue on the under surfaces.
Blue skies,
Dan-San
Posted: Friday, March 02, 2007 - 02:05 PM UTC
Hi All
Sorry if this is some kind of capture, but I intend to build Schäfer's Albatros D.II (one day) and I wonder how accurate the decals and profile from the Jasta 11 booklet (Kagero) is .. despite being designated D.III?
many thanks!
best wishes
Steffen
Sorry if this is some kind of capture, but I intend to build Schäfer's Albatros D.II (one day) and I wonder how accurate the decals and profile from the Jasta 11 booklet (Kagero) is .. despite being designated D.III?
many thanks!
best wishes
Steffen
JackFlash
Colorado, United States
Joined: January 25, 2004
KitMaker: 11,669 posts
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Posted: Friday, March 02, 2007 - 05:45 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Hi All
Sorry if this is some kind of capture, but I intend to build Schäfers Albatros D.II (one day) and I wonder how accurate the decals and profile from the Jasta 11 booklet (Kagero) is .. despite being designated D.III? Many thanks!
best wishes
Steffen
Greetings Steffen.
I don't have the Kagero book (though I should probably get it.) But the fly in the ointment is the Schäfer (or Schaefer) may have not flown Alb. D.II with Jasta 11.
As mentioned above. He came from Armee Flug Park 6 to Jasta 11 on 21 Feb 1917... The Alb. D.III were already at Jasta 11 (along with a small number of Halberstadt D. types.) Let me check a couple of references and I will get back to you here.
Posted: Friday, March 02, 2007 - 06:30 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Greetings Steffen.
I don't have the Kagero book (though I should probably get it.) But the fly in the ointment is the Schäfer (or Schaefer) may have not flown Alb. D.II with Jasta 11.
As mentioned above. He came from Armee Flug Park 6 to Jasta 11 on 21 Feb 1917... The Alb. D.III were already at Jasta 11 (along with a small number of Halberstadt D. types.) Let me check a couple of references and I will get back to you here.
Hello Stephen
Thank you for your fast response!
I have read a review(Hyperscale) where the author mentioned, that the a/c belonged to KaSta 11. http://misc.kitreview.com/bookreviews/richthofenselevenreviewbg_1.htm
Actually I do not care so much about the unit designation, but the aircraft. Does it belong to Schaefer (or at least was it also flown by him) and are the details correct. It has white circles on the sides and the serial is D.1724/16 on the tail. The fuselage is painted dark brown in the profile (I guess this should refer to dark stained wood. There is also a upper wing camo in green and mauve , but it is not clear to which profile it should belong to..
many thanks for sacrificing your time!
best wishes
Steffen
JackFlash
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Posted: Friday, March 02, 2007 - 07:04 PM UTC
Ahhhhh all is clear !!!!!
Alex Imrie noted that D.1724/16 was Schäfer's bird in Kasta 11 not Jasta 11. Kampfstaffels were escort units for two seater bomber and reconn units. This machine is in Alex Imrie's book German Fighter Units 1916 - May 1917. an early Osprey book from about 1978 originally. I think he even has a plan view layout of the colour profile. Schaefer’s illustrated Albatros D.II is erroneously described as a D.III of Jasta 11 but was actually with Kasta 11, Kampfgeschwader 2.
Here is a bit more on Schäfer's later career from Greg VanWyngarden for those interested.
"...That's part of the legend. Karl-Emil Schaefer started out in Jasta 11 flying a D.III with a black tail and yellowish ply fuselage (just as Wolff had his plum purple D.III in March 1917). However, in mid-April most of the Jasta 11 pilots painted all of their D.IIIs largely red. Schaefer's was apparently red with some black trim on the tail, etc.
When Schaefer took over Jasta 28 he still flew a largely red Albatros D.III, and this became very well known on the 4. Armee front; Max Mueller wrote that Schaefer was "taken for Richthofen here". On 4 June 1917, Jasta 28 tangled with Nieuports from No. 1 Sqn and SE 5a's from No 56 Sqn. Schaefer was apparently on the tail of Capt. Philip Fullard's No 1 Sqn Nieuport when Arthur Rhys Davids chased him off, and was credited with shooting down the red Albatros; Schaefer was indeed killed the following day, and somehow Rhys-Davids thought he had been killed on 4 June. At any rate, Rhys Davids wrote in his combat report: "All five of the HA , especially the leader (red fuselage, red, gray and black wings, V-strut type stuts, pilot wearing a gray fur flying hat) manoeuvred very well." In a letter to his mother he was more expressive: "For about 3/4 hour I played 'tic' with five of them, led by an extremely good pilot in a red, pink and grey machine. I wanted to go up and watch his flying instead of scrapping...Also, he seems to have been a sort of notoriety known as the 'Pink Lady' owing to the colour of his machine and his (presumably) bong qualities as a scrapper.'
There is a good deal of confusion in the descriptions of this fight, and Rhys Davids did not even put in a claim, but he got a confirmed Albatros due to the reports of the pilots of No 1 Sqn. On the next day when news of Schaefer's death circulated among the RFC pilots, somehow Rhys Davids became credited with his demise, at least for awhile.
So, I think the "Pink Lady" (myth) was based largely on sightings of Richthofen's, then Schaefer's RED Albatros. As has been commented on here, various angles of sunlight can do strange things to perception. The pilot who Johnnie Johnson was referring to was no doubt Schaefer."
Alex Imrie noted that D.1724/16 was Schäfer's bird in Kasta 11 not Jasta 11. Kampfstaffels were escort units for two seater bomber and reconn units. This machine is in Alex Imrie's book German Fighter Units 1916 - May 1917. an early Osprey book from about 1978 originally. I think he even has a plan view layout of the colour profile. Schaefer’s illustrated Albatros D.II is erroneously described as a D.III of Jasta 11 but was actually with Kasta 11, Kampfgeschwader 2.
Here is a bit more on Schäfer's later career from Greg VanWyngarden for those interested.
"...That's part of the legend. Karl-Emil Schaefer started out in Jasta 11 flying a D.III with a black tail and yellowish ply fuselage (just as Wolff had his plum purple D.III in March 1917). However, in mid-April most of the Jasta 11 pilots painted all of their D.IIIs largely red. Schaefer's was apparently red with some black trim on the tail, etc.
When Schaefer took over Jasta 28 he still flew a largely red Albatros D.III, and this became very well known on the 4. Armee front; Max Mueller wrote that Schaefer was "taken for Richthofen here". On 4 June 1917, Jasta 28 tangled with Nieuports from No. 1 Sqn and SE 5a's from No 56 Sqn. Schaefer was apparently on the tail of Capt. Philip Fullard's No 1 Sqn Nieuport when Arthur Rhys Davids chased him off, and was credited with shooting down the red Albatros; Schaefer was indeed killed the following day, and somehow Rhys-Davids thought he had been killed on 4 June. At any rate, Rhys Davids wrote in his combat report: "All five of the HA , especially the leader (red fuselage, red, gray and black wings, V-strut type stuts, pilot wearing a gray fur flying hat) manoeuvred very well." In a letter to his mother he was more expressive: "For about 3/4 hour I played 'tic' with five of them, led by an extremely good pilot in a red, pink and grey machine. I wanted to go up and watch his flying instead of scrapping...Also, he seems to have been a sort of notoriety known as the 'Pink Lady' owing to the colour of his machine and his (presumably) bong qualities as a scrapper.'
There is a good deal of confusion in the descriptions of this fight, and Rhys Davids did not even put in a claim, but he got a confirmed Albatros due to the reports of the pilots of No 1 Sqn. On the next day when news of Schaefer's death circulated among the RFC pilots, somehow Rhys Davids became credited with his demise, at least for awhile.
So, I think the "Pink Lady" (myth) was based largely on sightings of Richthofen's, then Schaefer's RED Albatros. As has been commented on here, various angles of sunlight can do strange things to perception. The pilot who Johnnie Johnson was referring to was no doubt Schaefer."
Posted: Friday, March 02, 2007 - 08:40 PM UTC
Thank You Stephen!!!
seems I have to look for that osprey .... one question though, because I am not sure I understand you right: There is a photo in there? Correct?
best wishes
Steffen
seems I have to look for that osprey .... one question though, because I am not sure I understand you right: There is a photo in there? Correct?
best wishes
Steffen
JackFlash
Colorado, United States
Joined: January 25, 2004
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Posted: Saturday, March 03, 2007 - 03:17 AM UTC
I have seen a photo of this machine ...but...I think it was in a Cross & Cockade Intl. or and Over the Front Journal. The plan view in Mr. Imrie's book is a drawing pen and ink type. Top and side view.
JackFlash
Colorado, United States
Joined: January 25, 2004
KitMaker: 11,669 posts
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Posted: Monday, March 05, 2007 - 08:55 AM UTC
Greetings Romani!
Just a bit of help. please read my advice That I have given to JRatz and Kitboy on the three colour upper surface camouflage.
Just a bit of help. please read my advice That I have given to JRatz and Kitboy on the three colour upper surface camouflage.
JackFlash
Colorado, United States
Joined: January 25, 2004
KitMaker: 11,669 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 - 12:46 AM UTC
Here is a bit of fun Jasta 11 line up at Douai Feb - April 1917.
look at the #3 aircraft top wing looks like Shäfer's Alb. D.III.
look at the #3 aircraft top wing looks like Shäfer's Alb. D.III.
Romani
Madrid, Spain / España
Joined: December 19, 2006
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Posted: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 - 06:48 PM UTC
Well, thank you very much for your replies, both here, and to Dan San Abbot for his replies back at the Aerodrome forum. I am relieved and very happy to find out there was a photo of Schäfer's DIII in red and black livery and it makes for a very attractive build. Allmenröder's DIII is much better documented but I have already a red and white Jasta 18 bird and plan on to do more, so I wanted a change.
I was also surprised at seeing there's a profile on Festner machine, I missed that one, it too makes a very attractive build, but I will stick with Schäfer's ... I have another early DIII that needs repainting so though it's already in green and mauve maybe I will do another Jasta 11 bird.
After going through all the posts, I give up on what was his DIII originally like, it doesn't really concern me since plywood Albatros are a dime a dozen, andI only asked believing it was the only existing photo, I was very happy when photos of his red and black DIII surfaced.
The only doubt I have remaining is wether his latter Albatros at Jasta 28w was also red/black or red nose / unpainted plywood/ black fuselage and tail
The combat report is fascinating, I just chose Schäfer because of all of Richthofen 1917 comrades he was the lesser known. It's not that they scored an impressive amount of victories during Bloody April because they were flying a good airplane against obsolete British machines , but because they were a hand picked select group trained by a master. Damn, he was good.
Also the report throws light (no pun intended) on how light plays tricks on color perfection... or maybe Rhys David was color blind!
ll five of the HA , especially the leader (red fuselage, red, gray and black wings
Interesting how colors darken and gray with distance
On the wings
Red = the rust red brown
gray= light green
black= dark green
The confusion with seeing red as pink has been reported often in relation with Jasta 11 airplanes.
I was also surprised at seeing there's a profile on Festner machine, I missed that one, it too makes a very attractive build, but I will stick with Schäfer's ... I have another early DIII that needs repainting so though it's already in green and mauve maybe I will do another Jasta 11 bird.
After going through all the posts, I give up on what was his DIII originally like, it doesn't really concern me since plywood Albatros are a dime a dozen, andI only asked believing it was the only existing photo, I was very happy when photos of his red and black DIII surfaced.
The only doubt I have remaining is wether his latter Albatros at Jasta 28w was also red/black or red nose / unpainted plywood/ black fuselage and tail
The combat report is fascinating, I just chose Schäfer because of all of Richthofen 1917 comrades he was the lesser known. It's not that they scored an impressive amount of victories during Bloody April because they were flying a good airplane against obsolete British machines , but because they were a hand picked select group trained by a master. Damn, he was good.
Also the report throws light (no pun intended) on how light plays tricks on color perfection... or maybe Rhys David was color blind!
ll five of the HA , especially the leader (red fuselage, red, gray and black wings
Interesting how colors darken and gray with distance
On the wings
Red = the rust red brown
gray= light green
black= dark green
The confusion with seeing red as pink has been reported often in relation with Jasta 11 airplanes.