"...Remember that WW1 airplanes were shiny, not dull, due to the spray of oil from their engines over the surface which means that the longer they served the shinier they got..."
Don't you believe it folks. Lets spend a few minutes on the topic of WWI aircraft finish. Now I am not speaking about the post WWI or pre WWII aircraft.
The main function of camouflage paint was to cut down the shine on machines so they did not reflect light and give your opponent an indication about where you were at. Rotary engines did spew oily exhaust but in the ideal circumstance this was to be wiped or sanded off painted or varnished surfaces after the patrol. It was part of the maintenance schedule for all aircraft of all combatants. Inline motors did not spew oily exhaust except when damaged.
The secondary function of camouflage was to resemble the local landscape when viewed from above. The British found that the PC10 or PC12 had some changes that took place in its overall appearance during the service life of the machine it was applied to.
When a rotary engine did spew out its exhaust it tended to cover the wing roots (upper and lower surfaces) and the underside of the fuselage and tail unit.
Original WWI aircraft from the factory had a semi gloss to the varnish and some paints on interior parts (UsuallY black and gray.) This is termed "Japanned" by some. Any exterior varnish was dulled the longer a machine stayed at the front.
Modern day replica WWI aircraft are shiny as many of them are doped, varnished and then painted with oil based gloss.
Early Aviation
Discuss World War I and the early years of aviation thru 1934.
Discuss World War I and the early years of aviation thru 1934.
Hosted by Jim Starkweather
A word concerning finish
JackFlash
Joined: January 25, 2004
KitMaker: 11,669 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, March 14, 2007 - 05:44 AM UTC
JackFlash
Joined: January 25, 2004
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Posted: Wednesday, March 14, 2007 - 05:58 AM UTC
Sky camouflage:
At first the experimentations were limited to various light blues. The British never saw any reason to go with this. Many German manufacturers did. Then there was the aluminum powdered version of aircraft dope. This was the attempt to adopt a camouflage that would have sky properties to some degree even though new machines tended to have some shine. The longer one of these machine was at the front the duller it became.
At first the experimentations were limited to various light blues. The British never saw any reason to go with this. Many German manufacturers did. Then there was the aluminum powdered version of aircraft dope. This was the attempt to adopt a camouflage that would have sky properties to some degree even though new machines tended to have some shine. The longer one of these machine was at the front the duller it became.
Dan-San
Joined: January 28, 2006
KitMaker: 29 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, March 14, 2007 - 06:53 AM UTC
Ladies and Gentlemen;
JackFlash is correct on this, gloss finishes would have reflected in sunlight. The RFC PC.10 brown with a coat of matt varnish or the French five color camouflage was matt were designed to reduce the reflection of sunlight.The German painted Sky or Terrain camouflage as well as the printed fabrics were topped with a coat of matt varnish. The primary purpose of the varnish was to waterproof the fabric surface against the invasion of water.
Blue skies,
Dan-San
JackFlash is correct on this, gloss finishes would have reflected in sunlight. The RFC PC.10 brown with a coat of matt varnish or the French five color camouflage was matt were designed to reduce the reflection of sunlight.The German painted Sky or Terrain camouflage as well as the printed fabrics were topped with a coat of matt varnish. The primary purpose of the varnish was to waterproof the fabric surface against the invasion of water.
Blue skies,
Dan-San
Kitboy
Joined: July 20, 2006
KitMaker: 258 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, March 14, 2007 - 06:02 PM UTC
Very interesting stuff to read!!
Greetings, Nico
Greetings, Nico
Dwaynewilly
Joined: December 15, 2006
KitMaker: 365 posts
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Posted: Thursday, March 15, 2007 - 03:19 AM UTC
Gentleman,
Let me know if I have this right. New aircraft could have a semi-gloss finish as well as freshly repaired sections and that older aircraft will have more of a matt finish. What about clear varnished plywood surfaces found on aircraft like the Albatros fighters?
Dwayne
Let me know if I have this right. New aircraft could have a semi-gloss finish as well as freshly repaired sections and that older aircraft will have more of a matt finish. What about clear varnished plywood surfaces found on aircraft like the Albatros fighters?
Dwayne
JackFlash
Joined: January 25, 2004
KitMaker: 11,669 posts
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Posted: Thursday, March 15, 2007 - 05:26 AM UTC
Quoted Text
"Gentleman,
Let me know if I have this right. New aircraft could have a semi-gloss finish as well as freshly repaired sections and that older aircraft will have more of a matt finish..."
Yes, to various extents. They did use what was in their stores and often that cannot be calculated. As Dan has pointed out matt varnish was often used on fabrics and wood surfaces. Metal surfaces were usually painted or machined (hammered surface) to avoid corrosion.
Quoted Text
"...What about clear varnished plywood surfaces found on aircraft like the Albatros fighters? Dwayne
Again, from the factory matt varnish, shellac and in a few OAW cases like the early Alb. D.III OAW, painted mauve & green on the fuselage. Also some machines were overpainted, repaired in the field.
For clarification "High gloss" is not a standard. Often times later in the war there were examples that were over-varnished but this did not produce gloss. The result would be that if you apply successive coats of dullcote or dead flat the camouflage patterns tend to be come less distinct like an overspray. Author Greg VanWyngarden has noted this effect on fabric surfaces specifically.
Most modelers like to avoid simulating the shellaced applications as this tends to make small scale versions look more toy-like.
Romani
Joined: December 19, 2006
KitMaker: 14 posts
AeroScale: 13 posts
Posted: Thursday, March 15, 2007 - 11:52 PM UTC
All is well and good.. but I keep bumping across photos of at least German aircraft where the finish in the fabric so glossy it reflects light. Any smooth enough surface is going to reflect light. I will take the advice and use less varnish, and in particular in british aircraft is neccesary to show the different shades of different surfaces painted in the same color, ie, plywoor or metal vs fabric.
JackFlash
Joined: January 25, 2004
KitMaker: 11,669 posts
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Posted: Friday, March 16, 2007 - 02:18 AM UTC
Here is a new AEF Sop. F.1
Here is one that has had time to be assigned to an operational unit.
Here is one that has been in service for several weeks.
Here is one that has had time to be assigned to an operational unit.
Here is one that has been in service for several weeks.
JackFlash
Joined: January 25, 2004
KitMaker: 11,669 posts
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Posted: Saturday, March 17, 2007 - 04:00 PM UTC
Here is another interesting colour note. If you see a comment that an aircraft is CDL (clear doped linen) check the wings. If you can see the substructure shadows it is CDL. If you can't see the substructure shadows and the wings are plain they are painted. It may be a light cream or buff colour or even lt. blue. Several were even painted a lt. green.
Most aircraft were done in unbleach linen (though not all, remember the Pfalz E. and early Aviatik B & C types?) Then later in 1917 & 1918 the Germans started using printed lozenge and the Austrians began using sworl patterns printed on fabric.
Paint or colour application varied from airgun applications at the factory levels to brush and even soaked rags being swirled on fabric surfaces in the field units.
Most aircraft were done in unbleach linen (though not all, remember the Pfalz E. and early Aviatik B & C types?) Then later in 1917 & 1918 the Germans started using printed lozenge and the Austrians began using sworl patterns printed on fabric.
Paint or colour application varied from airgun applications at the factory levels to brush and even soaked rags being swirled on fabric surfaces in the field units.
JackFlash
Joined: January 25, 2004
KitMaker: 11,669 posts
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Posted: Monday, April 16, 2007 - 02:55 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Gentleman,
Let me know if I have this right. New aircraft could have a semi-gloss finish as well as freshly repaired sections and that older aircraft will have more of a matt finish. What about clear varnished plywood surfaces found on aircraft like the Albatros fighters? Dwayne
Aeroscale member Brad Cancian has recently been working on a 1/72 scale Albatros D.Va. His scheme is based on the following. Note the hight gloss fuselage.
Note the subdued gloss. But the way the "new" condition is portrayed is with the overall clean look of the build. High gloss on a small scale kit tends to push the viewer away from studying details. The wash he has employed is very minimal but does the trick in shadowing bevels and ridges.
JackFlash
Joined: January 25, 2004
KitMaker: 11,669 posts
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Posted: Thursday, June 14, 2007 - 07:38 AM UTC
Just a refresher folks. Note the overall finish of he Austrian (Oeffag) Albatros D.III replica posted here at the early aviation title.
Familyman
Joined: January 11, 2007
KitMaker: 88 posts
AeroScale: 87 posts
Posted: Friday, June 15, 2007 - 08:23 PM UTC
Stephen!
Your Camel photo series is interesting indeed.. I have to say, however, that IMHO the third one with very worn out, almost matt surface, is an exceptional specimen. New and shiny, or moderately worn out, sort of satin finishes are much more common in the period Camel photos.
The American Camel of your triplet shows also, that PC 10/ 12 finishes were quite glossy while fresh. There is also so many period photos of French and German camoflaged planes, that are new and shiny, that I find it hard to believe, that any camo finish was originally matt. Maybe less shiny than a CDL finish, but not completely dull. In some cases the German sky camo does look to be nearly matt, but on the wings there is usually at least some satin sort of shine.
So, I still think, that completely matt finish on a ww1 a/c model looks inaccurate. Then again, gloss varnish might look toyish on a scale model, so I will keep on using satin finishes on my models.
Mikko
Your Camel photo series is interesting indeed.. I have to say, however, that IMHO the third one with very worn out, almost matt surface, is an exceptional specimen. New and shiny, or moderately worn out, sort of satin finishes are much more common in the period Camel photos.
The American Camel of your triplet shows also, that PC 10/ 12 finishes were quite glossy while fresh. There is also so many period photos of French and German camoflaged planes, that are new and shiny, that I find it hard to believe, that any camo finish was originally matt. Maybe less shiny than a CDL finish, but not completely dull. In some cases the German sky camo does look to be nearly matt, but on the wings there is usually at least some satin sort of shine.
So, I still think, that completely matt finish on a ww1 a/c model looks inaccurate. Then again, gloss varnish might look toyish on a scale model, so I will keep on using satin finishes on my models.
Mikko
flypaper
Joined: May 21, 2007
KitMaker: 51 posts
AeroScale: 49 posts
KitMaker: 51 posts
AeroScale: 49 posts
Posted: Saturday, June 16, 2007 - 05:17 AM UTC
Wasn't the French 5 color with the aluminum powder designed to "reflect" the sun light thus cutting down on the damage caused by the sun? If this is true I would think there would have to be some kind of "shine" to the surface. Also the paints applied to metal parts in the 5 color scheme were of a different type and from photos Ive seen had a strong gloss finish to them, granted they may have dulled out in time, but not the fabric because of its formulation. It also seems to me from what photos Ive seen over the last 40 years Allied a/c seemed to have a reflective sheen more so then the Germans.
Of course these are just my observations, and when I build I will check as many photo's as I can and work from them.
Of course these are just my observations, and when I build I will check as many photo's as I can and work from them.
JackFlash
Joined: January 25, 2004
KitMaker: 11,669 posts
AeroScale: 11,011 posts
Posted: Saturday, June 16, 2007 - 04:10 PM UTC
Quoted Text
"Stephen!. . . So, I still think, that completely matt finish on a ww1 a/c model looks inaccurate. Then again, gloss varnish might look toyish on a scale model, so I will keep on using satin finishes on my models.
Mikko"
Mikko Thanks for your contribution and observations. When we talk about smaller scaled down models we can also discuss "scaled lighting" and its effects on those surfaces. The same sun spot glare on a fullsized aircraft would swallow a small scaled down model. I have found using several successive coats of a clear "dull" lacquer achieve a sheen that I may need for a build. One of the terms you will find in Greg VanWyngarden's modern writings is "over-varnished surfaces" Usually in reference to airframes repaiered in the field.
Furthermore, the British were very frugal and they made an airframe to have "built in longevity." The amount of craftsmanship that went into a Sopwith Camel or an SE 5a were tremendous. In terms of average appearance is seems there were at least three condirions factory - in service starting - end of service. Because they lasted so long. B6313 flown by Major Barker wore several paint jobs in its year and a half of service (approximate). When modeling we always try to use images to confirm markings placements but as you have pointed out it tends to tell us also the age of a machine when photographed.
JackFlash
Joined: January 25, 2004
KitMaker: 11,669 posts
AeroScale: 11,011 posts
Posted: Saturday, June 16, 2007 - 04:27 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Wasn't the French 5 color with the aluminum powder designed to "reflect" the sun light thus cutting down on the damage caused by the sun? If this is true I would think there would have to be some kind of "shine" to the surface. Also the paints applied to metal parts in the 5 color scheme were of a different type and from photos Ive seen had a strong gloss finish to them, granted they may have dulled out in time, but not the fabric because of its formulation. It also seems to me from what photos Ive seen over the last 40 years Allied a/c seemed to have a reflective sheen more so then the Germans.
Of course these are just my observations, and when I build I will check as many photo's as I can and work from them.
Greetings flypaper;
In reference to the French 5 colour scheme that SPAD (and others) used on its machines. From late 1917 - all of 1918, aluminum powder was included in the pigment for the fabric dope. While there is some speculation on why it was used we can assume it was for several reasons. The first in my mind is the muting of colours. At long distance you view mountains and they look blue or grey even pink. This is due to atmospheric conditions. The colours all blend to give you an overall impression. The aluminum tended to mute and blend the camouflage colours in an overall effect. I have noted that the colours are directly effected by weather and / or sunlight conditions. One machine I am thinking about, was photographed on a sunbright day in the snow and you could pick out each individual colour application with great clarity.
flypaper
Joined: May 21, 2007
KitMaker: 51 posts
AeroScale: 49 posts
KitMaker: 51 posts
AeroScale: 49 posts
Posted: Sunday, June 17, 2007 - 05:07 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextWasn't the French 5 color with the aluminum powder designed to "reflect" the sun light thus cutting down on the damage caused by the sun? If this is true I would think there would have to be some kind of "shine" to the surface. Also the paints applied to metal parts in the 5 color scheme were of a different type and from photos Ive seen had a strong gloss finish to them, granted they may have dulled out in time, but not the fabric because of its formulation. It also seems to me from what photos Ive seen over the last 40 years Allied a/c seemed to have a reflective sheen more so then the Germans.
Of course these are just my observations, and when I build I will check as many photo's as I can and work from them.
Greetings flypaper;
In reference to the French 5 colour scheme that SPAD (and others) used on its machines. From late 1917 - all of 1918, aluminum powder was included in the pigment for the fabric dope. While there is some speculation on why it was used we can assume it was for several reasons. The first in my mind is the muting of colurs. At long distance you view mountains and they look blue or grey even pink. This is due to atmospheric conditions. The colours all blend to give you an overall impression. The aluminum tended to mute and blend the camouflage colours in an overall effect. I have noted that the colours are directly effected by weather and / or sunlight conditions. One machine I am thinking about, was photographed on a sunbright day in the snow and you could pick out each individual colour application with great clarity.
I'd like to expand on the French thinking and put forth my reasoning behind the use of the aluminum powder in the French camo scheme's. Both the French and the British were both worried about the destructive effects of the Sun on the fabric on there aircraft, both countries approached the problem and came to separate conclusions the French found that by adding a percentage of aluminum powder to the paint it cut down on the Sun's damage by reflection hence the well known Nieuport silver finish. This was hardly a camo scheme but the protection it gave to the a/c clearly outweighed everything else. When the 5 color scheme was put into use the aluminum powder went into the paints again to shed the suns damaging rays, thats why the paints used on the metal panels did not include the aluminum, it wasn't needed.
The British on the other hand found out after many paint test's that PC10 and later PC12 gave the fabric protection from the same damaging rays, and also acted as a camo scheme that could be used in the fields of France. There was an excellent series in some older Windsock magazine
by Harry Woodward covered the the development of both the PC10 and PC12 paints right down to the ingredients, along with others Nivo and roundel colors, well worth looking up.
Thanks for the soap box and
Cheers.......Flypaper
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