Hello All.

Just a few photos (taken by my friend Vic) of my recently completed 1/32 scale Nieuport 23 in Belgian markings.

The hobbycraft kit but a large amount of scratch building and detailing has been employed, particulary in the cockpit where wooden veneer has been used to line/detail the floor and sides as well as replace the plastic seat, all oil and fuel tanks have also been included, various other kit parts have been altered or replaced.

The propellor is hand carved from a block made from 9 laminations of wood veneer.

Apart from the "N" and serial numbers on the rudder all other markings were sprayed.

I hope you like it, next will be a SPAD XIII

PeteV

Sweet
That one turned up real nice.Good job and good pics.
cheers
Lars

Peter (Kaporaal) Nicely done! Do you have any inprogress shots of the interior? Sounds like great work.

Hello Peter,

Really nice model of one of my beloved airplane. I like especially your rendering of the upper cockades.

But, as I said to Stephen, on the Drome, the comet seems to me to be suspect. As far as I know, the comet is entirely red (not red & yellow). Another point is this aircraft have not a black line at the junction of the upper fuselage and turtledeck. It's just the belgian kaki paint (very similar to PC10) that wrp slightly on the upper fuselage as you can see it here : http://www.baha.be/Webpages/Navigator/Photos/MilltaryPics/ww1_precurseurs/nieuport17_23.htm

Best regards from my little Belgium.

Edmond Thieffry

Hello Edmond! Very glad to see you here! This fellow knows Belgian topics to the nnnnth degree.

I fully agree with Edmond Thieffry for the comments about the comet and the "dark" line on the fuselage.

Anyway, this is a really superb build. Congratulations!!!

Greetings from Belgium
Daniel

Daniel very glad to see you here as well! Both Edmond and Daniel are large in their country's IPMS group.

i agree the comment from my two friends Philippe and daniel,a really great build and a stunning model, but no black line on the fuselage side and the yellow on the comet is very suspect and please no more "black tire",regards Frederic aka osterkamp

Ladies and gentlemen...The three horseman of Belgium have arrived. Good to see you too Frederic! I have followed with great interest their works and model contest support . I am very glad to see them here.

Hi all,

I took the photos of the model for Pete and I must say it is an excellent job, as Pete's work always is. Pete is Belgian by the way and models quite a number of Belgian aircraft.

It is most unlike Pete to get something wrong as he always spends a lot of time and money researching the subject that he's working on.
I checked with him where he got his info.

He used Nieuport Fighters by J M Bruce volume one and Nieuport aces of World War 1 by Norman Franks.

Below are some of the picture he worked from.

The first one is Pete's model showing the comet and black stripe.
The second is the plane the model is based on. If you look at the comet there is a distinct variation of colour in the comets tail but you can also see that it has not been finished yet, there is also a distinct black line which ends approx 6 inches back from the cockpit.
In this picture the plane is still being painted, the turtledeck hasn't been painted yet so the line isn't wrap around of the Khaki.

I realise, as you do, that black and white photos are always open to different interpritation.

The remaining photos including one of Edmond Thieffry by his plane all show a definite black line as per Pete's model.



All the best

Vic

Talking of horseman, Pete's father was in the Belgian 2nd Lancers, joined 1933, fought in and survived WW2 and died last year at the wripe old age of 91.

All the best

Vic

Vic most impressive presentation. My thanks!

Very nice build! yesterday I was at Brussel's Military Museum and watched a lot of Belgium's aircraft history. Lovely big collection of WW1 aircraft. And... free admission (that always makes a Dutchman happy;))

At this moment the motorpanels of the Hanover CLIV were removed, a lot of things to be seen now in the engine compartment. Also had a good view the way the (still original) lozenge was applied (diagonal).

Greetings, Nico

Hello Vic

I've said that I liked the work of your friend Pete and it's really a great work.

If I've said that it's minor errors of its interpretation of this aircrfat, that is because I made the same misinterpretations in the past. If you look closely the queue of the comet, that is no tonal difference between the colour of the fuselage and these of the unpainted area of the Comet and many of our Belgian specialists (as D. Brackx, Y. Duelz and many others) will tell you that this Comet was probably painted red on the silver dope background. Another reasons are that this comet is know on all other aircrafts of this squadron to be red and was defined in reglementation as a red comet.

For the "black" line, many of us made the same misinterpretation. But when the restauration team of the Brussels's Royal Army Museum stripped down the Nieuport 23, we have the surprise to discover (under the blackline repainted during its first restauration in the sixties) that this line was originally of the same colour used on the turtledeck. When I visited the museum in November 2004 with our friends Tom Morgan, Lance Krieg and Karen Richzlewsky , David Piron (the restauration team master) confirmed us this fact.

Now, it's always possible that a black line was painted on certain aircrafts. If I can't tell "yes" for the aircrafts of Thieffry and Coppens, It's seems that it was effectively the case for the aircrafts of Franchomme and Braun.

Even if Stephen called us the Belgian horseman, it's not really the case for me. I'm just a former reserve officer of our well know "Chasseurs ardennais".

Best regards from my little country.

Philippe (aka Edmond)

Hello Philippe,

You are probably correct about the comet. As I said, in the picture it has not been finished. This may be just a first coat and the light area was filled in red when finished.

Also as I said, interpeting old black and white photos especially when they are taken in strong light is always hard.

The black stripe is definately on some aircraft as you say and the pictures show it even if they wern't on the aircraft that were restored.

Like I've said before, constructive criticism is always welcome which includes the coments made by you about the comet and line but what basically annoyed me is that it ended up with 3 or 4 people all going on about the same minor points. What for? what's the point? once is enough. You don't need everyone coming on saying the same thing to back one another up.
Why not discuss some of the good points!!!
I was pretty demoralised by the feedback and it wasn't even my work!!

I don't mean we all should blow sunshine up everyones [auto-censored] by saying WOW that's good or WOW that's nice, just a more positive "discussion" would be good.

[ please no more "black tire"

The tyres are in fact painted gray.

Even if Stephen called us the Belgian horseman, it's not really the case for me. I'm just a former reserve officer of our well know "Chasseurs ardennais".


No, don't say just a reserve officer
The Chasseurs ardennais are a well known and respected company outside of belgium too. I salute you (closest icon I could find to a salute

All the best

Vic

Vic brings up a point that we should be more positive. I can always agree on this. It is key (most important) that we don't take ourselves too seriously here but when you post images it is a given that there may be feedback. There is never any guarantee that it will be positive. As long as we "auto censore" ourselves and keep to the subject matter we will be fine.

Personally I have the references that were brought up and could have posted them myself but it was worked through nicely. It your forum so don't feel like you can't be heard. The build is excellent and nicely done. Never hold back on admiration but chew it twice before doing much else.

Good points were presented pro and con. Vic did a great job in the photo images and countering for his friend. One further point we never really know who we are talking to here. The old bones should think about the younger modelers and encouragement should be the name of the game. Biplanes are not the easiest model on the shelf. At any rate Peter Vill and everyone, Model On!!!

Hello Vic,

Like Edmond I've said that the kit is splendid. Be confident that the "three Belgian horseman" (personnaly during my military duty some years ago -ahem- I was gunner on CVRT Scorpion and Scimitar ; 2nd bataillon of Carabiniers Cyclistes) will always give their comments in a POSITIVE and CONSTRUCTIVE way. More than that, we are conscient that we don't have ALL the answers nor ALL the knowledge (and me less than my two friends!!!). All that we hope is that our comments can be helpful for PeteV or any modeller that want to build a black/yellow/red a/c. The fact that I am now a WWI modeller is due to the good way Edmond and Greif critiscized my first builds in the domain: they never made me discoraged, but gived me the envy to work better at each time.

For the black line, you care compare those two pictures of the restored a/c of the Brussels Air Museum:
http://philippesmodels.be/En/RealAircrafts/Nieuport_disp/Nie23disp22.html
http://philippesmodels.be/En/RealAircrafts/Nieuport_disp/Nie23disp13.html

Of course, I don't discuss the presence of a dark, probably black line on Braun's aircraft... It seems evident.
By the way Stephen, remember my Fokker E V and the fact that it was evident for many years that that a/c was not bearing Belgian cockades... A fact that a photo recently found in the collection of Guy Destrebecq proved to be false.

Fred's comments about "black tires" are of course correct. Not so evident on the (often excellent) photos to see that the tires are dark grey. Fred, Edmond and me we have seen recently some splendid builds in expos where the tires were black...

I agree with you, Stephen that the "old bones "are there to help the young modellers. If the old bones have to give positive and constructive criticisms, young modellers have to understand that those criticisms are given to help them and not to discorage them...

Vic, have I said that your photos are splendid? OK, it's done now.

Let all the sun shining

Hi Daniel,

If your sat behind the gun of a Scorpion or Scimitar then your coments will be taken in a POSITIVE and CONSTRUCTIVE way
Also my photos wer'e the easy bit, the camera does the work


Thanks for the links to the photos. I made one black and white and as we've all said you can see how they can be misinterpreted in some instances.






All the best

Vic

Not behind, Vic, but on the right side. Behind the gun would have been too dangerous for my body, especially with the Scorpion...

Hello Vic

Firstly, A BIG thank for your kind words about our Chasseurs ardennais. Even if I've the chance to keep in pace and to not know the real combat, we keep the same spirit as our glorious elders.

Stephen know me (virtually) since a long time and he will say you that I made always attempt to keep positive and constructive advises. Don't be worry about the criticisms of my mates Fred and Daniel. They have the same spirit as mine and our goal was just to help another members of our little community to built beter models. As an old bone in modelling (I built models since more than 40 years and study the WWI since 15years), I think that I've the duty to share my knowledge and my experience with younger modellers.

Pete, don't discourage you. As I said, your work is really excellent and the errors are minor. Not only the wings (as I said in another post), but the general appearence is really fine and the engine is a beauty. If you hesitate on a sheme for a future Belgian project, ask. We should be here to help you (and other members, naturally).

Best regards from Belgium.

Edmond

Ahh, yes Daniel, good point. I didn't think about that before I made my comment. The biggest thing I've fired is a shotgun.

All the best

Vic

Hi Philippe,

Don't worry, I have no doubts about your sincerity or that of Daniels or Freds and I applaud your attitudes to modeling.
I'm not sure my bones are as old as yours (48yrs) but at times they feel very old
Pete won't be discouraged, he's been at it too long for that.

All the best

Vic

PS. I like your web site. very nice.

Hello Vic,

I'm not worry because I know that I'm on the right way with this attitude. Sharing your knowledge with other is a winner/winner deal. If they feel beter in modelling, you will also learn from their experience and for me, it's an essential thing (even in the "real" life. As for my bones, they are only 3 years elder than yours.

Many thanks for your kind words about my site (For me, it's also an other form of sharing knowledge).

Greetings

Edmond

Vic,

I will be 48 in october...
I'm feeling young in my heat, but the bones are sometimes... Well, just 48...

for me 42 in june(and many of my bones have be broken sometimes) ,not a horseman just an recce airborne,and i have a little message to Nico,the Halberstadt of brussels it 's a CV not a CLIV,
best regards from belgium,Théo