1. What's the reason/rationale for this german 'lozenge' design on many of their planes? Camoflauge? Looked pretty? Did it play tricks on allied pilots eyes? What?
Glenn
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tachikawa
Joined: June 07, 2008
KitMaker: 40 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 - 02:29 PM UTC
I'm in the initial stages of my first ever bi-plane build, the 1/32nd LVG (Wingnut Wings kit). So I've many questions about bi-planes and/or WWI. So I'll start with just one for now:
1. What's the reason/rationale for this german 'lozenge' design on many of their planes? Camoflauge? Looked pretty? Did it play tricks on allied pilots eyes? What?
Glenn
1. What's the reason/rationale for this german 'lozenge' design on many of their planes? Camoflauge? Looked pretty? Did it play tricks on allied pilots eyes? What?
Glenn
JackFlash
Joined: January 25, 2004
KitMaker: 11,669 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, July 08, 2009 - 03:42 AM UTC
Here you go Glenn;
German Lozenge 101
The short answer is it was done to render the aircraft details indestinguishable. At a distance you could not readily see whether the machine was coming at you or going away. Earth tones for the upper surfaces and skytones for the lower surfaces. With shadows being on the underside these were rendered dark at an oblique angle. The attempt was to delay the enemy from engaging giving the German pilot a chance to survive.
German Lozenge 101
The short answer is it was done to render the aircraft details indestinguishable. At a distance you could not readily see whether the machine was coming at you or going away. Earth tones for the upper surfaces and skytones for the lower surfaces. With shadows being on the underside these were rendered dark at an oblique angle. The attempt was to delay the enemy from engaging giving the German pilot a chance to survive.
tachikawa
Joined: June 07, 2008
KitMaker: 40 posts
AeroScale: 31 posts
Posted: Wednesday, July 08, 2009 - 01:30 PM UTC
Interesting concept! Early 'low-visibility' paint schemes! Thanks for the reply Stephen!
Glenn
Glenn
tachikawa
Joined: June 07, 2008
KitMaker: 40 posts
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Posted: Thursday, July 09, 2009 - 03:49 PM UTC
Another question! When I see the word 'cabane', what does that refer to? Is it a strut of some kind?
Glenn
Glenn
JackFlash
Joined: January 25, 2004
KitMaker: 11,669 posts
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Posted: Thursday, July 09, 2009 - 06:18 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Another question! When I see the word 'cabane', what does that refer to? Is it a strut of some kind? Glenn
Struts that unite the fuselage with the wings usually near the cockpit and forward fuselage areas. As opposed to interplane struts that directly unite the wings.
tachikawa
Joined: June 07, 2008
KitMaker: 40 posts
AeroScale: 31 posts
Posted: Friday, July 10, 2009 - 11:20 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextAnother question! When I see the word 'cabane', what does that refer to? Is it a strut of some kind? Glenn
Struts that unite the fuselage with the wings usually near the cockpit and forward fuselage areas. As opposed to interplane struts that directly unite the wings.
Thanks Stephen! That clear that up!
Glenn
tachikawa
Joined: June 07, 2008
KitMaker: 40 posts
AeroScale: 31 posts
Posted: Friday, July 10, 2009 - 11:28 AM UTC
Okay! Next question!
Am assemblying the cockpit on this Wingnut Wings LVG kit. Trying to understand the controls and their connections. Now the rudder pedal looks to have foot controls (with cables going back to the rudder). So when you push the pedal with your left foot the plane attempts to go left...correct? As you bring the pedal back to the 'neutral' position the plane attempts to come out of the turn and fly straight...correct? So pushing the pedal with your right foot will have the plane try to turn right? I'll get to ailerons next! I know this is basic stuff but I want to make sure I'm getting it correct so if I try and 'rig' the controls on this LVG I get them somewhat accurate!
Glenn
Am assemblying the cockpit on this Wingnut Wings LVG kit. Trying to understand the controls and their connections. Now the rudder pedal looks to have foot controls (with cables going back to the rudder). So when you push the pedal with your left foot the plane attempts to go left...correct? As you bring the pedal back to the 'neutral' position the plane attempts to come out of the turn and fly straight...correct? So pushing the pedal with your right foot will have the plane try to turn right? I'll get to ailerons next! I know this is basic stuff but I want to make sure I'm getting it correct so if I try and 'rig' the controls on this LVG I get them somewhat accurate!
Glenn
vanize
Joined: January 30, 2006
KitMaker: 1,954 posts
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Posted: Friday, July 10, 2009 - 01:12 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Okay! Next question!
Am assemblying the cockpit on this Wingnut Wings LVG kit. Trying to understand the controls and their connections. Now the rudder pedal looks to have foot controls (with cables going back to the rudder). So when you push the pedal with your left foot the plane attempts to go left...correct? As you bring the pedal back to the 'neutral' position the plane attempts to come out of the turn and fly straight...correct? So pushing the pedal with your right foot will have the plane try to turn right? I'll get to ailerons next! I know this is basic stuff but I want to make sure I'm getting it correct so if I try and 'rig' the controls on this LVG I get them somewhat accurate!
Glenn
well, left foot pressure give left rudder (back of rudder goes to left of plane), which gives a yaw in that direction (nose swings left). that doesn't really make your plane actually turn all that much though. it merely side slips (if the wings are kept level).
to turn, you need ailerons to change your orientation - which increase lift on one side and reduce it on the other. during the aileron action, you apply some rudder too, but the main action of the turn is then initiated by the elevators once you are rolled the right way (or while you are rolling that way). the rudder action helps you not slip during the turn.
so, if you want to roll right, right aileron is up and left one down (more left on left side and less on right = right side dips). but you are still going straight. now pull back on the stick to get elevators to do an inside right turn, or push it to get an outside left turn (which you probably don't want to do). to keep teh plane from loosing altitude, give it a slight nose up attitude (left rudder or just don't roll all the way and turn slightly uphill-ish, or both).
at least that's what i remember - it's been a while and my memory sucks. let's get a real pilot around here to smarten this up a bit!
thegirl
Joined: January 19, 2008
KitMaker: 6,743 posts
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Posted: Friday, July 10, 2009 - 01:59 PM UTC
When you leave the rudder in the neutral position and just move the control column to the right , the plane will roll to the right , moving to left , roll left . ( like a cork screw flying in a straight line ........... ) Now move the rudder right ( right leg push ) the plane turns left , move it to the left ( left leg push ) the plane turns right . Push the control column forward and the planes points it's nose down . ( rear tail control in down position ) Pull back and the plane points it's nose up ( rear tail control in the up position )
This is how I understand how the controls work in a nut shell .
This is how I understand how the controls work in a nut shell .
vanize
Joined: January 30, 2006
KitMaker: 1,954 posts
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Posted: Friday, July 10, 2009 - 06:59 PM UTC
Quoted Text
When you leave the rudder in the neutral position and just move the control column to the right , the plane will roll to the right , moving to left , roll left . ( like a cork screw flying in a straight line ........... ) Now move the rudder right ( right leg push ) the plane turns left , move it to the left ( left leg push ) the plane turns right . Push the control column forward and the planes points it's nose down . ( rear tail control in down position ) Pull back and the plane points it's nose up ( rear tail control in the up position )
This is how I understand how the controls work in a nut shell .
just remember that "up" (back on the control stick) is a tighter turn if you aren't level
amegan
#243
Joined: March 21, 2008
KitMaker: 996 posts
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Posted: Friday, July 10, 2009 - 07:07 PM UTC
Hi Glenn,
This works for most planes,
Ailerons, controlled by the stick, push stick to the left, left aileron rises (right falls), aircraft rolls to the left, then if left in that condition will turn left. Most aircraft stop doing the action when the control is centralised. Push right for right bank.
Elevators, pull stick back, nose goes up, Push forward nose goes down
Rudder, push left pedal, rudder goes left, nose skids (yaws) to the left and if left long enough the aircraft will start to roll to the left. Push right for right yaw.
To turn, many aircraft require simultaneous application of aileron and rudder in equal amounts.
At rest, the control positions vary according to type of aircraft but in may early types the elevators would droop and the ailerons and rudder approximately central unless the pilot had locked the controls in which case the elevators would be fully up. Locking is usually done by fastening the seat belt round the stick to hold it back and central.
This works for most planes,
Ailerons, controlled by the stick, push stick to the left, left aileron rises (right falls), aircraft rolls to the left, then if left in that condition will turn left. Most aircraft stop doing the action when the control is centralised. Push right for right bank.
Elevators, pull stick back, nose goes up, Push forward nose goes down
Rudder, push left pedal, rudder goes left, nose skids (yaws) to the left and if left long enough the aircraft will start to roll to the left. Push right for right yaw.
To turn, many aircraft require simultaneous application of aileron and rudder in equal amounts.
At rest, the control positions vary according to type of aircraft but in may early types the elevators would droop and the ailerons and rudder approximately central unless the pilot had locked the controls in which case the elevators would be fully up. Locking is usually done by fastening the seat belt round the stick to hold it back and central.
Removed by original poster on 07/11/09 - 14:04:52 (GMT).
tachikawa
Joined: June 07, 2008
KitMaker: 40 posts
AeroScale: 31 posts
Posted: Saturday, July 11, 2009 - 03:16 AM UTC
This is a picture of the LVG controls. Would the ailerons control cables attach at the bottom of the 'stick' and then run out the sides of the fuselage through the wings to the ailerons. So when you move the stick laterally, left and right, the ailerons move accordingly?
Sorry for the BIG pciture. I think I'd like it just a bit smaller. I'm learning! This is my first attempt to post a picture here.
Glenn
JackFlash
Joined: January 25, 2004
KitMaker: 11,669 posts
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Posted: Saturday, July 11, 2009 - 05:56 AM UTC
Usually the aileron cables were at the bottom of the control column. Try some websites with restorations under construction. They often have diaries of their work on line.
old-dragon
Joined: August 30, 2005
KitMaker: 3,289 posts
AeroScale: 289 posts
Posted: Saturday, July 11, 2009 - 04:27 PM UTC
Actually left and right turns required alittle "up" to keep her level...at least it did with my RC planes.
amegan
#243
Joined: March 21, 2008
KitMaker: 996 posts
AeroScale: 915 posts
Posted: Tuesday, July 14, 2009 - 08:10 AM UTC
Still does Bob. Control rigging especially with early aircraft is variable and there are no hard and fast rules. I do have a joystick and rudder bar arrangement for a LVG C.V and a C.VI they are similar. The ailerons on these are operated by a double quadrant arrangement with cables running through pulleys at the side of the fuselage. The cables look to be a closed loop arrangement ( on the C.VI) running thro the lower wing near the main spar to a point below the aileron hinge halfway between the outer interplane struts from where they diverge slightly to points equally in front and behind the hinge. The ailerons are on the upper wing only. Could probably scan the drawing but I doubt if the photo detail will come out. The elevator rigging is taken by a torque tube to the sides of the fuselage where the cables connect to vertical arms above and below the tube. The rudder pedal cables on the C.V cross over each other via 2 pulleys, the cable connected to the left pedal goes down the right side of the fuselage and vice versa. The C. VI uses a simple quadrant. Checking your progress shot (nice work btw) yours is a C. VI.
tquad6
Joined: January 11, 2010
KitMaker: 45 posts
AeroScale: 44 posts
Posted: Wednesday, January 13, 2010 - 04:01 AM UTC
Hi Glen
I don't kow the answer to your question inasmuch as I'm a newbie to bi-planes also.
I'm planning on ordering a Wingnut VGB within the next couple of days myself and have question for you pertaining to the model. Does the kit contain pre-made rigging lines? If not, do the instructions tell you what to use for rigging and how to attach them. Also what diameter lines would be to scale for this 1/32 model? Thanks, Ron
I don't kow the answer to your question inasmuch as I'm a newbie to bi-planes also.
I'm planning on ordering a Wingnut VGB within the next couple of days myself and have question for you pertaining to the model. Does the kit contain pre-made rigging lines? If not, do the instructions tell you what to use for rigging and how to attach them. Also what diameter lines would be to scale for this 1/32 model? Thanks, Ron
JackFlash
Joined: January 25, 2004
KitMaker: 11,669 posts
AeroScale: 11,011 posts
Posted: Friday, January 15, 2010 - 06:31 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Hi Glen
I don't kow the answer to your question inasmuch as I'm a newbie to bi-planes also.
I'm planning on ordering a Wingnut VGB within the next couple of days myself and have question for you pertaining to the model. Does the kit contain pre-made rigging lines? If not, do the instructions tell you what to use for rigging and how to attach them. Also what diameter lines would be to scale for this 1/32 model? Thanks, Ron
Greetings Ron check out the Early Aviation title here and you will find about 20 WNW builds going on at this time. Each thread has answers to the usual questions especially the ones you have pose here. Please feel free to drop by.
tquad6
Joined: January 11, 2010
KitMaker: 45 posts
AeroScale: 44 posts
Posted: Friday, January 15, 2010 - 07:26 AM UTC
O.K. Steve -
Thanks a lot - will check it out. Ron
Thanks a lot - will check it out. Ron
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