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Discuss helicopters and other rotary wing aircraft from any era.
Discuss helicopters and other rotary wing aircraft from any era.
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Dragon's UH-1N Gunship
AlxUSMC
Joined: December 04, 2008
KitMaker: 216 posts
AeroScale: 11 posts
Posted: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 - 11:17 PM UTC
It just arrived at my door, thanks to the lovely wifey. I opened this kit and was amazed at the quality. I know this is a Panda re-issue and update from Dragon. I am just wondering before this is started has anyone purchased or completed this kit, I have several questions and can't seem to find anyone who has completed this one.
grubbyfingers
Joined: September 07, 2007
KitMaker: 404 posts
AeroScale: 339 posts
Posted: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 - 11:33 PM UTC
Hi Alex,
I've built the Panda version, but not the Dragon yet.
You can see my build here: http://www.grubby-fingers-aircraft-illustration.com/Bell_212_model.html
I hope it helps!
Graeme.
I've built the Panda version, but not the Dragon yet.
You can see my build here: http://www.grubby-fingers-aircraft-illustration.com/Bell_212_model.html
I hope it helps!
Graeme.
HeavyArty
Joined: May 16, 2002
KitMaker: 17,694 posts
AeroScale: 1,728 posts
Posted: Wednesday, July 22, 2009 - 11:06 AM UTC
I have bult the D/H model. It is the same kit with a different nose and the smaller, single engine necelle that is also in the N kit. The rest is pretty much the same. What questions do yo have?
AlxUSMC
Joined: December 04, 2008
KitMaker: 216 posts
AeroScale: 11 posts
Posted: Wednesday, July 22, 2009 - 10:32 PM UTC
Quoted Text
I have bult the D/H model. It is the same kit with a different nose and the smaller, single engine necelle that is also in the N kit. The rest is pretty much the same. What questions do yo have?
You built the dragon reissue?? There is a step in the instructions that I do not understand. I dont have the instructions with me but I will let you know as soon as I get home! thanks G
HeavyArty
Joined: May 16, 2002
KitMaker: 17,694 posts
AeroScale: 1,728 posts
Posted: Thursday, July 23, 2009 - 11:13 AM UTC
Yes, I have built the Dragon and Panda kits.
AlxUSMC
Joined: December 04, 2008
KitMaker: 216 posts
AeroScale: 11 posts
Posted: Sunday, July 26, 2009 - 08:01 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Yes, I have built the Dragon and Panda kits.
There is a an optional part on step number 7 of the Dragon issue. I have no Idea where this part is to go after it is built??
grubbyfingers
Joined: September 07, 2007
KitMaker: 404 posts
AeroScale: 339 posts
Posted: Sunday, July 26, 2009 - 10:07 PM UTC
Alex, I think the alternate parts in step 7 are side covers for the engine nacelle.
You can fit either a3 and a4 (solid covers) or a5 and a6 (ventilated covers) depending which chopper you are building. Better check your references to get the right ones!
Grubby.
You can fit either a3 and a4 (solid covers) or a5 and a6 (ventilated covers) depending which chopper you are building. Better check your references to get the right ones!
Grubby.
HeavyArty
Joined: May 16, 2002
KitMaker: 17,694 posts
AeroScale: 1,728 posts
Posted: Monday, July 27, 2009 - 01:53 PM UTC
If you are talking about the parts in the box at the lower left of the page (below), disregard it. Dragon screwed up. It is showing the PE parts for the engine fan in the exhaust on the single engine of the D or H version. It was left over from their earlier D/H model instructions. Also, be aware, many of the PE parts are for the D/H, they put the same PE in the N model. The instrument panel PE is also for a D/H, not the twin engined N model.
There are many other issues with the accuracy of the kit. The weapons load being one of them. The USMC does/did not use the miniguns in the M93 mount nor that style of rocket tube either.
There are many other issues with the accuracy of the kit. The weapons load being one of them. The USMC does/did not use the miniguns in the M93 mount nor that style of rocket tube either.
Thatguy
Joined: November 09, 2008
KitMaker: 487 posts
AeroScale: 36 posts
Posted: Monday, July 27, 2009 - 03:51 PM UTC
Quoted Text
There are many other issues with the accuracy of the kit. The weapons load being one of them. The USMC does/did not use the miniguns in the M93 mount nor that style of rocket tube either.
While the 19-tube rocket pod is definitely incorrect, the XM93 mount may not be. I'm still trying to nail this down myself. The DoD's official online picture repository has a picture from inside a UH-1 fitted with the XM93 with the caption that it is a USMC helicopter (even providing the supposed unit), and dated 1981. There's also a picture cited as being a USMC helicopter in Grenada in 1983 fitted with the M23. I'm not sure about either and I have seen various instances where the official caption is grossly incorrect.
However, there was a period before the introduction of the A/A49E-11. The two options before then would have been the XM93 and A/A49E-3. For the life of me I can't find a single picture of a helicopter with the A/A49E-3 fitted, in any service. What mount the USMC used in the late 1970s and early 1980s is difficult to determine, but by the end of the 1980s, the A/A49E-11, which is the mount currently used, had come into service and replaced anything else in use before that.
HeavyArty
Joined: May 16, 2002
KitMaker: 17,694 posts
AeroScale: 1,728 posts
Posted: Tuesday, July 28, 2009 - 02:16 AM UTC
I have only seen the M93 system gunmounts used by the USAF on their SOS UH-1Ns.
Thatguy
Joined: November 09, 2008
KitMaker: 487 posts
AeroScale: 36 posts
Posted: Tuesday, July 28, 2009 - 02:53 AM UTC
This is the picture in question:
The caption is: "SGT James D. Rowe, a Marine gunner, fires the GAU/2B machine gun from an UH-1 Iroquois helicopter gunship. The aircraft and crew are from Marine Aircraft Group 39." The credit was given to "SGT BENNETT, USMC" and the location given was "CAMP PENDLETON." The picture is dated February 1981.
The caption is: "SGT James D. Rowe, a Marine gunner, fires the GAU/2B machine gun from an UH-1 Iroquois helicopter gunship. The aircraft and crew are from Marine Aircraft Group 39." The credit was given to "SGT BENNETT, USMC" and the location given was "CAMP PENDLETON." The picture is dated February 1981.
HeavyArty
Joined: May 16, 2002
KitMaker: 17,694 posts
AeroScale: 1,728 posts
Posted: Tuesday, July 28, 2009 - 06:31 AM UTC
No way to tell from the pic what service or anything like that. I can barely tell its a UH-1. Untill I see a definitive pic that is clearly a USMC UH-1N w/M93 system, I won't build it as such.
Thatguy
Joined: November 09, 2008
KitMaker: 487 posts
AeroScale: 36 posts
Posted: Tuesday, July 28, 2009 - 07:20 AM UTC
I agree, but I figured I'd at least post the picture that prompted me to suggest that there might be a wrinkle. Regardless, for the period of the markings included in the kit, the mounts are decidedly incorrect. The A/A49E-11 dominates the pictures by 1987. The pictures of the M23 subsystem fitted to USMC UH-1Ns in 1983 are clearly identifiable though, so those mounts would also be accurate.
AlxUSMC
Joined: December 04, 2008
KitMaker: 216 posts
AeroScale: 11 posts
Posted: Tuesday, July 28, 2009 - 11:02 PM UTC
Quoted Text
No way to tell from the pic what service or anything like that. I can barely tell its a UH-1. Untill I see a definitive pic that is clearly a USMC UH-1N w/M93 system, I won't build it as such.
how did you build yours?? can you post up some pics?? perhaps recommend AM parts to correct these problems? As a Marine I want to make the best replica possible. Thanks for all your help
Hatter50
Joined: June 17, 2006
KitMaker: 478 posts
AeroScale: 391 posts
Posted: Wednesday, July 29, 2009 - 01:16 AM UTC
I'm no armorer, but the one in the photo above looks very much like the one here. I believe the terminology we used was GAU-2B. But then I was just the driver.
USMC UH-1N 1986 or 87 Hawaii.
Regards
Steve
USMC UH-1N 1986 or 87 Hawaii.
Regards
Steve
Thatguy
Joined: November 09, 2008
KitMaker: 487 posts
AeroScale: 36 posts
Posted: Wednesday, July 29, 2009 - 01:30 AM UTC
Do you remember if the mount bolted to the floor or the fuselage outside? This is the difference between the XM93 and the A/A49E-3. The assembly in which the minigun is mounted is the same, as is the ammo feed, but the mounting hardware and position are different.
Hatter50
Joined: June 17, 2006
KitMaker: 478 posts
AeroScale: 391 posts
Posted: Wednesday, July 29, 2009 - 07:10 AM UTC
Hey Joe,
Your asking real HARD questions here.
But you are asking a VERY valid question. I'd like to see the answer also.
The weapon I posted was not mounted on a "gun/rocket rack" as we didn't have any at that time in my location. That said, I do not know exactly how this one was mounted. My "guess" would be to the floor on a "plate" and maybe also to the two hard points just under the door slide on the outside. To the floor seems more plausible. You need to have some current or former gunners to read this thread for the definative answer.
Regards
Steve
Your asking real HARD questions here.
But you are asking a VERY valid question. I'd like to see the answer also.The weapon I posted was not mounted on a "gun/rocket rack" as we didn't have any at that time in my location. That said, I do not know exactly how this one was mounted. My "guess" would be to the floor on a "plate" and maybe also to the two hard points just under the door slide on the outside. To the floor seems more plausible. You need to have some current or former gunners to read this thread for the definative answer.
Regards
Steve
HeavyArty
Joined: May 16, 2002
KitMaker: 17,694 posts
AeroScale: 1,728 posts
Posted: Wednesday, July 29, 2009 - 09:42 AM UTC
Quoted Text
how did you build yours?? can you post up some pics?? perhaps recommend AM parts to correct these problems? As a Marine I want to make the best replica possible. Thanks for all your help
The best bet for an accurate USMC bird is to get the Cobra Company UH-1N Fleet Upgrade and USMC UH-1N Weapons Set, along with the MAW Decals November Huey decal set. These sets will give you all you need to build a great UH-1N. I have all these lined up for my next N build. I hope to get to it soon.
To get an idea how they can come out, you can see my builds of the Panda (pre-Dragon repop) UH-1D/H as a UH-1H Vietnam MedEvac and a White Sands Missile Range UH-1H SAR bird. The kits are basically the same, with the two-engined dog house and extended nose added to the N kit. All the other parts are identical, with the exceptions of the weapons.
Here is a UH-1N I converted from the old Revell 1/32 UH-1D/H kit long before the Panda/Dragon kit was even thought about. It has the correct weapons mount with a minigun on one side and an M2 .50 cal on the other, along with the 7-shot rocket tubes. (Excuse the photos. I had a really crappy digicam back then.)
Good luck and keep us posted.
The picture Steve posted looks to be a different mount than the M93 to me. It looks much higher up off the deck. I base this on the amount of support tube showing below it. In the picture that Joe posted you can see the floor mount and a short support post for the gun. They don't look the same to me.
Thatguy
Joined: November 09, 2008
KitMaker: 487 posts
AeroScale: 36 posts
Posted: Wednesday, July 29, 2009 - 10:06 AM UTC
Quoted Text
The picture Steve posted looks to be a different mount than the M93 to me. It looks much higher up off the deck. I base this on the amount of support tube showing below it. In the picture that Joe posted you can see the floor mount and a short support post for the gun. They don't look the same to me.
I agree that it looks higher off the deck and could be another mount. On the other hand, I'm pretty sure the XM93's support tube could be moved into a position that was more vertical, at least from what I can tell. You can see the notches in the base plate in this picture of the XM94, which used the same mount. The only reason I bring this up is because I don't think the pictures I've seen of the A/A49E-3 have the flexible tube for casings and links. These aren't featured on the A/A49E-11 either. Interestingly enough these are fitted on the Dillon Aero mounts used by on the upgraded UH-1Hs owned by the State Department.
HeavyArty
Joined: May 16, 2002
KitMaker: 17,694 posts
AeroScale: 1,728 posts
Posted: Wednesday, July 29, 2009 - 10:29 AM UTC
Could be, the mount is hard to see.
Thatguy
Joined: November 09, 2008
KitMaker: 487 posts
AeroScale: 36 posts
Posted: Wednesday, July 29, 2009 - 10:37 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Could be, the mount is hard to see.
The mount is pretty much obscured hehe, but I did notice the flexible chute. I'm starting to wonder if these might have been lacking on the A/A49E-3 and E-11 because of the fact that the mounts were not in the cabin and there was less need to physically direct the casings and links out of the aircraft. I have no idea if that's even close to correct though. Documentation on the XM93 and XM94 has been difficult to locate. I will check when I get home on whether the chute was fitted to the E-3.
Hatter50
Joined: June 17, 2006
KitMaker: 478 posts
AeroScale: 391 posts
Posted: Wednesday, July 29, 2009 - 10:48 AM UTC
I "believe" the weapon can be mounted on a variety of mounts. It's all in how the "mount" is fitted to the A/C. Universal mount with a ton of "adapters" for specific weapons. Corps is great on inprovisation. Keeps everyone guessing.
Steve
Steve
Thatguy
Joined: November 09, 2008
KitMaker: 487 posts
AeroScale: 36 posts
Posted: Wednesday, July 29, 2009 - 11:08 AM UTC
Quoted Text
I "believe" the weapon can be mounted on a variety of mounts. It's all in how the "mount" is fitted to the A/C. Universal mount with a ton of "adapters" for specific weapons. Corps is great on inprovisation. Keeps everyone guessing.
Steve
The army nomenclature designates a specific weapon and mount configuration. The XM93 was the floor mount and magazine plus the M134 Minigun. The XM94 featured the same mount and a different magazine plus the M129 40mm automatic grenade launcher. The Air Force nomenclature covers multiple systems and there is no doubt in my mind that the A/A49E-3 could accommodate other weapons, while the E-11 has been fitted with the GAU-2B/A, GAU-15/A, GAU-16/A, GAU-17/A, and GAU-18/A.
The much bigger difference between the E-3 and the E-11 is that the E-11 features a gun mount that includes a bomb rack, most commonly fitted with a 7-shot rocket pod of the LAU-68C/A variety. The E-3 was simply a gun subsystem, as was the XM93 and XM94.
The Dillon Aero mount I mentioned earlier is also capable of being fitted with multiple weapons. In most cases this is just a matter of installing the right pintle adapter and cradle into the mount. As long as the adapter fits its generally good to go. The mount's stability (and subsequently weapon accuracy) with larger weapons would likely be the only thing in question.
EDIT: So I was incorrect, the A/A49E-3 system does have the chutes too. So this could be either one.
Avroman
Joined: August 19, 2009
KitMaker: 24 posts
AeroScale: 4 posts
Posted: Monday, February 22, 2010 - 12:06 PM UTC
Hi there:
I read with interest all your comments. I'm building this model. I have a question about the piece E1, which is the metal plate that the sided machine gun is mounted on.
My problem is that, once put on the floor, it goes further that the floor, so the door won't close. Should I trim the plate? Or am I wrong?
Also, I plan to built a Viet era diorama. Is it the right version to use?
Thanks in advance
I read with interest all your comments. I'm building this model. I have a question about the piece E1, which is the metal plate that the sided machine gun is mounted on.
My problem is that, once put on the floor, it goes further that the floor, so the door won't close. Should I trim the plate? Or am I wrong?
Also, I plan to built a Viet era diorama. Is it the right version to use?
Thanks in advance
HeavyArty
Joined: May 16, 2002
KitMaker: 17,694 posts
AeroScale: 1,728 posts
Posted: Monday, February 22, 2010 - 03:03 PM UTC
First off, if you are planning a Vietnam build, it is not accurate for a USMC UH-1N (or Army helo) for that era. The only service who used UH-1Ns in Vietnam was the USAF's 20th ASOS (Air Special Operations Squadron)"Green Hornets". The weapons set-up in the kit w/the dual miniguns and rocket pods is close to what the 20th ASOS used on their helos, but they used the smaller 7-shot rocket pods. Their scheme was a three-tone camo with white undersides as well.
20th ASOS UH-1N
The scheme is hard to see on the above UH-1N, but is the same as on this 20th ASOS UH-1P.
The base plate for the miniguns is too big in the kit. I would trim them about 1/16 of an inch all the way around to make them fit better.
Good luck.
20th ASOS UH-1N
The scheme is hard to see on the above UH-1N, but is the same as on this 20th ASOS UH-1P.
The base plate for the miniguns is too big in the kit. I would trim them about 1/16 of an inch all the way around to make them fit better.
Good luck.
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