Well, I've attempted the bare metal foil method using the Microscale Metal Foil Adhesive and aluminum foil. In short, I'm not pleased with this method but it may be because of my ineptness. In just the few areas I foiled, I noted lots of air bubbles as well as brush strokes that were showing through from when the Microscale adhesive was brushed onto the aluminum. You can see the areas I'm talking about in the photos below. I'm glad I experimented with this method on a $3 model! I'll have to try one of the paint methods next-either Alclad or MM Metalizer.
I fell this kit may get the circular file treatment as is.
Pre-Flight Check
Constructive critique of your finished or in-progress photos.
Constructive critique of your finished or in-progress photos.
Hosted by Jim Starkweather
Lightning F3: Not happy with using foil
Tin_Can
Florida, United States
Joined: January 26, 2002
KitMaker: 1,560 posts
AeroScale: 750 posts
Joined: January 26, 2002
KitMaker: 1,560 posts
AeroScale: 750 posts
Posted: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 - 12:23 PM UTC
airwarrior
New Jersey, United States
Joined: November 21, 2002
KitMaker: 2,085 posts
AeroScale: 217 posts
Joined: November 21, 2002
KitMaker: 2,085 posts
AeroScale: 217 posts
Posted: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 - 12:39 PM UTC
finnish adding the foil and...........shoot it
CRS
California, United States
Joined: July 08, 2003
KitMaker: 1,936 posts
AeroScale: 1,168 posts
Joined: July 08, 2003
KitMaker: 1,936 posts
AeroScale: 1,168 posts
Posted: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 - 02:08 PM UTC
That foil is tuff to get smooth, I tried some self adhesive foil I'd picked up some where and it only works well in small areas. Alcad II has given me great results, and so has Testor's Metalizer. I find Testor's a little easier to work with as it comes in bottle or rattle can. For large overall coverage, I don't even dirty my airbrush I use the rattle can, use it out of the bottle for small panel work. Don't toss your "scratch pad model" try both Alcald II and Testor's and buff them out to see which result you like best. By the way Testor's is less expensive.
Tin_Can
Florida, United States
Joined: January 26, 2002
KitMaker: 1,560 posts
AeroScale: 750 posts
Joined: January 26, 2002
KitMaker: 1,560 posts
AeroScale: 750 posts
Posted: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 - 02:37 PM UTC
Quoted Text
That foil is tuff to get smooth, I tried some self adhesive foil I'd picked up some where and it only works well in small areas. Alcad II has given me great results, and so has Testor's Metalizer. I find Testor's a little easier to work with as it comes in bottle or rattle can. For large overall coverage, I don't even dirty my airbrush I use the rattle can, use it out of the bottle for small panel work. Don't toss your "scratch pad model" try both Alcald II and Testor's and buff them out to see which result you like best. By the way Testor's is less expensive.
Chuck, I think you hit some key points right on the head. The foil is tough to get smooth and doesn't work good over a large area.
I plan on picking up some metalizers tomorrow and doing some test shots alongside the foil to see what happens. I've got a 1/32 P-47 that gets a NMF and I wanna make sure I've got the procedure down pat before I start it. Thanks.
Part-timer
Georgia, United States
Joined: April 11, 2003
KitMaker: 361 posts
AeroScale: 0 posts
Joined: April 11, 2003
KitMaker: 361 posts
AeroScale: 0 posts
Posted: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 - 02:41 PM UTC
Wow, Tin_can, that is exactly how I've imagined any attempt by me at foil would turn out. If a modeler as skilled as you has difficulty, I haven't a prayer. I'll just stick with the Metalizer. Thanks for talking me out of wasted money and time.
SS-74
Vatican City
Joined: May 13, 2002
KitMaker: 3,271 posts
AeroScale: 0 posts
Joined: May 13, 2002
KitMaker: 3,271 posts
AeroScale: 0 posts
Posted: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 - 02:55 PM UTC
Lord Tin Man,
Sorry for the foil not working out. I was really look forward to the result. As we are about doing NMF at the same time. With me using Alclad, and you using the foil. So I can compare the end result.
But don't give up. or as CRS said, try Alclad and Testor on the same one see how it turns out.
Sorry for the foil not working out. I was really look forward to the result. As we are about doing NMF at the same time. With me using Alclad, and you using the foil. So I can compare the end result.
But don't give up. or as CRS said, try Alclad and Testor on the same one see how it turns out.
Tin_Can
Florida, United States
Joined: January 26, 2002
KitMaker: 1,560 posts
AeroScale: 750 posts
Joined: January 26, 2002
KitMaker: 1,560 posts
AeroScale: 750 posts
Posted: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 - 02:59 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Wow, Tin_can, that is exactly how I've imagined any attempt by me at foil would turn out. If a modeler as skilled as you has difficulty, I haven't a prayer. I'll just stick with the Metalizer. Thanks for talking me out of wasted money and time.
While I'm not sure I would classify myself as a "skilled" modeler, I'm glad that you can learn from my experience-that's why I posted the pics and my thoughts even though I'm nowhere near happy with it. There may be something I'm not doing correct but this foil method isn't near as easy as the recent article in FSM makes it out to be. Besides the problems noted above, I had difficulty when wrapping the foil around the wings and needing to work it around the horizontal curves of the wing tips. Also, this method can be very messy.
To those that use this method and have success, you have my respect.
CRS
California, United States
Joined: July 08, 2003
KitMaker: 1,936 posts
AeroScale: 1,168 posts
Joined: July 08, 2003
KitMaker: 1,936 posts
AeroScale: 1,168 posts
Posted: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 - 03:07 PM UTC
Tin_Can - something I forgot to mention when you a experimenting with the metalizers some basic tools ( Cotton swab or ball will do, Nylon from wife girlfriend or bankrobber, Gauze and polishing compound ) each fabric will yield different buffing results and you can use them with and without the polishing compound. Mask off small areas on the same metal surface and give them a try. Works with either MM or Alclad.
Tin_Can
Florida, United States
Joined: January 26, 2002
KitMaker: 1,560 posts
AeroScale: 750 posts
Joined: January 26, 2002
KitMaker: 1,560 posts
AeroScale: 750 posts
Posted: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 - 03:11 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Tin_Can - something I forgot to mention when you a experimenting with the metalizers some basic tools ( Cotton swab or ball will do, Nylon from wife girlfriend or bankrobber, Gauze and polishing compound ) each fabric will yield different buffing results and you can use them with and without the polishing compound. Mask off small areas on the same metal surface and give them a try. Works with either MM or Alclad.
Thanks Chuck.
SS-74
Vatican City
Joined: May 13, 2002
KitMaker: 3,271 posts
AeroScale: 0 posts
Joined: May 13, 2002
KitMaker: 3,271 posts
AeroScale: 0 posts
Posted: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 - 03:16 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Tin_Can - something I forgot to mention when you a experimenting with the metalizers some basic tools ( Cotton swab or ball will do, Nylon from wife girlfriend or bankrobber, Gauze and polishing compound ) each fabric will yield different buffing results and you can use them with and without the polishing compound. Mask off small areas on the same metal surface and give them a try. Works with either MM or Alclad.
CRS, You da NMF dude, just a question, do I need polish Alclad? can I use the fluffy thing on my dremel tool for polishing?
CRS
California, United States
Joined: July 08, 2003
KitMaker: 1,936 posts
AeroScale: 1,168 posts
Joined: July 08, 2003
KitMaker: 1,936 posts
AeroScale: 1,168 posts
Posted: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 - 03:20 PM UTC
SS-74 Thanks but it's just that I've made my mistakes too.
Yes you can use your Dremel but be careful, light touch low speed you can "burn" the finish.
Yes you can use your Dremel but be careful, light touch low speed you can "burn" the finish.
SS-74
Vatican City
Joined: May 13, 2002
KitMaker: 3,271 posts
AeroScale: 0 posts
Joined: May 13, 2002
KitMaker: 3,271 posts
AeroScale: 0 posts
Posted: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 - 03:46 PM UTC
Quoted Text
SS-74 Thanks but it's just that I've made my mistakes too.
Yes you can use your Dremel but be careful, light touch low speed you can "burn" the finish.
Thanks CRS, you are very very helpful on this NMF thing, so my best bet will be just using a ball of cotton to polish it, right? what should I polish with? Thanks. Bud
TwistedFate
Virginia, United States
Joined: February 11, 2003
KitMaker: 805 posts
AeroScale: 0 posts
Joined: February 11, 2003
KitMaker: 805 posts
AeroScale: 0 posts
Posted: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 - 04:38 PM UTC
I've never actually used Kitchen foil for this, but I did try Bare-Metal foil. It's pricey, but it worked great. I was able to get the bubbles out and it conformed to the details beautifully.
Grifter
North Carolina, United States
Joined: November 17, 2002
KitMaker: 608 posts
AeroScale: 55 posts
Joined: November 17, 2002
KitMaker: 608 posts
AeroScale: 55 posts
Posted: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 - 10:33 PM UTC
weeellll, we know how you car guys like your bare metal foil! #:-)
Posted: Thursday, August 14, 2003 - 10:03 AM UTC
Hi Bryan
I really appreciate you posting these pics... this is really what the RRB is about! :-) It's great to be able to learn from someone else's experiences - even if there are negative
I've never had much faith in domestic foil for large areas. I've read of people attaching it with varnish - which may avoid the brush-strokes problem (maybe try that on a bare bit of the Lightning before you bin it!!).
I remember an article some years back in FSM about using foil on a P-47 - it was beautifully applied, but I couldn't help but notice the really thick trailing edges it created
The natural metal method that always knocks me out is applying aluminium powder to part-dry varnish - once it's all dry and buffed, it's awesome!! :-) :-)
Cheers again
Rowan
I really appreciate you posting these pics... this is really what the RRB is about! :-) It's great to be able to learn from someone else's experiences - even if there are negative
I've never had much faith in domestic foil for large areas. I've read of people attaching it with varnish - which may avoid the brush-strokes problem (maybe try that on a bare bit of the Lightning before you bin it!!).
I remember an article some years back in FSM about using foil on a P-47 - it was beautifully applied, but I couldn't help but notice the really thick trailing edges it created
The natural metal method that always knocks me out is applying aluminium powder to part-dry varnish - once it's all dry and buffed, it's awesome!! :-) :-)
Cheers again
Rowan
CRS
California, United States
Joined: July 08, 2003
KitMaker: 1,936 posts
AeroScale: 1,168 posts
Joined: July 08, 2003
KitMaker: 1,936 posts
AeroScale: 1,168 posts
Posted: Thursday, August 14, 2003 - 12:17 PM UTC
Porky- I think MM must be powder in a Lacquer emulsion (sp) there is plenty of it around when your done spraying.
Tin_Can
Florida, United States
Joined: January 26, 2002
KitMaker: 1,560 posts
AeroScale: 750 posts
Joined: January 26, 2002
KitMaker: 1,560 posts
AeroScale: 750 posts
Posted: Thursday, August 14, 2003 - 01:29 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Hi Bryan
I really appreciate you posting these pics... this is really what the RRB is about! :-) It's great to be able to learn from someone else's experiences - even if there are negative
Rowan, that's the exact reason I went ahead and posted the pics. I figure if I show what it looks like and the problems I had others might have solutions or it might help somebody decide on what to do if they were getting ready to do a natural metal finish.
Today I picked up some MM Metalizer and sprayed some. What a night and day difference. It airbrushed beautifully with no thinning required and went down very smooth and even. I sprayed non-buffing aluminum tonight and tomorrow I'm going to spray some non-buffing steel to see how that looks. I'm really interested to see how this goes with regards to masking. I'll keep everyone posted and will post pics soon.
Desert-Fox
England - South East, United Kingdom
Joined: October 22, 2002
KitMaker: 652 posts
AeroScale: 0 posts
Joined: October 22, 2002
KitMaker: 652 posts
AeroScale: 0 posts
Posted: Thursday, August 14, 2003 - 03:39 PM UTC
I was never a fan of this method. Try using the ALCLAD II system.
http://www.alclad2.com/
http://www.alclad2.com/
Tin_Can
Florida, United States
Joined: January 26, 2002
KitMaker: 1,560 posts
AeroScale: 750 posts
Joined: January 26, 2002
KitMaker: 1,560 posts
AeroScale: 750 posts
Posted: Thursday, August 14, 2003 - 11:45 PM UTC
Quoted Text
I was never a fan of this method. Try using the ALCLAD II system.
http://www.alclad2.com/
Thanks Martin. I've researched alclad a little and may end up trying it. I'm going to give MM Metalizers a try first.
CRS
California, United States
Joined: July 08, 2003
KitMaker: 1,936 posts
AeroScale: 1,168 posts
Joined: July 08, 2003
KitMaker: 1,936 posts
AeroScale: 1,168 posts
Posted: Friday, August 15, 2003 - 02:55 AM UTC
Tin_Can - you know while you are doing all this research you should document it in photos and words and post an article.
Posted: Friday, August 15, 2003 - 08:49 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Porky- I think MM must be powder in a Lacquer emulsion (sp) there is plenty of it around when your done spraying.
Yeah!! when you see the cr*p in the air when you airbrush these paints, you really begin to see the need for good ventilation and a heavy-duty face mask!! :-)
For anyone messing about with aluminium powder - be careful... get it near a naked flame and BBBOOOOMMM!!!
I know some folks mix aluminium powder with varnish for a "home-made" paint... I've never tried it, but maybe one of you guys has some tips on this?
All the best
Rowan
ModlrMike
Alberta, Canada
Joined: January 03, 2003
KitMaker: 714 posts
AeroScale: 0 posts
Joined: January 03, 2003
KitMaker: 714 posts
AeroScale: 0 posts
Posted: Friday, August 15, 2003 - 09:37 AM UTC
I've found that when using kitchen foil it's best to work in very small areas. The last kit I used it on I went panel by panel. Tedious, but it preserved all the panel lines and went on easily. I was able to change the orientation of the grain to give subtle differences between panels.
Tin_Can
Florida, United States
Joined: January 26, 2002
KitMaker: 1,560 posts
AeroScale: 750 posts
Joined: January 26, 2002
KitMaker: 1,560 posts
AeroScale: 750 posts
Posted: Friday, August 15, 2003 - 12:47 PM UTC
Quoted Text
I've found that when using kitchen foil it's best to work in very small areas. The last kit I used it on I went panel by panel. Tedious, but it preserved all the panel lines and went on easily. I was able to change the orientation of the grain to give subtle differences between panels.
Mike, it's reassuring to know that somebody had success with this method...lol!
Posted: Sunday, August 17, 2003 - 07:50 AM UTC
:-) Thanks for posting this Bryan. I am almost ready to have a go on a complete aircraft, with kitchen foil. The test pieces I have done were very encouraging. I have managed to foil large, small and complicated areas, using this method. without bubbles or brush strokes. The only problem I had was when I tried it on the slat of a Sabre. I bent the slat as I put on the foil, this caused the foil to wrinkle when it straightend out
What has taken the time, before trying it out an a model though, was how to replicate different panels. One method has been mentioned, but I have other ideas. I'm intending to write an article, but it may take some time :-)
Mal
What has taken the time, before trying it out an a model though, was how to replicate different panels. One method has been mentioned, but I have other ideas. I'm intending to write an article, but it may take some time :-)
Mal
csch
Buenos Aires, Argentina
Joined: December 27, 2002
KitMaker: 1,941 posts
AeroScale: 1,040 posts
Joined: December 27, 2002
KitMaker: 1,941 posts
AeroScale: 1,040 posts
Posted: Sunday, August 17, 2003 - 08:14 AM UTC
That´s why I never think in using it.