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World War II
Discuss WWII and the era directly before and after the war from 1935-1949.
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Great Wall P-61 troubles...
GastonMarty
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Quebec, Canada
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Posted: Friday, September 23, 2011 - 02:54 PM UTC

I'll just leave this here for your appreciation: The first built kit I have seen (by Brett Green) has showed up, and it is much worse than initial impressions, with many additional errors in addition to the previous ones (with the horrible canopy) I mentionned. For me that is probably it...: Unless I come down with a bout of serious masochism, I'll give this one a pass...





I just cannot believe that upper fuselage edge...Litterally mind-boggling... Another 38 years to go if I understand Great Wall's message... What is really needed in this hobby is a cryogenic machine...

I didn't realize just how lucky we were with their FW-189...

Gaston

SunburntPenguin
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Australian Capital Territory, Australia
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Posted: Friday, September 23, 2011 - 10:01 PM UTC
My goodness it doesn't even look like a P-61.

Gaston, instead of posting the pictures why not post the rest of what Brett posted on Hyperscale?

Brett mentioned some of the concerns he had with the kit, yet you neglected to post them.

At least with you not buying this kit, there will be one more for someone else to buy who doesn't share your scathing critcism of this kit.
Matty_K
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Nordrhein-Westfalen, Germany
Joined: January 31, 2010
KitMaker: 103 posts
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Posted: Saturday, September 24, 2011 - 12:20 AM UTC
Well, I don‘t judge kits by some Milimeters here and some scales inches there.

But in the case of the new P-61 from GWH I think the company has just remained below its abilities and gained a half-hearted result lacking some basic carefulness - especially compared to the old Monogram kit including its shortcomings and today‘s possibilities of CAD construction and access to info sources worldwide.

All of the following imperfections are obvious and could be seen even from a three foot distance to the model:
- far too narrow cowling openings
- very simple propellers
- way to small rear side windows

Don‘t get me wrong - I highly appreciate GWH‘s ambition to produce state-of-the-art airplane kits. This time there‘s no reason to praise this kit to the skies. Not mentioning the TAMIYA-like retail price.

If this kit would have been published by Italeri the entire online community would have been torn it to shreds.

New kits are always welcome - but in this case the result is somewhat disappointing. The question is why? It doesn‘t necessarily have to be like that...

But in end it's just a hobby!

Just my 2 cents.

Cheers
Matt
GastonMarty
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Quebec, Canada
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Posted: Tuesday, September 27, 2011 - 06:26 PM UTC

Good catch Matt!

I had completely missed those rear side windows, near the transparent tail cone...: I must have assumed they varied... They are quite absurd...

The cowlings have at least one resin replacement possiblity (Vector), or raiding two Monogram kits!

If they were copying the Monogram kit, you have to wonder what in the world were they thinking about...

This kit is not even a quarter as good as their FW-189! And the FW-189 has two nice engine service platforms with stairs on top of that!

Well, at least now I know which of their kits I want...

Gaston
warreni
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South Australia, Australia
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Posted: Tuesday, September 27, 2011 - 11:06 PM UTC
That second photo makes the kit look correct. That nose is definitely not right, and the windows appear a bit shallow. It would be interesting to see what aircraft Great Wall took their measurements from. Might be a different version or a prototype. Doesn;t really worry me as I don't do 1/48.
_H_Dori
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England - East Anglia, United Kingdom
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Posted: Tuesday, September 27, 2011 - 11:12 PM UTC
Seems like a bit of a miss by Great Wall this. There was potential for a world beating kit and I was really looking forward to it but it does look....a bit funny.
I'm not saying it doesn't look "like" a P-61 but it certainly is a bit off. I think if I was given one I wouldn't complain but at the high retail price I may well stick to my Monogram one and have a tinker with it.

Howard
GastonMarty
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Quebec, Canada
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Posted: Saturday, October 01, 2011 - 12:32 PM UTC

Another BIG boo-boo has come up, this time spotted not by me but by Steve AKA "Modeldad" on Hyperscale, and absolutely correct: The base of the fins, where they meet the boom, are a "full" solid shape on the kit: On the real aircraft in the photos I posted above ( the Olive Drab one) you can clearly see the base of the fins is "radiused" concave, not convex!

The old Monogram kit had this better, and for this alone should be declared the winner in any contest between the two!!!

Where's that roll eye emoticon now....

Gaston
Matty_K
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Nordrhein-Westfalen, Germany
Joined: January 31, 2010
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Posted: Saturday, October 01, 2011 - 10:20 PM UTC
Unfortunately you have to add another shortcoming to the list:
- wrong radom (regarding version and shape)

In contrast to review samples all purchased kits (at least in the USA) seem to be delivered with wrong radoms!

Obviously the kit does not contain a translucent one for an A version but an grey solid plastic one for a B version. Additionally the latter already caused some accuracy discussions on Hyperscale.
What on earth is going on at GWH? It‘s really sad to see this after their promising Fw189.

Cheers
Matt
lampie
#029
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England - East Midlands, United Kingdom
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Posted: Saturday, October 01, 2011 - 11:03 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Another BIG boo-boo has come up, this time spotted not by me but by Steve AKA "Modeldad" on Hyperscale, and absolutely correct: The base of the fins, where they meet the boom, are a "full" solid shape on the kit: On the real aircraft in the photos I posted above ( the Olive Drab one) you can clearly see the base of the fins is "radiused" concave, not convex!

The old Monogram kit had this better, and for this alone should be declared the winner in any contest between the two!!!

Where's that roll eye emoticon now....

Gaston



According to the "Certifiable P-61 nut" over on HS there is no shape issue with the tail/boom transition.

One post suggests that the GW radome is very close to the Monogram B radome and will pass for a B radome just by filling in the panel lines.

The threads certainly making interesting reading as the mud slinging starts though!

I'm suprised you haven't you haven't joined in with the fun?

An easy addition to any AM manufacturers range though I would have thought.

Nige
KosachevSergey
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Russia
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Posted: Sunday, October 02, 2011 - 02:21 AM UTC

Quoted Text

According to the "Certifiable P-61 nut" over on HS there is no shape issue with the tail/boom transition



Of course Terry is the "Certifiable P-61 nut", but I would rather trust my eyes. That's how this place should look like:




So I'd say that GWH got it wrong, Mnogram is much better in this place.
And transition of a canopy top/fuselage (red - real plane, cyan - GWH)

BTW Monogram has the same issue, and as consequence canopy wrong as well

Sergey.



Jonathan_Mock
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United Kingdom
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Posted: Thursday, October 13, 2011 - 08:07 PM UTC
"All material is Copyright © 1998-2011 and may only be reproduced for personal use. Please contact the Editor for permission to use any material on this site for any purpose other than private use."

I see Gaston you still haven't learned nor understood the niceties of appropriating someone else's intellectual property.

If you have a point to make, take your own photos.

vanize
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Texas, United States
Joined: January 30, 2006
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Posted: Friday, October 14, 2011 - 02:38 AM UTC

Quoted Text

"All material is Copyright © 1998-2011 and may only be reproduced for personal use. Please contact the Editor for permission to use any material on this site for any purpose other than private use."

I see Gaston you still haven't learned nor understood the niceties of appropriating someone else's intellectual property.

If you have a point to make, take your own photos.




From wikipedia's page on legal aspects of hyperlinking and framing: (note that what gaston is doing is essentially deep linking, since he is using the photo from the original site and not copying it to his on sever and linking from there):

Quoted Text


State of US law after Arriba Soft and Perfect 10

The Arriba Soft case stood for the proposition that deep linking and actual reproduction in reduced-size copies (or preparation of reduced-size derivative works) were both excusable as fair use because the defendant's use of the work did not actually or potentially divert trade in the marketplace from the first work; and also it provided the public with a previously unavailable, very useful function of the kind that copyright law exists to promote (finding desired information on the Web). The Perfect 10 case involved similar considerations, but more of a balancing of interests was involved. The conduct was excused because the value to the public of the otherwise unavailable, useful function outweighed the impact on Perfect 10 of Google's possibly superseding use.

Moreover, in Perfect 10, the court laid down a far-reaching precedent in favor of linking and framing, which the court gave a complete pass under copyright. It concluded that "in-line linking and framing may cause some computer users to believe they are viewing a single Google webpage, [but] the Copyright Act" simply does not prohibit such conduct.



Gaston is not harming the economic viability of that website - rather he is probably aiding it by basically advertising for it. Ergo, how he used the online pictures is legal (at least in the USA where he is based). Heck, most of them even have the source website imprinted on them, making it even less questionable.

Copyright is essentially about preventing the loss of trade to the original creator. Deep linking a photo in a forum does not generally cause loss of trade for the copyright holder.

If a website owner wants to prevent deeplinking, it is a trivial piece of html code added to the page that can do that - not including that code is basically tactic permission to deep link for fair use purposes.


staff_Jim
Staff MemberPublisher
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Posted: Friday, October 14, 2011 - 04:58 AM UTC
There is no foul here. Gaston did not grab images from somewhere and use them in a book or in some profit making way. He is discussing a subject in a forum. That is what forums are for after all. Certainly if someone has gone through the work of editing photos to illustrate some information, etc. then the poster should (using good online etiquette) credit the site or person responsible for making the illustration. However that does not make it illegal if they do not.

Jim
robot_
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United Kingdom
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Posted: Friday, October 14, 2011 - 08:07 AM UTC

Quoted Text

(note that what gaston is doing is essentially deep linking, since he is using the photo from the original site and not copying it to his on sever and linking from there)



While I agree with the classification of usage of photographs like this as' fair use', Gaston is not deep linking. Those images obviously didn't have his annotations originally. The top image from Brett Green's review build has been poorly up-sampled and rotated. All of the images are hosted on Gaston's photobucket account.
vanize
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Texas, United States
Joined: January 30, 2006
KitMaker: 1,954 posts
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Posted: Friday, October 14, 2011 - 10:20 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

(note that what gaston is doing is essentially deep linking, since he is using the photo from the original site and not copying it to his on sever and linking from there)



While I agree with the classification of usage of photographs like this as' fair use', Gaston is not deep linking. Those images obviously didn't have his annotations originally. The top image from Brett Green's review build has been poorly up-sampled and rotated. All of the images are hosted on Gaston's photobucket account.



you are right, the pics at the top of this thread are not deep linked, but the photos of the black P-61 are.

Hosting the altered image is on somewhat grayer ground, however, he is still not interfering with the potential trade of the copyright holder or in any way making $ from the altered images, thus pretty much still falling in the category of "fair use". He even went so far as to denote Brett Green as the original model builder.

from US copyright office definition of fair use:


Quoted Text

Section 107 contains a list of the various purposes for which the reproduction of a particular work may be considered fair, such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, and research.



The referred to section 107 is here in the first chapter of the US copyright law, title 17: http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap1.pdf. Section 107 lays out fair use. Subsequent sections mostly denote exceptions to fair use and clarify special situations where copyright might be unclear, none of which really apply here.

what Gaston is doing is clearly commentary (critique in this case would probably apply to either the photos or Brett Green's work on the model, but he is making a critique of the kit, so perhaps that applies too) and would almost certainly be protected by the "fair use" clause since no there is no inherent monetary profit to him nor any loss of revenue to Brett Green or the website hosting his photos of the built P-61.

It doesn't look like there has been a legal ruling directly applying to this case, but that probably means the situation is such that it is clearly fair useage, otherwise there almost certainly would have been a case and ruling over it by now.
Jonathan_Mock
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United Kingdom
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Posted: Saturday, October 15, 2011 - 03:38 AM UTC
I think you'll find that Photobucket has a condition that members do not upload material that is not their IP or copyright - that is how I eventually had images of mine that Gaston had appropriated for his own use taken down, despite repeated emails and messages to him asking him to stop using my images.

Yes we can all point to the blurred line of "fair use" and whether someone is looking to profit, but ultimately its just plain good manners not take something that isn't yours.
GastonMarty
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Quebec, Canada
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Posted: Saturday, October 15, 2011 - 11:29 AM UTC

Never got any E-Mails, and was banned from Britmodeller before I even knew what was going on, so no PMs either...

That pretty much says it all...

Gaston
GastonMarty
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Quebec, Canada
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Posted: Saturday, October 15, 2011 - 12:46 PM UTC
The bottom line is, this is about people putting images out there but not wanting other people to point out things on these images that they don't agree with... In the Spit Mk XII issue on Britmodeller for instance, I was likely wrong about the windscreen, and correct in spades about the too deep (and hunchbacked) fuselage... But the discussion which would have revealed this was simply cut short...

Anyway, my Mk XII is painted now, and required about four-five tubes of putty to correct the nose and spine (plus the new tail and scratch-built sliding canopy), and I have plenty of my own comparative photos to show what's what and will post them soon.... Most of Airfix's troubles stem from following slavishly the antiquated Arthur Bentley drawings, rather than common sense observations of what a Spitfire should actually look like... A textbook case of ignoring carefully all photos, as with the GW P-61...

In the case of the Brett Green P-61, this is ostensibly a review build by a well-known reviewer -who I did name in the original post-. The purpose of this build is in this case is presumably to serve as consumer information... This is why I did not hesitate to put text over it to point out the issues I saw... (I would not do this to a photo of a model I can get myself, or that is made by someone not purposefully offering a review build, but simply posting a personal project)

I will always name the builder whose work I use from now on, as I did not always do so in the past because the issues from the kit that were discussed were to me completely irrelevant to, and separate from, the work of the modeller (In fact, mentionning his name makes it sound to me I am criticizing his work, but so be it).

I use other people's sprue or build photos because it seems to me the earliest a kit issue is caught, the better it is to point it out before people have them built and sitting proudly on their shelves... (Even the GW P-61 CADs proved perfectly reliable as to the incoming disaster, pointing out correctly the mismatching size and shape of the two supposedly identical windscreens)

My builds are far too slow and few in numbers to be used for that purpose, but when they are done the issues pointed out in advance will usually be confirmed compared to a stock kit next to it...

Gaston
Jonathan_Mock
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United Kingdom
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Posted: Saturday, October 15, 2011 - 10:30 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Never got any E-Mails, and was banned from Britmodeller before I even knew what was going on, so no PMs either...

That pretty much says it all...

Gaston



You were sent PMs while you were still a member plus you were asked - in public - to stop using my photos.

But just to make it clear to you now Gaston, if you feel the urge to repeat this kind of thing with any of my images again, they are not your property and are not to be reposted, amended or shared via your Photobucket or any other account.

Buy the kit and take your own photos.
Grumpyoldman
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Posted: Sunday, October 16, 2011 - 04:43 AM UTC
Personally, I would like to see this get back on topic of the strengths and weakness of the kit, not the petty bickering about the photos.
It would be a good idea for those who obviously dislike Gaston to leave it at the door, and not bring it here.
For anybody so concerned with someone using your photos, I would suggest using a simple program to watermark/copyright them before posting them anywhere on the web. I use a free program called PictureWatermarker.
thegirl
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Posted: Sunday, October 16, 2011 - 05:23 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Personally, I would like to see this get back on topic of the strengths and weakness of the kit, not the petty bickering about the photos.
It would be a good idea for those who obviously dislike Gaston to leave it at the door, and not bring it here.
For anybody so concerned with someone using your photos, I would suggest using a simple program to watermark/copyright them before posting them anywhere on the web. I use a free program called PictureWatermarker.




Well put Dave , I would like to see this get back on topic as well for the strengths and weakness in the kit , not reading a bunch of guy's arguing over photo's ...I mean really now .............


Terri
Keeperofsouls2099
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Florida, United States
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Posted: Sunday, October 16, 2011 - 06:51 AM UTC
I think there are a few on this site that are just here for drama and not the hobby.As far as the pics go any pic that you post on the world wide web is open to anyone along with your social and anything else anybody wants to find.any time you go on the internet and put it out there its global so Imho if you don't want it out there don't post it.Kit wise I think that that great wall did a nice try considering the cost of the molds,production time,marketing,employees,manufacturing etc.sit back and ask your self is there any kit that is perfect?I haven't found one yet not from any manufacture.If your going to take it this far then you mind as well start counting rivets because those are definitely wrong.If a kit is perfect right out of the box and needs nothing then why build the fun is then gone sorry
warreni
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South Australia, Australia
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Posted: Sunday, October 16, 2011 - 08:51 AM UTC
It would appear that all the Chinese manufacturers are given much higher hurdles to clear than Japanese ones.. eg Mr Green eulogises about the Tamiya P-51 and how good it is and glosses over the rivets on the wings.. exactly what he put the Trumpeter P-51 down for. Seems Tamiya can do no wrong on Hyperscale.
@ Gaston, I think you need to review your comments about the base of the tail fins as the kits are definitely not concave.
You also need to look at a kit that hasn't been painted yet as paint can throw your perception off by changing shadows etc.
@ Dave, did your ignore button fail on this one..
Congratulations to Great Wall on releasing a model that many people have wanted for many years at a good price.
Enough bickering, get back to your benches!!
Jonathan_Mock
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United Kingdom
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KitMaker: 24 posts
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Posted: Sunday, October 16, 2011 - 09:14 PM UTC
Gentlemen, as far as my IP rights go, I'll decide when its important to me - and yes I have watermarked my images and it still happened - and Gaston I also asked you here to stop.

Another discussion about a kit no one has using other people's pics - you guys carry on, I'l wait for a constructive and informed critique by someone actually making one.
Merlin
Staff MemberSenior Editor
AEROSCALE
#017
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United Kingdom
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Posted: Sunday, October 16, 2011 - 10:12 PM UTC
Hi all

OK - everyone's had their say, but it'll never be resolved squabbling in the forum. Previous threads degenerated to the point where they became so ill-mannered I had to close them due to the number of complaints received. I don't want to see this one go the same way, so can we just agree to call a truce and get back to modelling as has been requested?

All the best

Rowan
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