Hi i'm new to the forum and in need of some help. Iam building Rodens Albatros D.III (von Richthofens red fuselage) and WnW DVa (von Schleich black fuselage). Can anyone help me with the red shade i have read here to use Testors but being in the UK Testors are hard to come by and flat mil brown 1166 seems to be rarer than hens teeth are there any other shades from other makers that will do. Secondly the black fuselage would straight black seem too "bright" and new, i was thinking maybe tyre black but am not sure,any ideas? Sorry for such a long winded post, any help would be greatly appreciated.
Steve.

Greetings steles,

To be clear MvR flew several red Alb. D.III aircraft. But to tack down the shade of red for these is tough. Now his last Fokker Dr.I is easy to verify. Go with Ray Rimell's 1988 Windsock special on the MvR aircraft. His colour chips are a great guide and "Indian Lake Red" is a good reference.

Now lets move to A.E. Ferko's book "Richthofen" also from Windsock pub. More colour references are applied to these aircraft. The red used by Jasta 11 was more often a mix of German army stores and paints that were purchased locally by the the O.z.b.V.(Adjutant) and as such were likely mixed.

Next the airframes were likely stained & streaked with fluids from service. Images of the TVAL Alb.D in Omaka by Aeroscale member James Fahey show that even this relatively new machine has these in evidence. Now there is much more I could reference but this is a good place to start.

Next the Testors flat brown 1166 is much like an yellow -orange, white, brown mix. If you have an experience with raw plywood ash or birch it is much like the darkest grain. While a great wood colour is best resembles a stained wood.

See the wood grain thread for more see here.

Now as to black, when you build a kit and represent it as say Eduard Eitter von Schleich's Alb. D.Va with the Balkan Kreuz (straight armmed crosses),are you doing is as it was freshly painted, several weeks into its service or as a reserve machine after he acquired his Fokker D.VII?

Thanks for the reply, i had done a bit of researching and read about the indian lake red and presumed all his aircraft would have been the same shade, time for more reading i think. the black i want to represent as being in service for a while which is why i thought a straight black would look to pristine, i plan on modelling the plane with the eidelweiss slighltly visible i think it was Kissenberths plane at some point.Although i am not new to modelling i am new to ww1 aircraft so all help greatly welcomed.
Thanks again Steve

Stephen,
I'm curious about the Windsock Special MvR Aircraft (Ray Rimell) that you mention in the foregoing. Was it a Datafile Special? I've got The "Richthofen" Special by Ferko and also the "von Richthofen's Flying Circus" but never seen the Rimmel one. Is it still available somewhere?

Steles,
My Windsock "von Richthofen's Flying Circus" Special has a Colour Notations Table that lists "Red" as follows (Doesn't specify MvR Red however):
Typical Application - "Jasta 11 colour-wide variations":
Recommended Methuen ref 9AB or FS595 Ref. as FS12199.
Unfortunately the only cross reference I could find was Humbrol HM9 which I believe is an older paint identifier. I have some really old cans of Humbrol that are labeled HG (German) HB (British) etc thus I suspect the HM referred to is really outdated as well.
This probably doesn't help much I know but I thought I'd pass it on. My personal colour notes recommend a 50/50 mix of Testor's Model Master Enamels Insignia Red #1705 with Guard's red #2718 which I used on my recent Dr.I build on this page and really was pleased with. I also had another note stating that MvR's 425/17 all red machine is best represented by a mix of 3/4 RLM 23 (Rot) and 1/4 Insignia Red. I personally would find this one too light and "pinkish". These notes are random at best; don't know the sources other then they were gleaned from Net articles 10-12 years ago!
Hope you can find a source for Testors or a suitable cross reference and please forgive the long winded reply.

Cheers,
Lance

Lance,
thanks for the info the Testors reds you mentioned are available here it is just 1166 flat military brown that was mentioned as a mix seems impossible to get, so thank you you have been a great help

Steve,
The number 1166 you refer to is one of, what I call, the "original" Testors colors which are the small 7ml. bottles. (before they made the Model Master series) I have a bottle in my supply which has probably been there for 10 or more years. I still see these products in the toy sections of stores here but havn't noticed them in the Hobby Stores I use.
I'll keep my eyes open; if I see them here in Walmart or a similar store I'll grab a couple of bottles for you.Worst case I'll mail you the "antique", it appears to be still ok. Another approach for you may be Model Master #1701, labeled FS30117 Military Brown. I have both in front of me and, in the bottles, they appear to be the same. I'd be glad to mail you what I can find to help out. I won't be visiting a Hobby Shop for another month; I live a fair distance from big city shopping and don't have a local source for Model Master. I tend to stock up on our visits to civilization every few months.
Let me know if you need help.

Cheers,
Lance

Hi Lance
that is a really kind and generous offer, i am going to try your suggestion 50/50 guards & insignia red which are available over here. I came to this decision after seeing you DrI build the red looks good. I then looked through your album and have to say your work is stunning. If i can gain a 1/4 of your results with my builds i will be very happy. Once again thanks for your help and advice.
You are sir a gentleman and a scholar.

Steve,
Well, er, maybe a gentleman...........
My good wife left for the big city (Edmonton) this morning and has the old jar with her, will try to grab a couple if available. I'll let you know how it works out.
And thanks for the compliments on my builds, it's always great for the confidence and motivation when fellow enthusiasts send nice words!

Cheers,
Lance

At the risk of seeming flippant I would like offer a couple of facts.Firstly, being pedantic about colour of aircraft that existed almost 90 years ago is pointless, aircraft change colour as they age. They also need repairs which means that panels are often different colours as older paints fade but new panels have fresh paint. I have a picture of a Stearmean with three wings in light yellow and one in a deeper shade, and that was taken last year, not in wartime. On our airfield there is a Steen Skyblt painted black about 15 years ago, it still looks black but dusty and faded in patches. I'd paint it black, like it just came out of the factory, then weather it with grey and brown washes. The red too would fade towards pink on an aircraft kept outside so again the colour would vary. I sometimes think that we try for an unrealistic degree of accuracy, when realism would be better.

No worriies Amegan,

In my opinion there are other considerations as well. My aim is usually to pick a time period that the machine existed. Factory fresh, in service or at the end. Some machines had a very short life indeed. Consider Oblt. Ernst Udet's Early Schwerin build Fokker D.VII we usually call "Du doch Nicht!!" It was in its bright livery for about 3 weeks before it was lost. Stark's OAW Fokker D.VII went through several months where markings were enhanced and added. Knowing the history of a particular machine gives the builder a rule of thumb as to the condition of a given airframe at a given time.

For instance:
The ever popular German Ace Oblt.Ernst Udet’s early Fokker D.VII is now known to be an early Schwerin aircraft not an OAW as the provided reference in the Roden kit implies. Commonly referred to as DDN in reference to the statement Udet had painted on the elevators, “Du doch nicht!!” , which translates to, “Certainly not you!!” It was believed to have been assigned to him on or about June 13, 1918 and was lost in combat on June 26, 1918. Recently, various interpretations of the three known images of this aircraft have surfaced. To convert the Roden to an early Schwerin type simply erase the circular access port on each surface of the side cowling panels and paint the vertical fin “red” upto the area adjacent to the rudder balance (the forward most portion of the top of the rudder where it curves down to the vertical fin.) Also indications tell us that “DDN” used a Mercedes D.IIIaü 180hp. The nose and under carriage were probably “red” as well.