_GOTOBOTTOM
World War II
Discuss WWII and the era directly before and after the war from 1935-1949.
Hosted by Rowan Baylis
New B-29 kit woes...
GastonMarty
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Quebec, Canada
Joined: April 19, 2008
KitMaker: 595 posts
AeroScale: 507 posts
Posted: Thursday, November 15, 2012 - 02:30 PM UTC

I have finally realized why the Monogram kit's canopy/nose might "feel" so different from the real thing: The real aircraft fuselage appears to me to not be cylindrical all the way to the rear of the cockpit main canopy glass: From the rear of the forward pressurized compartment forward, it seems to taper narrower from a truly cylindrical middle fuselage.

This is not the best photo, but all of them suggest the same thing... The B-29 fuselage, it seems, does not just taper from the rear, but from the front as well...: The vertical red line is put just behind the front pressurized compartment's rear bulkhead join line, to leave it visible as the start of this seemingly full radius frontal taper:



I wouldn't be surprised if ALL kits in all scales were ignoring this. The trouble is, it is not even that subtle, as can be seen, and has major implications on how the canopy looks...

This really is for me the last straw for the Monogram kit, which of course does not depict this, in addition to not depicting the frise ailerons, half of the exhaust tubes, and also lacks a realistic wing airfoil for good measure...

Even the uglier-nosed Monogram B-24 has a decent wing airfoil, with correct frise ailerons...

Notice I didn't even bring up the ballooned-out right fuselage moulds (to erase a mould flaw, the whole right fuselage being re-ground deeper, hence the stubbier right wingroot, and assymetrically slightly oval right fuselage cross-section)...

Gaston
Jessie_C
_VISITCOMMUNITY
British Columbia, Canada
Joined: September 03, 2009
KitMaker: 6,965 posts
AeroScale: 6,247 posts
Posted: Thursday, November 15, 2012 - 05:23 PM UTC
So if none of the mainstream kits are worth your while, then you're just going to have to build this one, aren't you?
EdgarBrooks
_VISITCOMMUNITY
England - South East, United Kingdom
Joined: June 03, 2006
KitMaker: 397 posts
AeroScale: 384 posts
Posted: Thursday, November 15, 2012 - 08:25 PM UTC
On the real aircraft, the outboard engine's propeller is behind that of the inboard; on your photo it's in front, which, to anyone who knows photography, means that the photo has not been taken at exactly 90 degrees to the centre-line of the aircraft, but at a backwards angle. This will throw the perspective out completely, so that the front fuselage appears to taper more than it really does; this effect will be exacerbated if the lens used was a wide-angle, which, judging by the apparent relative size of the engine to the fuselage, was certainly the case.
Marks 4/10 could do better.
Edgar
Mgunns
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Arizona, United States
Joined: December 12, 2008
KitMaker: 1,423 posts
AeroScale: 1,319 posts
Posted: Friday, November 16, 2012 - 08:55 AM UTC
I guess you won't have a B-29 in your collection will you?
Siderius
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Tennessee, United States
Joined: September 20, 2005
KitMaker: 1,747 posts
AeroScale: 1,673 posts
Posted: Friday, November 16, 2012 - 09:15 AM UTC
This is all rather ridiculous. If it looks like a B-29 build it!! LOL Russell
Holdfast
Staff MemberPresident
IPMS-UK KITMAKER BRANCH
#056
_VISITCOMMUNITY
England - South West, United Kingdom
Joined: September 30, 2002
KitMaker: 8,581 posts
AeroScale: 4,913 posts
Posted: Friday, November 16, 2012 - 08:04 PM UTC
I have the Monogram kit in my stash but as I have moved up to 1/32 scale I was looking to sell it. I think that I will build it now! It may have a some flaws but I have seen a few built and it looks impressive and, more importantly, looks like a B-29 and I don't care if the, slight, (exaggerated in your picture!!!) fuselage taper is not spot on or even not there! It's about having this iconic aircraft in my collection and it will be a great canvas for painted on markings
OEFFAG_153
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Västra Götaland, Sweden
Joined: February 19, 2010
KitMaker: 1,473 posts
AeroScale: 1,450 posts
Posted: Friday, November 16, 2012 - 10:44 PM UTC

Quoted Text

So if none of the mainstream kits are worth your while, then you're just going to have to build this one, aren't you?



What a build – I'm hooked! Thanks for the link Jessica!
GastonMarty
_VISITCOMMUNITY
Quebec, Canada
Joined: April 19, 2008
KitMaker: 595 posts
AeroScale: 507 posts
Posted: Saturday, November 17, 2012 - 08:50 AM UTC

Quoted Text

On the real aircraft, the outboard engine's propeller is behind that of the inboard; on your photo it's in front, which, to anyone who knows photography, means that the photo has not been taken at exactly 90 degrees to the centre-line of the aircraft, but at a backwards angle. This will throw the perspective out completely, so that the front fuselage appears to taper more than it really does; this effect will be exacerbated if the lens used was a wide-angle, which, judging by the apparent relative size of the engine to the fuselage, was certainly the case.
Marks 4/10 could do better.
Edgar



Couldn't you have checked other pictures before saying this?

You mean Boeing's GA drawings don't even show they tapered the fuselage ahead of the bulkhead?

To be fair, the taper seems not quite as radical below as it is on top, which seems to suggest they intended to accomodate the canopy in some way, and they actually modified the fuselage out of round in that area to minimize its radiuses I suppose...

While the first picture was not the best, I don't see how you could construe the added taper as a perspective effect...

Anyway, since you wanted the engines ligned up correctly here you are: Even the prop blades are nearly aligned... It has the effect of making the top outline taper even more obvious:



If it really is true that Boeing General Arrangement drawings do not show this, then it should serve as a warning as to the wisdom of using GA drawings as reference...

For those interested, I added in white the way the Monogram kit's outline is contructed, except for the one white line following the top of the real aircraft's top taper: There the Monogram kit follows the paralell red line above it instead : It's the "step" ahead that shows the kit's discrepancy on top, at the rear top of the main canopy, which is something like 6 inches +...

You can also see that the point of the taper's "start" corresponds roughly with the front pressurized compartment's rear bulkhead's panel line, both top and bottom.

Even if we accept that there is no plan view taper in the rear of this area (still unclear to me), just angling down the kit's front spine is not enough (the "drop" is about twice beyond the thickness of the kit's plastic to carve and sand btw...): The kit's nose cap is sized proportionately to the oversized front fuselage anyway, as is the main glasshouse, so entirely scratchbuilding the entire canopy is inevitable...

I'm doubting I will ever get around to do it someday... Just downsizing the nose cap is a huge endeavour because it is a compound curve on a circular object: It would really have to be spun on a machine to get constant radiuses all around...

The main canopy glasshouse, both kit and unfortunately even the Squadron canopy, share the same too large diameter and, just as important, an insufficient profile curve...

Yet, since manufacturer rely so heavily on drawings (or old kits!) these days, it's a real possibility a new release would also get this wrong in the same way or even worse, just like what happened to the GW P-61...

I'll try to find out more about it, but it really looks like I'll have to stick with the more reasonable B-24 canopy correction that has just decided it wants to work now, after about 6 kits...

Gaston
Merlin
Staff MemberSenior Editor
AEROSCALE
#017
_VISITCOMMUNITY
United Kingdom
Joined: June 11, 2003
KitMaker: 17,582 posts
AeroScale: 12,795 posts
Posted: Saturday, November 17, 2012 - 11:00 AM UTC

Quoted Text


I have finally realized why the Monogram kit's canopy/nose might "feel" so different from the real thing: The real aircraft fuselage appears to me to not be cylindrical all the way to the rear of the cockpit main canopy glass: From the rear of the forward pressurized compartment forward, it seems to taper narrower from a truly cylindrical middle fuselage... Gaston



Hi everyone

What are you all arguing about? Gaston, the kit fuselage isn't "cylindrical all the way to rear of the cockpit main canopy glass" - it tapers from the line of the turrets, as you show in the photos of the real thing (unless yours is very different from the one I've just pulled out of the stash and put a straight edge against)...

All the best

Rowan
Dragon164
#226
_VISITCOMMUNITY
British Columbia, Canada
Joined: February 20, 2012
KitMaker: 1,909 posts
AeroScale: 508 posts
Posted: Saturday, November 17, 2012 - 11:56 AM UTC
Hi,
Just turn a new nose on a lathe and use that to vacuum form a nose and canopy. Done.

Cheers Rob.
EdgarBrooks
_VISITCOMMUNITY
England - South East, United Kingdom
Joined: June 03, 2006
KitMaker: 397 posts
AeroScale: 384 posts
Posted: Saturday, November 17, 2012 - 09:10 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Couldn't you have checked other pictures before saying this?


Why should I? What I said was that you were putting up a dud photograph, and (as usual) scrawling lines all over it, because you can't trust adult modellers to use their eyes to make up their own minds.

Quoted Text

You mean Boeing's GA drawings don't even show they tapered the fuselage ahead of the bulkhead?


Show me where I said that, and don't put words into my mouth.
So, let's see what your "revelations" amount to:-
1/. Your photo (eventually) shows that the B29's fuselage tapers, forward of the front pressure bulkhead.
2/. Rowan has measured the kit's fuselage, and it tapers, forward of the front pressure bulkhead.
3/. Contrary to your "If," Boeing's G.A. drawings (reproduced in Detail & Scale Vol. 10) show the fuselage tapering forward of the front pressure bulkhead.
Really doesn't amount to a can of beans, does it?
How about putting up a photo (taken with the correct focal-length lens) of a B-29, with a photo of the kit's fuselage, plus Boeing's drawings, and refraining from distorting the images with your silly red lines, so that members of this website can use their eyes to judge, for themselves, if your claims (on a kit which is no longer available in this country, anyway) have any substance?
Edgar
Holdfast
Staff MemberPresident
IPMS-UK KITMAKER BRANCH
#056
_VISITCOMMUNITY
England - South West, United Kingdom
Joined: September 30, 2002
KitMaker: 8,581 posts
AeroScale: 4,913 posts
Posted: Monday, November 19, 2012 - 08:05 PM UTC
Well said Edgar Thanks for checking Rowan, like I said earlier it looks like a B-29 I always new that there was an issue with the canopy but it was never something that was going to stop me building the kit, if I wanted to.

Gaston any credibility that you have regarding what you say simply goes straight out of the window when you attempt to put words into someone else mouth; I, for one, simply stop listening as soon as you do that, remember everyone has a voice and you are not always right! Trying to defend your point when you have been proved wrong, or, as is usual, just relying on "doctored" photos also turns me off what you have to say I normally refrain from doing more than having a look to see what you are stirring up and it is always the same, and the constant drip, drip of this doesn't make me want to listen to anything that you have to say
drabslab
_VISITCOMMUNITY
European Union
Joined: September 28, 2004
KitMaker: 2,186 posts
AeroScale: 1,587 posts
Posted: Monday, November 19, 2012 - 10:28 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Well said Edgar Thanks for checking Rowan, like I said earlier it looks like a B-29 I always new that there was an issue with the canopy but it was never something that was going to stop me building the kit, if I wanted to.

Gaston any credibility that you have regarding what you say simply goes straight out of the window when you attempt to put words into someone else mouth; I, for one, simply stop listening as soon as you do that, remember everyone has a voice and you are not always right! Trying to defend your point when you have been proved wrong, or, as is usual, just relying on "doctored" photos also turns me off what you have to say I normally refrain from doing more than having a look to see what you are stirring up and it is always the same, and the constant drip, drip of this doesn't make me want to listen to anything that you have to say



Wow, this conversation is getting very far from modelling, isn't it?

Maybe its better to simply shut down this thread?
Merlin
Staff MemberSenior Editor
AEROSCALE
#017
_VISITCOMMUNITY
United Kingdom
Joined: June 11, 2003
KitMaker: 17,582 posts
AeroScale: 12,795 posts
Posted: Monday, November 19, 2012 - 11:32 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Maybe its better to simply shut down this thread?



Hi Drabslab

Sadly, I think you might be right. I know Gaston's post as often as not stir up some pretty strong feelings (and I suspect that's partly why he writes them), and thankfully this thread isn't like one which I was forced to delete a while back because of the level of personal abuse to which it had descended, but it clearly could head that way...

All the best

Rowan
 _GOTOTOP