Hey everyone,
I'm curious. If you were going to build in 1/32 scale, with an NMF finish, which kit might you choose? Here are some criteria to consider:

1. Surface Details. Not only correct details (panel lines in all of the right places, etc.) but also crispness of those details.

2. Fit. Everything should go together easily with little sanding or filling required. It's not that I'm afraid to fill and sand. But I hate wiping out details.

3. Cockpit, wheel-well, landing gear and tires.

Assume that there could be money for Aftermarket. What would you buy with your chosen kit.

Thank you for your consideration!

Gaz

WNW Sopwith Snipe post war, although that is silver dope of course.

Hi Gaz

My vote goes to a Tamiya P-51 straight out of the box.

You'll understand why I'm not recommending the Italeri Mirage IIIc :-)

Does this mean we are in for a master class on using foil to achieve NMF? I hope so.

All the best

S

The very thought occurred to me...

Without a doubt the Tamiya P-51.


Best fitting model I have ever built.

https://aeroscale.kitmaker.net/features/4899

Guys,
Thank you for your replies. I'm still working on the B-29. I just have an obstacle to get over before I resume foiling it.

After seeing what few NMF entries there were at this years annual big show, I realize there might be a place for my limited skills in the competition. But I realize that to be in a competition I would need to start with the best kit possible.

Thank you very much!

Gaz

Gary,
Tamiya's P-51D kit is the best of the best for fit and overall dimensions. The ZM kit is rather nice also, but unless you're also interested in detailing or at least showing off the inner workings of the many panels that are opened, it's a also ran to the Tamiya effort.

With that being said, P-51Ds are fairly common place. You might want to try and grab the judges attention with lets say the Hasegawa P-47D Bubbletop.

There are also many excellent NMF jets in 1/32 scale. The F104 is a personal favorite of mine.

Joel

Joel,
Thank you for your reply! I haven't limited myself to one plane, but it was nice to get a consensus on one kit at least.


I bet a foiled F104 Starfighter would be awesome! Always loved that plane! Tamiya again?

Best Wishes,

Gaz

Gary,
Italeri has two kits. One for the A & C, and one boxing for the F & S. It's actually supposed to be a pretty decent kit unlike their Mirage IIIc.

Joel

Joel,
Suggesting the Starfighter really set my mental wheels to spinning. Intrigued by the idea I went googling for it last night. It would definitely have to be a US model. That airframe just screams speed, and I'm wondering if a foiled model on a polished brass base shaped to enhance that impression of speed might be a little more eye-catching than the standard wheels-down configuration.

What do you think?

Best Wishes,

Gaz

Gary,
If you're building for a contest, you need to check with the contest chairman to see if a display model in flying configuration is allowed in the category you're looking to enter, or where it would be placed.

Just keep in mind that the judging in the 1st few rounds is about perfect basics. As I said before, 90%+ of the entrants are eliminated on poor basics. Stands, bases, etc. are not judged as they have nothing to do with the model entry. There are even rules as to what you can and can't do with a base before it's considered a diorama.

That being said, every F104C I've seen in NM has been a eye catcher. In 1/32 scale most contests short of the IPMS nationals, every era and type other then conversion, vacuform, and scratch build are in one category. So if you want to stand out from the pack, the F104 trumps the P-51D hands down.

Joel

Joel

Hi Gary

Hobby Boss's Thunderjet would look very tasty too, and I haven't seen too many around, so it would likely also stand out from the crowd.

If you didn't mind doing a bit of extra work though, I'd head completely to the other extreme and go for the classic old Williams Bros. Seversky P-35. I built one in the late '70s and it was my first effort at re-scribing (it has raised panel lines). It would look awesome with a foil finish!

All the best

Rowan

Joel,
Thank you for your thoughts and recommendations. Another reason I am considering a sleek stand is to elevate the model a bit higher than the standard height of the collapsible tables used at the show. Maybe just a foot higher or so depending on the actual size of the model. The bird just looks so good up in the air!

Fortunately for me, the chairman of the annual show also happens to be one of the guys from the club I will join at their next meeting. So I'll have almost a year to find out what has to be done. And almost a year to be distracted by other things...

Merlin,
Thank you, too. I have thought of the Thunderjet for a later build. The Cold War has lots of opportunities to tackle the challenges of real metal. The English Lightning and a Plethora of MiG's are all likely candidates.

I've seen a foiled Seversky. It's not a bad looking plane. I'm not currently seeking another rescribing job, however. No matter how I try, I'm just never pleased with the results.

Best Wishes,

Gaz

Gary,
The added height will be great for the viewing public as it's an attention getter for sure. But for contests, each model is picked up by the judges so that they can inspect the bottom of the model. Attaching it to a stand would make that task somewhat harder as they would end up using mini mirrors.

I keep on pointing out that a single building flaw would negate a otherwise perfect foiling job as it's errors over details 1st and foremost.

Like you, I'm not fond of re-scribing as the end results almost never look like the actual kit molded lines. I've been experimenting with a completely new method that seems to produce consistently better results. Next step is to try it on the Mossie.

The recess line is created with a fine razor saw. I've found this to be much easier to control then a scriber, and the line is only as wide as the blade, while a scriber deepens and widens a recess line. I only use either the UMM-USA scriber or the Tamiya one to deepen a major recessed line. Clean the recessed line. Then I lightly apply some Extra Thin which smooth's the lips and seals the plastic. When dry I lightly sand with 600 grit, then polish. If the lines are shallow I skip the Extra thin step. So far the few tests I've done are far superior then the sub standard efforts I always end up with.

Joel

Joel,
Your messages about building flaws is not lost on me. Another reason for wanting a good kit to start with.

I'm intrigued by your method of scribing. What brand of saw are you using? And does your method work for curves? Curves are a huge problem for me. I've wasted so much time on the curved panels of the B-29.

I know we'll never completely escape the need to scribe. But I don't know that I'll ever find a path to perfection.

Best wishes,

Gary

Gary,
I'm using the CMK Ultra and Extra blades that I got from Sprue brothers. I don't use the handle. I have the Exacto hand saws for bigger cutting jobs. I use the tip of the blades at angles to start or for small panel lines, and the whole blade for long runs. I use Electrical tape rather then labeling tape as a guide. Much easier to position, goes around some curves with ease, and it's so much cheaper. Scriber are horrendous at leading edges and going around a fuselage, while the saw blades make it a non-issue. I do use my scribers for deepening and widening recessed lines like flying surfaces from the rest of the wing, etc.

I'm also finally breaking down and buying some templates for circles, ovals, etc. Moving into 1/32 single engine props it's even more important to replace all the lines I've sanded away.

Joel

Gary,
There are only two F104Cs made in 1/32 scale-- Italeri's new offering, and Hasegawa's venerable F104C. Both companies make later versions, and West Germany had Gs in NMF and US markings based in Texas for transition flying. There is also the NF104 which was a high altitude/speed rocket engine test bed (Chuck Yaegers mount in "The Right Stuff") of which there were three made. I've finished two F104s in foil using the older Hasegawa kit, which to me is the more accurate model because it has accurate raised panel lines and some rivets, which the real thing had. They can be either lightly sanded or engraved whichever you prefer. The Hasegawa kit does require some scratchbuilding or aftermarket in the cockpit and wheel bay (flying configuration wouldn't be a problem). CMK and Verlinden both make AM for the kit, including the M61 Vulcan gun bay. As for the Italeri kit, it has engraved panel lines, which are more like trenches to me, and there is some issue on the top of the fuselage where the panel lines meet, one side is much softer than the other. One of my foiled Hasegawa kits has placed first in category in the three contests it's been in, and I didn't re-engrave anything. The other was re-engraved and sold to a private collector. I have two more on the shelf. Fit is not to bad. I can't vouch for fit in the Italeri kit-- and it's expensive, over $100 USD in some places, but the wheel bays and cockpit are fairly nice. For me, an F104 is the ultimate interceptor-- a cross between a plane and rocket-- I'd go with that one-- it screams for foil, and the marking options are pretty amazing. If you want to see more of the Hasegawa kit, there are several foiled builds over at Large Scale Planes, and several builds of the Italeri version as well. I think your idea of a polished brass base is super-- with the model displayed going straight up or near vertical-- gotta find a pilot though. Saves table space too!
VR, Russ

Joel,
Thank you for that info. I have a circle template, but didn't find it overly helpful. Maybe because I'm a klutz. I ended up refilling all of the smaller circles, and doing the larger curves by hand, very slowly.

But I'll definitely be checking out the saws and trying your technique.

Best wishes,

Gaz

Russ,
That's great insight into the Hasegawa 1/32 scale F104. I'd love to see the finished model. How about doing a feature article or a post with pictures in the pre-flight check. Are you a member over at LSP?
Joel

Russ,
Thank you for your thoughts. I could ask a ton of questions about working with raised lines, and especially with foiling them. There's a lot of time between now and when I might start this project, which I'll use to look at the work of others before I come to a final decision.

Best wishes,

Gaz

As I told Jessie (on this web site) the other day-- I have yet to figure out how to upload photos-- but, if you send me a PM with your email, I'll forward you the photos. Biggest foil problem with the F104 (any manufacturer) are the compound curves where the tail area joins the wings, and the area behind the intakes-- one author on Largescale shows how to do this. The reason I prefer Hasegawa's is because the panel lines are all there, crisp, just raised. With some finesse, you can either sand them down a bit or re-engrave them or just leave them alone (there are not that many on the F104 anyway). I've seen the Italeri kit, and the panel lines are all engraved, but they seem overly large and deep to me, and the rivets are large and deep too. I'd rather engrave than fill-- its difficult to get a uniform size and depth by filling. The Hasegawa kit is a whole lot cheaper too-- you can get one for under $40 USD if you look hard enough. I used a combination of Kitchen Aluminum foil, Bare Metal Foil, and some aluminum candy wrapper material (Nestle Crunch and Cadbury's), which is nice and thin (but I had to eat a lot of chocolate too!) The one problem (or not, depending on how you look at it) was on US F104s the wings were actually painted gloss white, and finding an enamel or Acrylic paint that doesn't yellow over time is difficult.
VR, Russ

Foiling a panel on a recessed lines model is straightforward. Burnish it down, cut along the edges with the tip of your knife, peel off the excess, and move to the next panel.

With raised lines, I don't know. Do I trim the foil on the inside of the raised line leaving the raise line exposed? Do I cover the raised line with foil judiciously? Am I not covering the raised lines so I can paint them later.

The aluminum polish I use and the turpentine I use to clean it off will do nasty things to raised lines. It may solve the raised line issue. No pun intended. I can clean it off with nail polish remover, too....with less adverse effects on the styrene.

So, I'd like to save $$$ with a Hasegawa kit. But I think I need to find a junk kit with raised lines on which to experiment.

Wish I hadn't pitched all of the spare parts from my last kit with raised lines.

Gaz

Russ,
Posting pictures on Aeroscale is the same as on most other sites. You need to have a photo hosting service. I, like a many here use Photobucket. I did opt for the $2.99 upgrade as I post a lot of pictures per month on a few sites, not all related to model building. Before I upload to the site, I resize the pictures to a max of 1024x768 so that they don't need to compress my photos and end up cutting off the perimeter. From there you just copy the IMG info for each picture one at a time and paste it in your post where you want it. Do it one or two times, and you're an expert.

Joel

Gaz,
I don't think foiling with raised panel lines is too much different than foiling with engraved lines, in some cases it's easier because you can cross lines with a larger sheet of foil without having to worry about pressing into a line and breaking the foil. I use Micro-scale adhesive for foiling, and I've also been using a commercial spray adhesive available at Office Depot or Lowes (stateside office supply store and a big box hardware store) for attaching the foil, both use alcohol for clean up/removal. It's been ten years now for my F104, and there's no sign of loosening of the foil. I also sand the panel lines so they are just visible. I don't think polish would hurt the foil over the lines much, but I don't polish the foil-- if I want a slightly different look for different panels, I have three methods I use-- with kitchen foil I reverse sides, there's usually a shinny side and a duller side. I also use oooo steel wool for a buff, and finally, for varying colors, I heat the foil for varying times in a small pan of olive or cooking oil-- it will change color depending on the length of time you heat it.
I think I understand what you are getting at with the foil possibly lifting at the panel line seam if you make a cut and polish it there-- it's possible, I just try and be careful. I apply my adhesive to the foil too, not to the model so much, and buff it down with a piece of balsa wood. I use Alclad Gloss Clear (used to use Testors metal finish sealer) but Alclad is better in my opion as a sealant in some cases-- it prevents the foil from oxidizing over time.

Joel,
I've been meaning to get a photobucket account, I do most of my correspondence on an iPad, and now most of my photography on an iPhone. I'm a bit of a Luddite when it comes to desktop computers, I have one downstairs, but I'm having knee replacement in a week, so I don't think I'll be setting up an account anytime soon since the doc says no stairs for a while-- no driving either, just a lot of PT! My daughter does all my computer update work, she's an IT specialist, and tells me PICNIC all the time (problem in chair, not in computer!) as I have a knack for screwing electronics up! I do enjoy talking about models and seeing others work on line-- I saw your Brewster Buffalo over on Large Scale Models-- great work by the way. im mostly a lurker on these sites, but I will get with the program eventually!
VR Russ

Yes. Period.