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Planes shooting themselfs down
drewgimpy
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Utah, United States
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Posted: Wednesday, October 23, 2002 - 04:36 PM UTC
At work today someone (the guy at work that knows EVERYTHING) tried to tell me a F4 corsair shot itself down by flying so fast it ran into it's own bullets therefore shooting itself down. I did stop laughing long enough to tell him he was full of it and that the F4 could not even come close to the sound barrier let alone being as fast as a .50 cal or 20mm. He then swore on his grave that some plane in history did fly so much faster than it's bullets that it did shoot itself down by running into the bullets it fired out in front of it. My question is this. Am I so dumb that this happened and I never heard of it? I can't believe for a second this did happen.
Jeepney
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Philippines
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Posted: Wednesday, October 23, 2002 - 04:50 PM UTC
I don't know Andrew. I heard a lot of weird things, like a bomber killing another plane with a bomb, a fighter shot down by its own missile, planes shot down by air to ground missiles, etc. But a plane getting hit by its own bullets is nonsense. Physics tells us that if a bullet is fired from a plane, the total speed of the bullet is its own speed plus the speed of the plane.
SS-74
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Vatican City
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Posted: Wednesday, October 23, 2002 - 04:53 PM UTC
I think there was case that a jet shot down by its own guided missle because the guidance system went wrong or something. But never heard the bullets hit the plane, especially a propellered one.

But another story I heard another day was a guy runs fast and hit by it's own bullet during the WW I....Yeah. #:-) #:-)
Jeepney
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Philippines
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Posted: Wednesday, October 23, 2002 - 04:57 PM UTC
Maybe before synchronizers were developed, planes shot themselves down by shooting off their own propellers #:-) Or like in the movie "Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade", the plane gets shot down by it own gunner
Folgore
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Canada
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Posted: Wednesday, October 23, 2002 - 05:39 PM UTC
Like Jeepney says, when the plane shoots a bullet, it will come out with the extra speed of the plane added to it. Just like if you drop a bomb out of a plane, it won't go straight down, because it will initially be moving forward at the same speed as the airplane was when it released it.
But, perhaps if in the plane you fired the shots while you were climbing, then turned into a bit of a dive, if you timed it right, they could land on you. Whether this would do much damage, though, I can not say.

Nic
SS-74
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Posted: Wednesday, October 23, 2002 - 06:56 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Like Jeepney says, when the plane shoots a bullet, it will come out with the extra speed of the plane added to it. Just like if you drop a bomb out of a plane, it won't go straight down, because it will initially be moving forward at the same speed as the airplane was when it released it.
But, perhaps if in the plane you fired the shots while you were climbing, then turned into a bit of a dive, if you timed it right, they could land on you. Whether this would do much damage, though, I can not say.

Nic



Besides speeds also need to consider the direction of travelling, if you fire your gun climbing, the bullet would go upwards....then if you choose to dive to increase your own speed, so your own bullet can hit you, then you are just flying further away from the bullets....
drewgimpy
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Utah, United States
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Posted: Wednesday, October 23, 2002 - 07:34 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Physics tells us that if a bullet is fired from a plane, the total speed of the bullet is its own speed plus the speed of the plane.



That's exactly what I thought but before I go in tommarow and tell the guy he is full of crap for sure, I wanted to know if others heard of it. Thats why I said I can't believe for a second this happened. I know it's a stupid question, but I didn't want to be the one who insisted I was right and not turn out to be right even though I can't see any way this could happen. Thanks for undulging my stupid question. I can't wait to go to work tommarow. How could someone actually insist this was true? I just don't get it. Of course one could also say that this is such a load of crap why would I even need to ask for clearification.
Envar
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Uusimaa, Finland
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Posted: Wednesday, October 23, 2002 - 07:49 PM UTC
Good morning everybody! I just love to read this kind of topics first thing in the morning! You see, I thought I was the only person who gets kick from thinking about this kind of what-ifs!
I have a few favourites:
If you are in an elevator and it falls 30 meters, you have nothing to worry about, just jump inside the elevator when it hits the floor! You should land safely. #:-)

You´re driving 40 mph with your car. You throw a tennis ball BACKWARDS exactly 40 mph from the moving vehicle.
The tennisball falls straight down. #:-)

Seriously, there was a close-accident last night here in Finland. A Hawk was just about to land, altitude 100-150m when somebody shot at it with a signal flare...it didn´t hit, though. I wonder what the guy was thinking???

Toni
Jeepney
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Philippines
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Posted: Wednesday, October 23, 2002 - 07:53 PM UTC
Some people just like spouting nonsense, Drew, because they sometimes get away with it. If he is the notorious office know-it-all nobody believes him anyway.
Jeepney
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Philippines
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Posted: Wednesday, October 23, 2002 - 08:00 PM UTC
I just love questions like these! #:-)


Quoted Text


If you are in an elevator and it falls 30 meters, you have nothing to worry about, just jump inside the elevator when it hits the floor! You should land safely. #:-)


Not true! You will just push the elevator down faster or slow yourself by a few meters per second. You'll have to jump hard, at least launch yourself at the same velocity upward as the elevator's velocity downward


Quoted Text


You´re driving 40 mph with your car. You throw a tennis ball BACKWARDS exactly 40 mph from the moving vehicle.
The tennisball falls straight down. #:-)


True. Same explanation as the elevator.


Quoted Text


Seriously, there was a close-accident last night here in Finland. A Hawk was just about to land, altitude 100-150m when somebody shot at it with a signal flare...it didn´t hit, though. I wonder what the guy was thinking???



Good thing the Hawk pilot did not call in an airstrike
Linz
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Australia
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Posted: Wednesday, October 23, 2002 - 08:58 PM UTC
Actually, I've head a few stories of planes shooting themselves down with their own ammunition, however it generally takes place on strafeing runs, the aircraft flying into a bunch of rounds that have ricochadded (sp?) off the ground/target.

Rather rare, rather flukey, but it has happened.

Cheers,
Linz
penpen
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Hauts-de-Seine, France
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Posted: Wednesday, October 23, 2002 - 11:16 PM UTC
I've heard that legend... it was with an F11 tiger jet diving and shooting... and then catching up with the bullets... a good joke, isn't it ?

But seriously, many planes shot themselves down with their own bombs ! Often, they were flying too low and when the bomb exploded, they were hit by schrapnel or debris.
Also, in Vietnam some planes dropped their bombs and when falling some bombs hit each other, exploding in mid-air and damaging the plane. That's why the new multiple bomb launchers were developed. Or is this another legend ?
AJLaFleche
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Massachusetts, United States
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Posted: Thursday, October 24, 2002 - 12:42 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I've heard that legend... it was with an F11 tiger jet diving and shooting... and then catching up with the bullets... a good joke, isn't it ?




I remember seeing something about this in the 1950's in an illustrated magazine, possibly a comic book of some sort, but told as true. This involved a Navy F9F Panther firing cannon rounds downward while in full thrust. Supposedly, the plane out accelerated the rounds and several damaged the aircraft.

Whether this is true or not, it's certainly not a new story.
MadMeex
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Vaasa, Finland
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Posted: Thursday, October 24, 2002 - 12:46 AM UTC
Here's a link to the story. I can't vouch for the accuracy of the website, but if you read it on the net, it must be true!
AJLaFleche
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Massachusetts, United States
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Posted: Thursday, October 24, 2002 - 01:22 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Here's a link to the story. I can't vouch for the accuracy of the website, but if you read it on the net, it must be true!



Thanks for the link. This is the same story I remembered, though my recollection of the a/c was flawed. I can still remember the graphics of the blue nosed aircraft in the illustrations.
stavka2000
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Noord-Holland, Netherlands
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Posted: Thursday, October 24, 2002 - 01:25 AM UTC
Andrew,

In Vietnam there was one helicopter, an ACH-47 Chinook gunship, that shot itself down after the coaxial machine gun on it had pivoted upward as a result of a broken pin.

Of course in FAA speak, this is a rotorcraft, not an airplane

You can find stuff on this on the Vietnam Helicopter Flightcrew Network.

Regards,
Bravo-Comm
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Texas, United States
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Posted: Thursday, October 24, 2002 - 02:45 AM UTC
OH BOY,
Heres one that I actually get to answer...And it is one that I know from historical
records including a history program outlining the SR-71 When the SR-71 waas origionally
developed it was thougfht that it could be used as an extremely high altitude Interceptor, So
it was outfitted with missles and test fired from same platforms, After the weapon was released the SR-71 would increase speed and in a number of trial runs the missles almost caught up with the plane. SO obviously it was figured out that the SR-71 vwould make a lousey interceptor. Hence the concept of a HIGH ALTITUDE HIGH SPEED Recon plane to assist the U-2 project. Which was decided could not meet that need. i.e. a number of them were shot down by Russian or Cuban Anti-Aircaft Missles. The SR-71 was quiet able to both out run and out distance any current A/A Missles in those countries inventories.
So in short it never actually shot itself down but it came close enough on several occassion during it's early days. Also shortly before the SR-71 was taken out of service due to the advances made in Satallite Technology. A North Korean A/A BAttery attempted to shoot one down with a Missle. Howevwer by the time the missle made it to where the SR-71 was suppossed to be i.e. interception course. The crew was alerted and hit the afterburners. Speeding away at twice the speed of the on coming missle, Much less it's altitude. Basicly the A/C crew was laughing thier butts off 20 miles and seconds later . While the N.K A/A crew were left looking TOTALLY STUPID !!. in short the SR-71 was the only known A/C to fly faster than it's own weapons systems. Which is why that program was ended and established instead as a High Speed, High Altitude Recon A/C.

DAGGER-1
Tankera1
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Tennessee, United States
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Posted: Thursday, October 24, 2002 - 05:06 AM UTC
I have heard for years about a jet fighter that shot itself down. Looks like the areo file story might bare looking into. Not sure that I would go tell the guy at work he was full of it just yet.
Whiskey
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Texas, United States
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Posted: Thursday, October 24, 2002 - 06:11 AM UTC
During the Korean War the Zuni rocket was developed.Now retired,Col.Jack Broughton describes in his book "Going Downtown" several incidents where he was in the unit expermenting the zuni and once fired it would immediatly do a vertical loop and hit the aircraft that fired it.He was very fortunate when it happened to him because the rocket did not actually hit him.
During Vietnam pilots always had a case of the practically useless sidewinders coming back at them.I say practically useless because about 75-80% of the time the bloddy things never worked right and if it had we would have bagged more MiGs.
Bombs blowing up the delivering aircraft has always happened throughout air warfare as aircraft get to low and the shock or shrapnel,etc knocks the plane out of the sky.
Aircraft flying into thier own bullets I have never heard and I seriously doubt it I ever will hear a case were it happens.But asit has been pointed out by MadMeex and Penpen it obviously has happened.But that was under very rare circumstances.
Anyhoo thats my two-cents.Hope ya enjoyed it lol.
Linz
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Australia
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Posted: Thursday, October 24, 2002 - 09:11 AM UTC

Quoted Text

8) OH BOY,
Heres one that I actually get to answer...And it is one that I know from historical
records including a history program outlining the SR-71 When the SR-71 waas origionally
developed it was thougfht that it could be used as an extremely high altitude Interceptor, So
it was outfitted with missles and test fired from same platforms, After the weapon was released the SR-71 would increase speed and in a number of trial runs the missles almost caught up with the plane. SO obviously it was figured out that the SR-71 vwould make a lousey interceptor. Hence the concept of a HIGH ALTITUDE HIGH SPEED Recon plane to assist the U-2 project. Which was decided could not meet that need. i.e. a number of them were shot down by Russian or Cuban Anti-Aircaft Missles. The SR-71 was quiet able to both out run and out distance any current A/A Missles in those countries inventories.
So in short it never actually shot itself down but it came close enough on several occassion during it's early days. Also shortly before the SR-71 was taken out of service due to the advances made in Satallite Technology. A North Korean A/A BAttery attempted to shoot one down with a Missle. Howevwer by the time the missle made it to where the SR-71 was suppossed to be i.e. interception course. The crew was alerted and hit the afterburners. Speeding away at twice the speed of the on coming missle, Much less it's altitude. Basicly the A/C crew was laughing thier butts off 20 miles and seconds later . While the N.K A/A crew were left looking TOTALLY STUPID !!. in short the SR-71 was the only known A/C to fly faster than it's own weapons systems. Which is why that program was ended and established instead as a High Speed, High Altitude Recon A/C.

DAGGER-1



The SR-71 was never proposed as an interceptor, the YF-12 was. The YF-12 was in turn a devolpment of the A-12 - as was the SR-71.

The idea of the YF-12 was very good, it was determined that only 93 production F-12B's would be needed to defend CONUS. It demonstrated kills of targets at all heights and speeds with its armament of 3x AIM-47 missiles. One of the kills was against a B-47 flying at 1500ft and 36 miles away. The YF-12 who achieved this kill wsa at M3.2 and 75 000ft.

The USAF never issued a contract, generally it is believed this was done to keep the XB-70 program from being effected.

Cheers,
Linz
ShadowAC119
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United States
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Posted: Thursday, October 24, 2002 - 10:16 AM UTC
One of the pre-production F-14s shot itself down when a Sparrow came out of the 'Tunnel' (area between the engines) and had a guidence system failer. both crewmen survived the incident but the plane was lost.


Shadow
lambertjr
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United States
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Posted: Thursday, October 24, 2002 - 02:44 PM UTC
A F-4 will easily break the speed of sound. I'm very sure of that.
Bravo-Comm
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Texas, United States
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Posted: Friday, October 25, 2002 - 03:27 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

8) OH BOY,
Heres one that I actually get to answer...And it is one that I know from historical
records including a history program outlining the SR-71 When the SR-71 waas origionally
developed it was thougfht that it could be used as an extremely high altitude Interceptor, So
it was outfitted with missles and test fired from same platforms, After the weapon was released the SR-71 would increase speed and in a number of trial runs the missles almost caught up with the plane. SO obviously it was figured out that the SR-71 vwould make a lousey interceptor. Hence the concept of a HIGH ALTITUDE HIGH SPEED Recon plane to assist the U-2 project. Which was decided could not meet that need. i.e. a number of them were shot down by Russian or Cuban Anti-Aircaft Missles. The SR-71 was quiet able to both out run and out distance any current A/A Missles in those countries inventories.
So in short it never actually shot itself down but it came close enough on several occassion during it's early days. Also shortly before the SR-71 was taken out of service due to the advances made in Satallite Technology. A North Korean A/A BAttery attempted to shoot one down with a Missle. Howevwer by the time the missle made it to where the SR-71 was suppossed to be i.e. interception course. The crew was alerted and hit the afterburners. Speeding away at twice the speed of the on coming missle, Much less it's altitude. Basicly the A/C crew was laughing thier butts off 20 miles and seconds later . While the N.K A/A crew were left looking TOTALLY STUPID !!. in short the SR-71 was the only known A/C to fly faster than it's own weapons systems. Which is why that program was ended and established instead as a High Speed, High Altitude Recon A/C.

DAGGER-1



The SR-71 was never proposed as an interceptor, the YF-12 was. The YF-12 was in turn a devolpment of the A-12 - as was the SR-71.

The idea of the YF-12 was very good, it was determined that only 93 production F-12B's would be needed to defend CONUS. It demonstrated kills of targets at all heights and speeds with its armament of 3x AIM-47 missiles. One of the kills was against a B-47 flying at 1500ft and 36 miles away. The YF-12 who achieved this kill wsa at M3.2 and 75 000ft.

The USAF never issued a contract, generally it is believed this was done to keep the XB-70 program from being effected.

Cheers,
Linz


OKAYYYYYYY,
I guess I stand corrected. Linz, Your a MEANIE. And I'm gonna go tell my Momma on you. LOL Well it had been a while back since I had seen the program, So I apparrently got my facts mixed up. SORRY FOLKS..." HEY" at least I'm big enough to admit when I Goofed.
SO THERE #:-) #:-) XB-70 was'nt that the VALKERIE Plane ?? it did not see action either, How ironic. Was'nt there something like 3 of the original A/C to be developed and flown ??
two of which crashed. And the third, I don't remember. But I THINK it was decommissioned and then sent to an aviation museum or something..Don't recall exactly the whole story right now. ANYWAY I remember I built a model of one when I was a teenager, And could not help thinking, And this thing is suppossed to be able to fly .... HOW ?? Super Bomber..Yeah... Right !!. Linz, Your welcome to chime in here and correct me..As I'm sure your about to anyway. LOL

DAGGER-1
AJLaFleche
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Massachusetts, United States
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Posted: Friday, October 25, 2002 - 07:26 AM UTC
The last XB-70 Valkirye is at the Air Force Museum in Dayton OH. One HUGE mutha of a plane. Beuatiful, though! The exhausts look to be 10 feet tall and the gear are way taller than the B-1's. It's so big, you can't even get it in one frame using a wide angle lens. (The more famous crash was filmed as an F-104 chase plane got pulled into the wing or one of the tails) That pilot bought it but at least one of the XB-70's crew survived.
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