Is anybody aware of any manufacturer using the internet to provide their buyers with additional information on top of the instructions provided with the kits?
They must have heaps of info; photo's, drawings, background information. Why do they not publish what is relevant on the net?
Would it become to easy for us to spot where they have taken much liberty desiging the kit?
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manufacturers missing an opportunity?
drabslab
Joined: September 28, 2004
KitMaker: 2,186 posts
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Posted: Thursday, July 16, 2009 - 04:43 AM UTC
vanize
Joined: January 30, 2006
KitMaker: 1,954 posts
AeroScale: 1,163 posts
Posted: Thursday, July 16, 2009 - 06:22 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Is anybody aware of any manufacturer using the internet to provide their buyers with additional information on top of the instructions provided with the kits?
They must have heaps of info; photo's, drawings, background information. Why do they not publish what is relevant on the net?
Would it become to easy for us to spot where they have taken much liberty desiging the kit?
I think it's because they'd have to pay someone to make the webpages and upkeep them, which would be cost past on to you, the modeler who is buying their products.
AJLaFleche
Joined: May 05, 2002
KitMaker: 8,074 posts
AeroScale: 328 posts
Posted: Thursday, July 16, 2009 - 06:23 AM UTC
Probably because things can change quite quickly on the net. Wouldn't you be frustrated 
with Dragon/Tamiya/Trumpeter, etc., if they gave you a bunch of links and the owners closed half of them down by the time you bought the model and another half of those were closed by the time you pulled the kit out of the stash? Much of my stash is from the paleosilicate 
age before computers were a household item.
Just remember, Google is your friend.
with Dragon/Tamiya/Trumpeter, etc., if they gave you a bunch of links and the owners closed half of them down by the time you bought the model and another half of those were closed by the time you pulled the kit out of the stash? Much of my stash is from the paleosilicate age before computers were a household item. Just remember, Google is your friend.
Emeritus
Joined: March 30, 2004
KitMaker: 2,845 posts
AeroScale: 1,564 posts
Posted: Thursday, July 16, 2009 - 07:32 AM UTC
One of my current projects I'm working on is AZ model's VL Pyry and the manufacturer has a set of interior photos of the plane on their website.
I guess the lack of online references provided by manufacturers must also have something to do copyrights. Manufacturers would either have to produce the references themselves or ask for permission from every source they liked to include.
I guess the lack of online references provided by manufacturers must also have something to do copyrights. Manufacturers would either have to produce the references themselves or ask for permission from every source they liked to include.
jaypee
Joined: February 07, 2008
KitMaker: 1,699 posts
AeroScale: 1,384 posts
Posted: Thursday, July 16, 2009 - 07:56 AM UTC
you look at wingnut wings for a great example of supporting the custumer.
Not saying it is perfect, but there are ref photos, kit instructions, plans and
a rotating 3d model of the subject.
They are a new company and so this is part of their process. Like anything
big companies will be slower to take this up but it will probably come.
Good point drabslab.
Not saying it is perfect, but there are ref photos, kit instructions, plans and
a rotating 3d model of the subject.
They are a new company and so this is part of their process. Like anything
big companies will be slower to take this up but it will probably come.
Good point drabslab.
warreni
Joined: August 14, 2007
KitMaker: 5,926 posts
AeroScale: 2,201 posts
Posted: Thursday, July 16, 2009 - 08:59 AM UTC
Agree re Wingnuts JP. I have all four kits but haven't built one as yet. Too many other builds for campaigns at the moment. There are so many campaigns on that I have not submitted the ones I have thought up.. about 10 of them! 
"Live long and prosper."
"Live long and prosper."
wombat58
Joined: March 26, 2009
KitMaker: 366 posts
AeroScale: 309 posts
Posted: Thursday, July 16, 2009 - 01:05 PM UTC
I have just completed the Wingnuts LVG C.VI but during the construction I had a few questions that needed answering. I emailed Wingnuts and within a few hours had the answers I needed, fantastic customer support, very rare these days.
Cheers
Des.
Current projects;
Roden de Havilland DH2 1/32
WNW Junkers J.1 1/32
WNW Bristol F.2b 1/32
Cheers
Des.
Current projects;
Roden de Havilland DH2 1/32
WNW Junkers J.1 1/32
WNW Bristol F.2b 1/32
wizard179
Joined: January 27, 2006
KitMaker: 251 posts
AeroScale: 179 posts
Posted: Thursday, July 16, 2009 - 07:02 PM UTC
I think Accurate Miniatures provide a little on their site. I read a page about how to fit the turret on their Avenger... Fightertown decals have more reference shots of the planes used in some of their decal sets.
It's a shame some of the other's don't but maybe with the minor inaccuracies caused by providing multiple kit versions from only a few molds it's not in their best interest?
Cheers
Damian
It's a shame some of the other's don't but maybe with the minor inaccuracies caused by providing multiple kit versions from only a few molds it's not in their best interest?
Cheers
Damian
pigsty
Joined: January 16, 2007
KitMaker: 1,226 posts
AeroScale: 640 posts
Posted: Friday, July 17, 2009 - 02:00 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Is anybody aware of any manufacturer using the internet to provide their buyers with additional information on top of the instructions provided with the kits?
They must have heaps of info; photo's, drawings, background information. Why do they not publish what is relevant on the net?
Perhaps they've heard of this 'ere "google" thing that you can do your own research with? Or, more seriously, perhaps (i) what they've got is subject to conditions like not re-publishing it, or it's their own property and they'd prefer just to sell the kit; or (ii) they'd still only have a sample of the total that's available on the Interweb and the net effect on helping you make the kit wouldn't be that great; or (iii) not everyone is on the Interweb (true!) so it would be a bit of a slap in the face for them.
Quoted Text
Would it become to easy for us to spot where they have taken much liberty desiging the kit?
Not sure what you mean. If it's that publishing this information would show where corners had been cut, etc, the flip-side of what I say above is true: it takes only moments to find out for yourself, so trying to hide it would be a waste of time.
If you think this is a good idea - and I do agree, it could be useful - why not ask a few manufacturers and see what happens?
thegirl
Joined: January 19, 2008
KitMaker: 6,743 posts
AeroScale: 6,151 posts
Posted: Friday, July 17, 2009 - 02:24 AM UTC
How many modelers actually do research on a subject ? Vast majority of modelers buy the kit and build it following the kit instructions . So would it really be feasible for the manufactures to have the info they used posted on their sites or links to the info they used .
Wing nuts has this which is great but for the bigger ones like Eduard , Tamiya , Hasegawa etc , etc . This would be very time consuming and costly to maintain this info which would get past on to us , the modelers . With high kit prices already it will hurt some ones pocket book .
Like some of the guys have said Goggle and not every one has a computer or access to the web . Like one of my friends says , it's a hobby so why would I spend more time doing research when building ...........I don't get paid to do it !
Wing nuts has this which is great but for the bigger ones like Eduard , Tamiya , Hasegawa etc , etc . This would be very time consuming and costly to maintain this info which would get past on to us , the modelers . With high kit prices already it will hurt some ones pocket book .
Like some of the guys have said Goggle and not every one has a computer or access to the web . Like one of my friends says , it's a hobby so why would I spend more time doing research when building ...........I don't get paid to do it !
Tomcat31
#042
Joined: November 18, 2006
KitMaker: 2,828 posts
AeroScale: 1,720 posts
Posted: Friday, July 17, 2009 - 06:51 AM UTC
Another opportunity I think they are missing out on is recycling. How many of us when we finish with the sprues just throw them in the bin 
Now if manufacturers included a prepaid envelope with the kit for you to place the used sprues into and send back they could recycle them back into more kits. I realise that cost for the initial outlay would be a factor but surely saving the planet would be great PR? I for one would mind paying an extra £, $, etc or two. if it would help the planet in the long run.
Hewlett Packard have been doing this for the last few years with their ink jet cartridges to great effect.
Just some more food for thought
Now if manufacturers included a prepaid envelope with the kit for you to place the used sprues into and send back they could recycle them back into more kits. I realise that cost for the initial outlay would be a factor but surely saving the planet would be great PR? I for one would mind paying an extra £, $, etc or two. if it would help the planet in the long run.
Hewlett Packard have been doing this for the last few years with their ink jet cartridges to great effect.
Just some more food for thought
wombat58
Joined: March 26, 2009
KitMaker: 366 posts
AeroScale: 309 posts
Posted: Sunday, July 19, 2009 - 12:20 AM UTC
[quote]How many modelers actually do research on a subject ? Vast majority of modelers buy the kit and build it following the kit instructions . So would it really be feasible for the manufactures to have the info they used posted on their sites or links to the info they used .
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You make a few good points Terri.
Before I start any project, I do as much research as possible into the subject, I look at every possible avenue for information, including google, then sit down and compare all the data I have, decide what I will or will not add to my aircraft, then, and only then will I start construction.
The manufacturers have done a lot of homework to gather as much info as they can before they start to produce a kit, once in production they no longer need to source further information so what they have should be made available to the modeller. When you think about it logically, the data they have is really part of the kit, it's specifications about the particular aircraft kit you are building, so why not include as much detail as possible so you can replicate a model as true to life as possible. Wingnuts have done a great job with the release of the first 4 kits and the information which they have made available with each kit is exceptional.
You are right by saying that the price of kits may increase, (Wingnuts for example) but like the old saying goes, you only get what you pay for. You are also correct in saying not everyone has access to a computer, this would limit the available information to them considerably, so to have the information included with the kit would be a real asset.
Spending time gathering information or spending time building the model? This depends entirely on the individual, not all of us want to add every single rivet, every screw head or every bit of electrical wiring behind the instrument panel. Straight out of the box is perfect for some, they make up to be very presentable and impressive models, but for others, detail is everything.
So, yes is my answer to manufacturers adding all the data with each kit, the information they have belongs with the model.
Cheers
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You make a few good points Terri.
Before I start any project, I do as much research as possible into the subject, I look at every possible avenue for information, including google, then sit down and compare all the data I have, decide what I will or will not add to my aircraft, then, and only then will I start construction.
The manufacturers have done a lot of homework to gather as much info as they can before they start to produce a kit, once in production they no longer need to source further information so what they have should be made available to the modeller. When you think about it logically, the data they have is really part of the kit, it's specifications about the particular aircraft kit you are building, so why not include as much detail as possible so you can replicate a model as true to life as possible. Wingnuts have done a great job with the release of the first 4 kits and the information which they have made available with each kit is exceptional.
You are right by saying that the price of kits may increase, (Wingnuts for example) but like the old saying goes, you only get what you pay for. You are also correct in saying not everyone has access to a computer, this would limit the available information to them considerably, so to have the information included with the kit would be a real asset.
Spending time gathering information or spending time building the model? This depends entirely on the individual, not all of us want to add every single rivet, every screw head or every bit of electrical wiring behind the instrument panel. Straight out of the box is perfect for some, they make up to be very presentable and impressive models, but for others, detail is everything.
So, yes is my answer to manufacturers adding all the data with each kit, the information they have belongs with the model.
Cheers
drabslab
Joined: September 28, 2004
KitMaker: 2,186 posts
AeroScale: 1,587 posts
Posted: Sunday, July 19, 2009 - 08:53 PM UTC
I am sorry but the "everything is on Google" argument does not fly:
First, because Google does not produce information, it only displays what others make available.
Second, a self respecting manufacturer will not hope for google to provide service to the customer but do it personally.
As for the cost argument, the largest part of the cost of a website is preparing/making the content. Take Aeroscale as an example. Where it takes a couple of minutes/ up to an hour to publish a review or feature, it is costing the author many hours to write it.
At the moment of releasing a new model, the manufacturer has everything ready at hand, all content (pictures, building instructions, history of the aircraft...) is available but only a fraction is reproduced in the paper sheet that comes with the model. Publishing a wider selection on the net can not be a problem and just be part of the publicity campaign surrounding the release.
Maybe we should launch a "which manufacturer has the best website" campaign where each participant builds a model of a manufacturer which has the most informative and useful website. That could raise manufacturers awareness to this topic.
First, because Google does not produce information, it only displays what others make available.
Second, a self respecting manufacturer will not hope for google to provide service to the customer but do it personally.
As for the cost argument, the largest part of the cost of a website is preparing/making the content. Take Aeroscale as an example. Where it takes a couple of minutes/ up to an hour to publish a review or feature, it is costing the author many hours to write it.
At the moment of releasing a new model, the manufacturer has everything ready at hand, all content (pictures, building instructions, history of the aircraft...) is available but only a fraction is reproduced in the paper sheet that comes with the model. Publishing a wider selection on the net can not be a problem and just be part of the publicity campaign surrounding the release.
Maybe we should launch a "which manufacturer has the best website" campaign where each participant builds a model of a manufacturer which has the most informative and useful website. That could raise manufacturers awareness to this topic.
warreni
Joined: August 14, 2007
KitMaker: 5,926 posts
AeroScale: 2,201 posts
Posted: Sunday, July 19, 2009 - 09:01 PM UTC
Can't say I agree 100% here. For me, and it appears most other modellers, we are more than happy to build the model OOB. I just take extra care with colour callouts as many can be wrong. As Terri said, it would cost a manufacturer a small fortune to publish all its research material on the net. It would also then be open for other manufacturers to use all this hard won (in some cases) information.
I suppose it comes down to whether you are building museum replicas or models. I build models and if they look like the real thing to me then I am happy.
As a wise modeller once said "Build what you want, how you want it."
I suppose it comes down to whether you are building museum replicas or models. I build models and if they look like the real thing to me then I am happy.
As a wise modeller once said "Build what you want, how you want it."
vanize
Joined: January 30, 2006
KitMaker: 1,954 posts
AeroScale: 1,163 posts
Posted: Monday, July 20, 2009 - 05:25 AM UTC
Part of my job involves web publishing for a company.
trust me, you do not want to pay the extra amount your model is going to cost you to support the web presence and all the underlying stuff that would cost the model making company.
It is one thing to publish on the web as an individual - you are legally protected in many ways. However, once you start doing it as a company, you will literally be descended upon by lawsuits unless you have all your "i"s dotted and "t"s crossed. The first thing this means is employing legal division, who are going to get paid about 2 to 5 times as much as anyone else at the company. Also means you have to have a web developer to maintain the site - another large expense if you don't want a bumbling fool doing it (which you don't). Also you now have to maintain servers with the info on them - and the IT guy who is doing that also does not come cheap either.
Of course, you can pay some other company a large wad of $$$ to do those things for you (except for that legal part, which you can't skimp on - costs way more to NOT have them), and most likely they'll do it wrong AND outsource it to some group in a developing country who doesn't really care and you never get to talk to directly except at 3am (ask me how i know).
no matter how you slice it, that model just got a lot more expensive, and all you get out of it is some research that the you may or may not care about. And then also people who didn't buy the model get the benefit of the research too, which doesn't help the company much.
I figure either the modeler doesn't care much about research, or wants to do the research themselves (i'm the latter). While it might seem really cool to get a research packet available, I don't see it being a big boon too all that many people.
If was was the manager at a model company in charge of the decision to do this or not, I would DEFINITELY give it the thumbs down on the basis of a cost vs. returns analysis.
Yes, as a modeler, it would be great to see, but it doesn't make financial sense for a company trying to survive in a very competitive market where the consumers are already griping about the high cost of the product.
trust me, you do not want to pay the extra amount your model is going to cost you to support the web presence and all the underlying stuff that would cost the model making company.
It is one thing to publish on the web as an individual - you are legally protected in many ways. However, once you start doing it as a company, you will literally be descended upon by lawsuits unless you have all your "i"s dotted and "t"s crossed. The first thing this means is employing legal division, who are going to get paid about 2 to 5 times as much as anyone else at the company. Also means you have to have a web developer to maintain the site - another large expense if you don't want a bumbling fool doing it (which you don't). Also you now have to maintain servers with the info on them - and the IT guy who is doing that also does not come cheap either.
Of course, you can pay some other company a large wad of $$$ to do those things for you (except for that legal part, which you can't skimp on - costs way more to NOT have them), and most likely they'll do it wrong AND outsource it to some group in a developing country who doesn't really care and you never get to talk to directly except at 3am (ask me how i know).
no matter how you slice it, that model just got a lot more expensive, and all you get out of it is some research that the you may or may not care about. And then also people who didn't buy the model get the benefit of the research too, which doesn't help the company much.
I figure either the modeler doesn't care much about research, or wants to do the research themselves (i'm the latter). While it might seem really cool to get a research packet available, I don't see it being a big boon too all that many people.
If was was the manager at a model company in charge of the decision to do this or not, I would DEFINITELY give it the thumbs down on the basis of a cost vs. returns analysis.
Yes, as a modeler, it would be great to see, but it doesn't make financial sense for a company trying to survive in a very competitive market where the consumers are already griping about the high cost of the product.
amegan
#243
Joined: March 21, 2008
KitMaker: 996 posts
AeroScale: 915 posts
Posted: Monday, July 20, 2009 - 10:24 AM UTC
Don't forget that somebody made money out of that Osprey book I just bought (Fokker DVII). Although I usually build OOB I often want to change the colour scheme, so far the one impossible thing I can't get is letter and number sets, particularly in yellow, but grey, red, black in common sizes would be nice. Railway modellers can get them but the only yellow set I could find was sold out
wombat58
Joined: March 26, 2009
KitMaker: 366 posts
AeroScale: 309 posts
Posted: Monday, July 20, 2009 - 07:29 PM UTC
I didn't say that the manufacturers should publish all the information on the net, I realise that would be cost prohibitive, all I was saying is that they should include the data with the kit, like what Wingnuts have done. The information Wingnuts included is good, albeit not 100%, but very useful to the modeller who wants to take the kit just that little bit further.
drabslab
Joined: September 28, 2004
KitMaker: 2,186 posts
AeroScale: 1,587 posts
Posted: Wednesday, July 22, 2009 - 06:00 AM UTC
hai,
You raise a number of very interesting points here (and you seem to know what you are talking about so lets go a bit deeper if you like.
I have quite a bit of experience in developing web based software as well and I do realise that only the sun is for free (and if not careful one may get skin cancer from it). ;-)
Big model manufacturers are working worldwide under lots of different legislations, and have to deal with complicated copyright issues, I am quite sure that they already have that expensive legal department.
Big model manufacturers already have a website, although not very good in most cases. To present a selected set of additional information about their products will give an extra cost but also extra publicity and customer service. Usually, good service leads to additional sales and profit.
If we follow your reasoning to avoid the possibility of any cost being transferred to us, the client, then we should also stop visiting Aeroscale (or any other modelling oriented website) because all these sites stay on the net thanks to publicity paid by model companies. These companies get their money back by selling kits with a slightly higher price (and the same goes if you are buying magazines which include publicity).
According to an article that I read, the turnover of the European operation of REVELL GMBH alone was more than USD $50 million back in 2002. This is not huge but still quite a bit of money. These are not poor companies.
Lets assume that a Revell kit is costing +/- 20 dollars in the detail market. Lets assume that Revell itself is getting half of this (10 dollars a kit). This would make that they sell each year 5 million kits.
A price increase of 10 cents (which would cost the client 25 cents a kit) would lead to a budget of 500 000 dollars a year. This can be seen as e.g. 5 full time persons working on the website.
I know that this reasoning is overall faulty but it gives a direction that a lot can be done without drastic price increases.
In my experience (and i have some very relevant experience in this domain) the worst thing that a company can do in a competitive market is to reduce quality and limit the service given to the customer to cut costs.
Its true, customers always complain about the cost but as a manufacturer you do not control cost because most of it does not depend on you but on the economical environment. When breaking down the total detail market price then 20% goes to taxes, 10% goes to the distribution network, ?? % goes to the local hobby store.. At the end the product itself is only a fraction of the price tagged to it.
Hence, a manufacturer should not concentrate on saving a few nicckels on the cost of the product, instead he should maximise the quality and service he can provide within the restrictions imposed on the company by market prices and forces.
phew, lets stop it here, work took over, i'm sorry
You raise a number of very interesting points here (and you seem to know what you are talking about so lets go a bit deeper if you like.
Quoted Text
Part of my job involves web publishing for a company.
trust me, you do not want to pay the extra amount your model is going to cost you to support the web presence and all the underlying stuff that would cost the model making company.
I have quite a bit of experience in developing web based software as well and I do realise that only the sun is for free (and if not careful one may get skin cancer from it). ;-)
Quoted Text
It is one thing to publish on the web as an individual - you are legally protected in many ways. However, once you start doing it as a company, you will literally be descended upon by lawsuits unless you have all your "i"s dotted and "t"s crossed. The first thing this means is employing legal division, who are going to get paid about 2 to 5 times as much as anyone else at the company.
Big model manufacturers are working worldwide under lots of different legislations, and have to deal with complicated copyright issues, I am quite sure that they already have that expensive legal department.
Quoted Text
Also means you have to have a web developer to maintain the site - another large expense if you don't want a bumbling fool doing it (which you don't). Also you now have to maintain servers with the info on them - and the IT guy who is doing that also does not come cheap either.
Of course, you can pay some other company a large wad of $$$ to do those things for you (except for that legal part, which you can't skimp on - costs way more to NOT have them), and most likely they'll do it wrong AND outsource it to some group in a developing country who doesn't really care and you never get to talk to directly except at 3am (ask me how i know).
Big model manufacturers already have a website, although not very good in most cases. To present a selected set of additional information about their products will give an extra cost but also extra publicity and customer service. Usually, good service leads to additional sales and profit.
Quoted Text
no matter how you slice it, that model just got a lot more expensive, and all you get out of it is some research that the you may or may not care about. And then also people who didn't buy the model get the benefit of the research too, which doesn't help the company much.
I figure either the modeler doesn't care much about research, or wants to do the research themselves (i'm the latter). While it might seem really cool to get a research packet available, I don't see it being a big boon too all that many people.
If we follow your reasoning to avoid the possibility of any cost being transferred to us, the client, then we should also stop visiting Aeroscale (or any other modelling oriented website) because all these sites stay on the net thanks to publicity paid by model companies. These companies get their money back by selling kits with a slightly higher price (and the same goes if you are buying magazines which include publicity).
Quoted Text
If was was the manager at a model company in charge of the decision to do this or not, I would DEFINITELY give it the thumbs down on the basis of a cost vs. returns analysis.
According to an article that I read, the turnover of the European operation of REVELL GMBH alone was more than USD $50 million back in 2002. This is not huge but still quite a bit of money. These are not poor companies.
Lets assume that a Revell kit is costing +/- 20 dollars in the detail market. Lets assume that Revell itself is getting half of this (10 dollars a kit). This would make that they sell each year 5 million kits.
A price increase of 10 cents (which would cost the client 25 cents a kit) would lead to a budget of 500 000 dollars a year. This can be seen as e.g. 5 full time persons working on the website.
I know that this reasoning is overall faulty but it gives a direction that a lot can be done without drastic price increases.
Quoted Text
Yes, as a modeler, it would be great to see, but it doesn't make financial sense for a company trying to survive in a very competitive market where the consumers are already griping about the high cost of the product.
In my experience (and i have some very relevant experience in this domain) the worst thing that a company can do in a competitive market is to reduce quality and limit the service given to the customer to cut costs.
Its true, customers always complain about the cost but as a manufacturer you do not control cost because most of it does not depend on you but on the economical environment. When breaking down the total detail market price then 20% goes to taxes, 10% goes to the distribution network, ?? % goes to the local hobby store.. At the end the product itself is only a fraction of the price tagged to it.
Hence, a manufacturer should not concentrate on saving a few nicckels on the cost of the product, instead he should maximise the quality and service he can provide within the restrictions imposed on the company by market prices and forces.
phew, lets stop it here, work took over, i'm sorry
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