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Spade grip cocking handles
JackFlash
Joined: January 25, 2004
KitMaker: 11,669 posts
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Posted: Sunday, September 05, 2010 - 09:34 AM UTC
Just a head's up to all who are building Albatros D. fighters. The spade grip cocking handles found in kits of any scale are inaccurate. These were only on (1918) aircraft from Schwerin Fokker factory. Specifically all D.VII and E.V / D.VIII Spandau machine guns. Stocks were purchased from Fokker by LFG Roland for their D.VIa & b versions too.
RAGIII
Joined: June 19, 2007
KitMaker: 604 posts
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Posted: Monday, September 06, 2010 - 09:09 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Just a head's up to all who are building Albatros D. fighters. The spade grip cocking handles found in kits of any scale are inaccurate. These were only on (1918) aircraft from Schwerin Fokker factory. Specifically all D.VII and E.V / D.VIII Spandau machine guns. Stocks were purchased from Fokker by LFG Roland for their D.VIa & b versions too.
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Stephen,
This is obviously a subject that lights your fire so to speak as you have mentioned it in several build blogs
I am in danger of doing the same as many others and just using the parts supplied
Do you have a good picture of what we need to do to replace the kit supplied part? I have looked through my Data Files etc. and do not seem to have what I need.
RAGIII
JackFlash
Joined: January 25, 2004
KitMaker: 11,669 posts
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Posted: Monday, September 06, 2010 - 10:55 AM UTC
Thanks Rick,
In their zeal to fill up empty areas in PE frets manufacturers give us parts that are simply not germain to the specific subject. That is why prime references are so critical to good builds. In this case simply leave the part off and save it for a PE set for the Fokker D.VII / E.V - D.VIII.
Remember this old thread?
PE machine guns.
Note the general arrangement here. The cocking handles for the Albatros were inside the cockpit in the form of "T" bars or rods with "O" rings welded at their ends
In their zeal to fill up empty areas in PE frets manufacturers give us parts that are simply not germain to the specific subject. That is why prime references are so critical to good builds. In this case simply leave the part off and save it for a PE set for the Fokker D.VII / E.V - D.VIII.
Remember this old thread?
PE machine guns.
Note the general arrangement here. The cocking handles for the Albatros were inside the cockpit in the form of "T" bars or rods with "O" rings welded at their ends
thegirl
Joined: January 19, 2008
KitMaker: 6,743 posts
AeroScale: 6,151 posts
Posted: Monday, September 06, 2010 - 11:31 AM UTC
It's always nice to have a reminder of these small detail items we over see at times .
Thanks for the refresher Stephen
Thanks for the refresher Stephen
RAGIII
Joined: June 19, 2007
KitMaker: 604 posts
AeroScale: 600 posts
Posted: Monday, September 06, 2010 - 11:37 AM UTC
Thanks Stephen! So the short answer is JUST LEAVE the HANDLES OFF?
RAGIII
RAGIII
thegirl
Joined: January 19, 2008
KitMaker: 6,743 posts
AeroScale: 6,151 posts
Posted: Monday, September 06, 2010 - 12:07 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Thanks Stephen! So the short answer is JUST LEAVE the HANDLES OFF?
RAGIII
Yup , just leave them off . Save them for Fokker D.VII / D.VIII .
Kornbeef
Joined: November 06, 2005
KitMaker: 1,667 posts
AeroScale: 1,551 posts
Posted: Monday, September 06, 2010 - 07:54 PM UTC
If your Building the WNW DVa go to page 26 of the booklet and theres a great shot there. If not got to the archive pics for the DVa kit on WNWs website and see it there. It shows enough of the alternative cocking asssys to make detailing easy enuff.
Keith.
Keith.
OEFFAG_153
Joined: February 19, 2010
KitMaker: 1,473 posts
AeroScale: 1,450 posts
Posted: Monday, September 06, 2010 - 09:09 PM UTC
– Thank You Stephen for the heads up on the cockinghandles, I haven't started the machineguns yet, so this was timely info indeed.
Also Thank You Keith – I'll have a look at p. 26 when I get to the guns.
Best Regards
Mikael
Also Thank You Keith – I'll have a look at p. 26 when I get to the guns.
Best Regards
Mikael
JackFlash
Joined: January 25, 2004
KitMaker: 11,669 posts
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Posted: Monday, September 05, 2011 - 04:16 PM UTC
Just bringing this up for a fellow modeler.
CaptnTommy
Joined: October 26, 2009
KitMaker: 424 posts
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Posted: Monday, September 12, 2011 - 04:30 AM UTC
Yes... Thanks for the info.
All my knowledge and references and I have never seen or thought of the cocking method. One should never assume, and one should always ask for information.
Thanks
Captn Tommy
All my knowledge and references and I have never seen or thought of the cocking method. One should never assume, and one should always ask for information.
Thanks
Captn Tommy
JackFlash
Joined: January 25, 2004
KitMaker: 11,669 posts
AeroScale: 11,011 posts
Posted: Monday, September 12, 2011 - 11:59 PM UTC
In a recent correspondence this was offered.
While I see your point - you do realize I am speaking that it was originally a Fokker factory design & installation. Units had their own armourys and could swap guns as needed. We know that Roland purchased 4 colour fabric from Fokker why not other components? He was after all a salesman. From the factory the cocking handles were a Fokker Schwerin product and on all of their machines beginning with the Fokker D.VII production. You won't see them on any of the Albatros D.I - Va. That was the beginning of this thread.
Quoted Text
". . .I think you need to loosen up on your LMG 08/15 "spade" cocking handle position. Elsewhere you have stated that only Schwerin built Fokker D.VII and E.V/D.VIII had these. You have now amended this a little bit, conceding that Roland D.VI were also fitted with them . . . But it is also true that many Albatros and OAW built D.VII types had these and some Pfalz D.XII too (reference 1441/18, 2666/18, 2624/18 and Hans Holle's machine in Datafile 41. Also 2690/18 in Datafile 146 and 2670/18 in Jack Herris's book as well as 2695/18".
While I see your point - you do realize I am speaking that it was originally a Fokker factory design & installation. Units had their own armourys and could swap guns as needed. We know that Roland purchased 4 colour fabric from Fokker why not other components? He was after all a salesman. From the factory the cocking handles were a Fokker Schwerin product and on all of their machines beginning with the Fokker D.VII production. You won't see them on any of the Albatros D.I - Va. That was the beginning of this thread.
Jamo_kiwi
Joined: November 04, 2008
KitMaker: 123 posts
AeroScale: 122 posts
Posted: Friday, September 16, 2011 - 09:33 AM UTC
In the HGW photo etched set for the Pfalz D.III/D.IIIa they provide a different type of cocking handle.
Are these correct for machine guns fitted to the Pfalz D.III/D.IIIa?
Also, part 13, what exactly is this part that HGW are saying to add?
Are these correct for machine guns fitted to the Pfalz D.III/D.IIIa?
Also, part 13, what exactly is this part that HGW are saying to add?
JackFlash
Joined: January 25, 2004
KitMaker: 11,669 posts
AeroScale: 11,011 posts
Posted: Friday, September 16, 2011 - 05:02 PM UTC
Greetings James,
From the factory - no. Here is a diagram of the Pfalz D.III from1917.
Spade grip cocking handles did not start showing up until the spring 1918 on the Fokker D.VII. Part 13 is supposed to be (an ammo) round counter, again something that did not show up until early 1918. The caveat being these items could have been added at the unit level in the armoury after early 1918.
From the factory - no. Here is a diagram of the Pfalz D.III from1917.
Spade grip cocking handles did not start showing up until the spring 1918 on the Fokker D.VII. Part 13 is supposed to be (an ammo) round counter, again something that did not show up until early 1918. The caveat being these items could have been added at the unit level in the armoury after early 1918.
Kornbeef
Joined: November 06, 2005
KitMaker: 1,667 posts
AeroScale: 1,551 posts
Posted: Friday, September 16, 2011 - 07:09 PM UTC
James,
Part 13 is an attempt to show one of the variants of ammo counter and the later mechanism at the back of the gun breech, The counter was hardly a flat plate, there would be a casing behind, not hard to add a bit of square stock (Usually though these were round as Stephen pointed out),
On the subject of the Pfalz D.IIIa I think this explains the half widscreen so the pilot could reach the left Maxim to free it if it jammed, I can't see another logical reason.
This might help with Machine gun questions/issues
http://www.finemodelworks.com/arizona-models/reference/Thumbs/Aircraft_Fittings/Machine_Guns/Machine_Guns.html
Keith
Part 13 is an attempt to show one of the variants of ammo counter and the later mechanism at the back of the gun breech, The counter was hardly a flat plate, there would be a casing behind, not hard to add a bit of square stock (Usually though these were round as Stephen pointed out),
On the subject of the Pfalz D.IIIa I think this explains the half widscreen so the pilot could reach the left Maxim to free it if it jammed, I can't see another logical reason.
This might help with Machine gun questions/issues
http://www.finemodelworks.com/arizona-models/reference/Thumbs/Aircraft_Fittings/Machine_Guns/Machine_Guns.html
Keith
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