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Tamiya Il-2: Comparison to AM and actual.
GastonMarty
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Posted: Thursday, May 03, 2012 - 01:47 PM UTC
To establish the correct proportion of the Tamiya windscreen in this photo, I outlined the faint hint done by Tamiya of the losange-shaped reinforcement "wire" within the glass: The apparent "frame" on the right of the image is actually the more rearward frame seen through the Tamiya windscreen, and the red lines show the actual windscreen outlines.



Accurate Miniatures kit vs the Tamiya kit at the same angle:




Of note is that the more curved intake lip on top of the Tamiya cowling appears more correct, as does the less flat overall appearance of the cowl's top. The AM kit has a separate nose in its part breakdown, and this is significant as the prop and spinner are also much inferior to the Tamiya offerings, and may be troublesome to adapt to another nose given the way the spinner is overlapped by the nose armor...

This is how the Accurate Miniatures windscreen compares to the real aircraft's proportions:






I think it's pretty clear the Tamiya kit's clear parts are a spectacular disaster: However, the nose upper intake and probably the overall nose shape might be significantly better, and grafting this, if the cross-section allows this, will make using the far better Tamiya prop and spinner much easier given the overlapping armor over the spinner's base.

It seems likely to me the clear parts are far too different to be adapted neatly from the AM kit to the Tamiya fuselage: The difference is so great it would require alsmost the entire glass difference to be just vertical for the subtitution to be possible: It is far more likely to be a compound difference of width and heigth. This is so large even the Tamiya nose could need some serious changes to fit the AM fuselage.

Given that the clear parts are the focal point of any aircraft model, this is one of the worst new releases in recent memory, and compares to the Great Wall's P-61 initial canopy... Tamiya really outdid themselves this time, as this is even worse than their Fi-156...

I doubt that, even with heavy modifications, an even moderately accurate kit of the Il-2 can be built without the majority of the pieces coming from the now newly excellent Accurate Miniatures kit... This is simply outside the realm of serious kits as Hasegawa used to do in this scale.

Gaston







sweaver
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Posted: Thursday, May 03, 2012 - 01:57 PM UTC
Very interesting study there, Gaston. Thanks for sharing.

I just bought the AM Il-2 a few weeks ago after wanting to build it for a long time. Now I'm curious....is the Il-2 that's coming out here soon (I believe it's Academy?) any different from the original AM kit? Nothing changed?
redcap
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Posted: Thursday, May 03, 2012 - 02:17 PM UTC
Interesting notes re the alleged canopy issues Gaston. Yet, given it's a 'Tamiya mistake' there will be a multitude of excuses or leaping to their defence about "no such thing as a perfect model...blah blah" in the model magazines press and on sites such as this.

YET, had "Trumpeter" or "Hobby Boss" done it (remember the 1/32 Trumpeter Wildcat canopy / spine issues which all but destroyed sales of the kit), we would never hear the last of it and the kit would be written off as a waste of time without any balance given to the positives.

'Just saying' that's all and not trying to start a flame war.

Gary
ejasonk
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Posted: Thursday, May 03, 2012 - 06:13 PM UTC
Sort of unfair comparison.

You compare AM kit photo with a kitphoto from Tamiya. You think that it's the right angle,but there a differences to look at the screen or real model.
Then you compare the kit in your hands with photos of the real a/c. But you didn't yet had the Tamiya kit in your hands.
You also make a mistake in marking the window framing,the right way i see is there:



For me it looks ok.
Merlin
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Posted: Thursday, May 03, 2012 - 08:09 PM UTC

Quoted Text

I doubt that, even with heavy modifications, an even moderately accurate kit of the Il-2 can be built without the majority of the pieces coming from the now newly excellent Accurate Miniatures kit... Gaston



Hi Gaston

How is the Accurate Miniatures kit "now newly excellent"? It hasn't changed, has it? I've always thought it excellent, except for the propeller and spinner.

All the best

Rowan
GastonMarty
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Posted: Thursday, May 03, 2012 - 08:13 PM UTC
Yes Evgenji, I realize now I made a very slight inclusion of the slanted side panel, creating a sort of "extension" to the impression of width, but the actual amount is not quite as much as you outline (the frame you show is a sort of refraction of the front left frame of the SLIDING canopy in the open position behind, seen by transparency: I initially took it be the windscreen's left rear frame, which is why I wrongly thought it could not be adding width by an outside "slant"): The clue is the shape of the plastic forming the base of the windscreen: You can actually see the "corner" where the base sharply bends, which I missed.

This new image outline I made below is the probably closer, and it shows the amount I mistakenly added is actually quite small:



Gaston

P.S. As for the excellence of the Accurate Miniatures kit, my complaints about it were mainly that it was difficult to assemble. Also a poor prop is a big issue for this subject, as I don't 100% trust thin (and then scrapped even thinner) resin correction blades to stay straight over the long run... This aircraft (as many inline engine types) is likely not a model that would look good with the spinner displayed as "spinning" without blades (unlike other types, and most radials), so a bad prop is a big problem, which the Tamiya kit will fix now...

G.
eclarson
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Posted: Friday, May 04, 2012 - 05:47 AM UTC
The only spectacular disaster I see here is another pathetic attempt to bash Tamiya by comparing a single, fuzzy, distorted photo of a pre-production build to fuzzy distorted photos on a computer monitor.

Looking at the forward windscreen on Brett's recent build posted on HS, particularly the last photo, and comparing it to good views of the real plane, I'd say Tamiya nailed it.

http://www.hyperscale.com/2012/features/il2tamiyabuild48bg_1.htm

Compare to middle photo, second row, here.

http://vvs.hobbyvista.com/Research/Ilyushin/Il-2/Walkround/Serbia/

Cheers,
Eric
mr_peabody
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Posted: Friday, May 04, 2012 - 06:14 AM UTC
I prefer to look at a clearer photo of the windscreen from Hyperscale:



The blurriness of the photos at the start of the thread distorts the actual shape of the "lozenge". I also cannot tell what the "lozenge" looks like from the shots of the computer monitor.

I'll reserve judgement until I see the real thing.
GastonMarty
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Posted: Friday, May 04, 2012 - 10:51 AM UTC

Quoted Text

The only spectacular disaster I see here is another pathetic attempt to bash Tamiya by comparing a single, fuzzy, distorted photo of a pre-production build to fuzzy distorted photos on a computer monitor.

Looking at the forward windscreen on Brett's recent build posted on HS, particularly the last photo, and comparing it to good views of the real plane, I'd say Tamiya nailed it.

http://www.hyperscale.com/2012/features/il2tamiyabuild48bg_1.htm

Compare to middle photo, second row, here.

http://vvs.hobbyvista.com/Research/Ilyushin/Il-2/Walkround/Serbia/

Cheers,
Eric



Sorry Eric: I looked at the walkaround's second row middle photo, and Brett Green's last photo, and I don't agree. The discrepancy is still quite apparent if you look at the overall impression of "tallness" of the windscreen compared to the expanse of nose deck ahead...

If you match the viewpoint angles closely, which is what I tried to do by using the AM kit as an "intermediary" comparison, the result is nothing short of disastrous for the Tamiya kit: The problem was immediately visible even in the very first and very poor cellphone photos, when a photo the "Flying Heritage" Il-2 happened to sort of approximate the cellphone photo angle...

This new kit cannot in any way compare to the Accurate Miniatures kit in accuracy, that's all there is to it. I do remember four years ago placing the AM's Il-2 in my top ten list of most accurate kits (before I tried to build it though, but that didn't count on that list).

On a more cheerful note, there is yet more good news on the Accurate Miniatures side of the issue: the Accurate Miniature's too flat upper intake lip is very correctable, and otherwise the AM kit matches this profile photo remarkably well:



The position of the Accurate Miniatures intake's upper lip is slightly too far forward, and it is also not rounded enough on the top: Fortunately this is easy to fix by carving the upper intake lip back 1.5 mm, which seems to make the inside splitters/shutters more correctly closer to the opening as well!

The AM kit's lack of roundness of the intake top lip cross-section will simply be corrected by putty, which will then be carved into a slightly sharper curve at the lip. This allows staying within the profile photo easily: The AM nose is otherwise very accurate: This is very important as the AM nose piece includes part of the wingroot (something I overlooked), and this makes the idea of easily kit-bashing the whole Tamiya nose unto the AM kit very unlikely...

Of note is that minus the upper intake lip's 1.5 mm too far forward position, the AM kit otherwise matches the profile photo extremely well.

The only things that will be needed from the Tamiya kit now will be the prop, spinner, and hopefully a better rear machine gun! A big relief! :

Gaston
Baileyface
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Posted: Monday, May 07, 2012 - 04:28 AM UTC
Gaston, dude, really?!

Let go mate, it's not important. Honestly, there are much bigger things to worry about.

Just what did Tamiya do to you!

genehall
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Posted: Monday, May 07, 2012 - 06:37 AM UTC
genehall
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Posted: Monday, May 07, 2012 - 06:48 AM UTC
I agree with the point that too much time is spent on accuracy issues. What is most bothersome to me is the how much Tamiya will be asking for it. You can get an A.M IL 2/3 kit for a song these days. I’d rather go with the A.M. bird than spend an excessive amount of money on Tamiya’s release. My opinion only.
Tojo72
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Posted: Monday, May 07, 2012 - 08:27 AM UTC
If it looks like an IL-2 on my shelf,I'm happy.
DougN1
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Posted: Saturday, May 12, 2012 - 01:09 AM UTC
I'm sorry but this kind of comparison is useless for all practical purposes. So many compounded errors are induced in using photos from a monitor, a kit part and wartime photos since the angles cannot be made exactly the same, and the variation in camera lenses and finally distance from the subject when taking said photos prohibits an exact comparison as Gaston likes to think he can do.

If one had the time, energy and inclination (which I don't), one could make a set of photos match any kit part if one chose to do so.

Now if one likes to create a tempest in a teacup (aka trolling), then this kind of comparison is great for that purpose.

Doug
RYSZARD
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Posted: Saturday, May 12, 2012 - 02:51 AM UTC

Maybe something like this will help

http://yoyosims.pl/il2wdetalach.html

Jessie_C
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Posted: Saturday, May 12, 2012 - 03:33 AM UTC
The Academy kit is made from the AM moulds. The plastic will be the same.
GastonMarty
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Posted: Monday, May 14, 2012 - 07:43 AM UTC


Some new developments on the Il-2 kit...

I spotted a new huge error in the radius of the Tamiya wingroot, which you can see roughly outlined here as well (and that AM also got right):







Jeez, what a marvel of precision engineering... Thank God for the "outdated" Accurate Miniatures kit...

The AM kit has problems of its own though, but mostly they are ignored in Brett Green's utterly biaised comparative. More on that later. Here is what I have found:


Brett is of course quite happy to point out the Accurate Miniature's upper intake lip is too flat (but ignores that it is also slightly too long by about 1.5 mm). He does not point out the issue is much easier to fix than the deluge of major errors on the Tamiya kit: It took me less than hour to shorten by 1.5 mm and then correct the only noticeable outline error of the AM kit:




The cross-section curvature here is slightly exaggerated, and has been toned down since...

There are indeed assembly issues with dihedral and dihedral symmetry on the AM kit...:



I have found that by trimming a little the top of the right wing root fairing, and the right wing rear contact areas, the dihedral symmetry can be improved:




The wings want to build too flat as well, and so stress bending of the right wing helps restore both symmetry and the correct (slight) dihedral: Unfortunately, the ventral intake will look a tiny bit "tilted" out of alignment when this is done, but a very small amount of scraping on its underside and mouth will easily restore its symmetrical appearance. (Note the stress mark on the right spar):



Virtually all the AM Il-2s I have seen built do not solve the symmetry problem, or solve it by the easier solution of lowering the left wing to match symmetrically the too-low right wing: This results in a far too flat dihedral on some amazing builds, unfortunately... The Il-2's dihedral is so mild this type of error has unfortunately severe consequences on the appearance of the model, whose wings will typically tend to look like they are pointing down...

You might want to remove these weird rectagular plates below the fuselage at cockpit level, and put them in the wings right away, to make assembly easier and more "normal".



The CMK cocpit provides a bit of detail, but proved a nighmare to fit: Avoid using the pilot sidewalls, or use their details after detaching them...

Waiting expectantly to buy Tamiya's Il-2 for the prop, spinner, much better rear gun(!), and a few other small items like the wheels, their doors or even their struts maybe... I fully expect everything else will prove unuseable...

And when I get it, unlike Brett Green, I will not put the two kit windshields at different angles on different photos, but at the same square angle on one image... And I will also provide their comparative dimensions, which of course he didn't do.

I have a spare Accurate Miniatures single seater (whose straight wings I borrowed for my build), so those two kit cross-sections will be compared by cuttting accross as well, while I am at it, as some of the problems appear to be in the fuselage, not just the clear parts.

Gaston
SunburntPenguin
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Posted: Monday, May 14, 2012 - 05:29 PM UTC
What has Tamiya done in the past to upset you so much, Gaston?

Your one tracked personal search for scale perfection is unbelievable.

Wasn't it Don Quixote who went tilting at windmills?

Please, please give us a rest from your overly pedantic need to find fault in every kit that you seem to be able to compare to pictures alone.

The Brett Green article on Hyperscale was worth the read in my book, maybe you're upset that you seem to be in the minority with your opinion of this kit.

Asking for 100% accuracy is an impossibility, just get on with building the kit, when you get it, and enjoy that.
Merlin
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Posted: Monday, May 14, 2012 - 09:59 PM UTC
Hi Gaston

Nice job creating the curved lip to the intake. It'd be useful to a lot of people to show how you made that correction.

I was mystified, though, by your comments about the lack of symmetry in the wings, because it's something I don't remember from building the AM kit. Anyway, I couldn't resist opening the Italeri re-box and wasting a few minutes dry-fitting the the fuselage and wings. There's certainly no issue with the starboard wing sitting low in my kit, but maybe it's a result of your cross-kitting the straight wings to the 2-seater fuselage? I'll have to dig the single-seater out of the Stash one day and see if it's an issue there.

Sadly, what is a bit of a pain in my Italeri Il-2 (which wasn't true in the original kits I've built) is a bit of warping with the upper and lower port wing panels. Hardly the end of the world, but irritating nevertheless.

It does seem rather extravagant, to say the least, to buy the Tamiya kit simply to nick the propeller and a few other items for your AM build! I'd simply fit Sergey's excellent propeller and save a lot of money.

As regards comparing the cross-sections, why not use a profile guage (or even take casts with modelling clay)? It makes much more sense than butchering two perfectly innocent kits - one of which, at least, you think is good.

All the best

Rowan
GastonMarty
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Posted: Tuesday, May 15, 2012 - 07:49 AM UTC
Hi Rowan,

The "good" AM single seater kit cannot be salvaged because its wings were borrowed, so cutting it up is no great loss... Neither is the Tamiya kit whose propeller will be gone, as well as a few other items.

Resin props are typically offered as separate blade items, and try as I might I have never been able to assemble separate blade props to my satisfaction, plastic or resin, but especially not when using resin (though I came closest to success with Vector resin props, because of the extreme precision in the moulding pin-hole fit and alignment)...

The alignment is especially hard on 3 blade props compared to 4 blade props, and for this reason my Monogram P-38, whose one-piece props leave a lot to be desired, will not be able to use either the Academy or Hasegawa props, and will be represented with its spinners spinning bladeless... (The Hasegawa kit will provide its clear parts to the Monogram kit -severely adapted for the completely different shape of the rear fixed part, but feasable- and Academy will also provide some parts like the turbochargers etc: They cannot compare to the 1964 vintage Monogram kit for outline accuracy, despite the Monogram's 3 mm shortfall in span, and so are not a great loss either...)

The Tamiya Il-2 prop IS a one-piece prop, and that beats any other consideration, as the Il-2 would not look good with a bladeless spinning spinner (neither does the Me-109G: Some types look OK done like that, especailly radials, some don't, more often inlines with smooth "unstepped" nose contours).

Several parts may be borrowed from the Tamiya Il-2, so it is not that extravagant...

The upper intake lip was done by carving the Accurate Miniatures opening 1.5 mm back, then building up the putty in thin layers (as thick layers will melt the plastic): The curve was gradually increased by shaping the putty still "wet" with a large number of clean #11 blades, which are good for shaping wet putty "clean" only once each... About 12-20 blades were used..

The opening was then thinned from the inside by cutting into the dried, but not yet fully hard (10-20 min) white putty with a yet another bunch of fresh #11 blades: At the extreme lip edge there is no plastic, only putty, but putty can be surprisingly resilient, even without support, when it is fully dry. I have found Tamiya's white putty to be less brittle than their gray putty when used like this, and it has also much less of a smell. The only advantage of the gray putty is on extremely thin application, where its colour give the impression of feathering better, or at least of doing so in a more controlled manner: I hardly ever use the Tamiya gray putty anymore except for filling very minor flaws, or over paint to level out small depressions...

The issue of dihedral symmetry has plagued my previous builds of the Il-2, but I wasn't aware of it at the time as I probably did what most everybody else did and, consciously or not, emphasized a slight drop to the left wing in my glueing.

The real problem then appears in that this model wants to build with a dihedral too flat or even "negative", at least for the top surface of the wings: This is a severe problem of this model that ruined my previous attempts at buiding it: I always knew its accuracy was otherwise excellent.

Here is a graphic example of negative wingtop dihedral on a model most of us can only dream about building to such a level (model by Ricardo Rodrigez):



Just to give you an idea of what level of building we are talking about here:




The Il-2's wing top outlines should not even be straight and true: They should have a slight amount of dihedral themselves, despite the wing taper, or the kit will look wrong: I am almost sure the real aircraft did not have simply flat wingtops, and the kit looks wrong even if a lot of serious bending succeeds in achieving flat wingtops: Only a newly found method of shaving off the top of the right wing's "karman" (wingroot fairing), and carving heavily the rear of the right wing's bearing surfaces, provided a solution. This still required a heavy assymetrical emphasis in wing bending, heavily tilted towards the right wing... But the ventral radiator now looked a bit tilted and so had to be carved on its right bottom outside surface (and a little inside its mouth) to match the now more tilted right wing. I am happy with the result now.

My failure at building the AM kit's dihedral was why I was initially very glad to see Tamiya release an Il-2: I never could have imagined that after 44 months of NO all-new WWII aircraft release in that scale, they would come up with such a monstrosity. This is why I initially dismissed the odd impression the cellphone photos made...

Gaston





Merlin
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Posted: Tuesday, May 15, 2012 - 09:27 AM UTC
Hi Gaston

I have to admit I find it quite ironic that someone who's not afraid to do radical surgery on kits at a level many of us would baulk at is fazed by prop alignment. It's actually really easy to set the blades consistently with the aid of a simple jig.

Many thanks for the explanation of how you tackled the intake. I'll definitely have a go at modifying it too when I build the AM/Italeri kit.

I think we're talking at cross purposes on the symmetry problem; I thought you meant the starboard wing was set physically too low against the fuselage - not that it's essential to ensure identical dihedral on both wings. (Unfortunately, notwithstanding the absolutely wonderful finish, the example you show does look sorely lacking in dihedral - symmetrical or otherwise...)

I have to say I think you're in danger of exaggerating any problems with the Tamiya kit. Going from "everything looks good" to "monstrosity" is quite a dramatic about face. I won't hold it against you, but I ordered my kit from HLJ partly on the basis of your enthusiastic first report...

All the best

Rowan
tinbanger
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Posted: Tuesday, May 15, 2012 - 12:26 PM UTC
Hi Gaston.
I have re-read some of your kit reviews and a common comment
from you is about canopy shape/fit,B52 hull to narrow etc.
If you find main stream kits so bad start casting you own.
I like Jessicas reviews if it looks like the plan you want to build that should be good enough, build it enjoy the hobby,
Mecenas
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Posted: Wednesday, May 16, 2012 - 06:08 AM UTC
If we talk about accuracy here's something special to discuss: another forthcoming Il-2. Let's start with discussing the windscreen issues.



More pictures, including in-progress, can be found here.
eclarson
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Posted: Wednesday, May 16, 2012 - 06:55 AM UTC
There are some obvious bar-code alignment issues. I suspect the dihedral of the wings is off too.



Cheers,
Eric

tinbanger
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Posted: Wednesday, May 16, 2012 - 09:01 AM UTC
Great link!
Bar codes LOL

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