World War II
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Tamiya Il-2: Comparison to AM and actual.
tinbanger
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Posted: Wednesday, May 16, 2012 - 09:22 AM UTC

Quoted Text

If we talk about accuracy here's something special to discuss: another forthcoming Il-2. Let's start with discussing the windscreen issues.



More pictures, including in-progress, can be found here.


I think that this is a I1-2 Tailskomoff
SunburntPenguin
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Posted: Wednesday, May 16, 2012 - 02:13 PM UTC
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but shouldn't the barcodes all be aligned?
mrockhill
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Posted: Wednesday, May 16, 2012 - 02:45 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but shouldn't the barcodes all be aligned?



Depends, If it was made by factory 16 or factory 184 they would be aligned. However, because factory 91 was close to the front, No care was taken in the alignment of the bar codes...
IainArt
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Posted: Wednesday, May 16, 2012 - 10:25 PM UTC
What is wrong with the AM kit is that the dihedral on the top surface should start outboard of the centre section, not from the centre line. Bending the centre section to increase the dihedral is wrong.

Technically, there is dihedral on the centre section but the top surface appears flat when viewed from in front; the dihedral of the outboard wing sections is greater than that of the centre section so there is a change in angle of both the lower and upper surfaces when compared to the CS.

The correct way to improve the appearance is to saw off the outboard section of the top wing halves, assemble the wing in three sections and join the outboard sections at the correct angle.
AussieReg
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Posted: Wednesday, May 16, 2012 - 10:50 PM UTC

Quoted Text

If we talk about accuracy here's something special to discuss: another forthcoming Il-2. Let's start with discussing the windscreen issues.



More pictures, including in-progress, can be found here.



Michal, I think that the windscreen is perfectly proportioned on this kit. The fatal flaw is on the starboard wing, third barcode in from the tip, second row from the front. The the fourth digit should be a "7" on this variant, not a "6". I for one will definitely not be purchasing this kit until they get it right !

Cheers, D
GastonMarty
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Posted: Thursday, May 17, 2012 - 05:52 AM UTC

Quoted Text

What is wrong with the AM kit is that the dihedral on the top surface should start outboard of the centre section, not from the centre line. Bending the centre section to increase the dihedral is wrong.

Technically, there is dihedral on the centre section but the top surface appears flat when viewed from in front; the dihedral of the outboard wing sections is greater than that of the centre section so there is a change in angle of both the lower and upper surfaces when compared to the CS.

The correct way to improve the appearance is to saw off the outboard section of the top wing halves, assemble the wing in three sections and join the outboard sections at the correct angle.



The solution you describe would do nothing to solve the AM kit's dihedral symmetry problem, which absolutely requires doing something to increase the dihedral of the right side of the center wing section (and to look even remotely plausible, some much smaller amount of dihedral should be added to the left side as well)...

As far as the dihedral being noticeably different from the center wing section to the outer wing section, maybe that is true for the swept wing version (though I am a little sceptical, as I cannot see it) but it is completely invisible on the straight wing versions: Telling people to cut up their kits to achieve this non-existent, or nearly invisible, effect is clearly bad advice for the straight-wing versions: Building the AM is difficult enough as it is...:



The entire aircraft wing clearly looks here as though it has a significant dihedral, and this dihedral looks unbroken overall even in the way the wing leading edge separation is painted.

If you have achieved a better look on your model by doing what you say on a straight-wing version, I would certainly like to see it...



Here, on this other straight-wing version, no break of any kind is visible on the top or bottom surface of the wing, and yet there is a significant overall impression of dihedral in the previous photo: I wonder how flat the top of the central wing section could be to give this unbroken dihedral appearance...

If your perception is so delicate that a single-step dihedral looks wrong on a straight-wing version, the Tamiya kit's overall appearance should send you straight to the emergency room...

Gaston

KosachevSergey
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Russia
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Posted: Thursday, May 17, 2012 - 06:26 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Here, on this other straight-wing version,



This is a swept wing Il, as far as I know, there is no preserved straight wing Il-2.

Sergey.
IainArt
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Posted: Thursday, May 17, 2012 - 09:44 PM UTC

If your perception is so delicate that a single-step dihedral looks wrong on a straight-wing version, the Tamiya kit's overall appearance should send you straight to the emergency room...

Gaston

[/quote]

I don't get as wound up as you do about model kit manufacturers and I correct any details that I feel are significant enough to warrant correction. If manufacturers produced their drawings from photographs in the way that you use them as "proof", then you would have something to obsess about.

The information I posted was not derived from drawing red lines on photographs. The change in angle of the top surface is indeed very subtle but it is enough to give the correct dihedral. If you insist in interpreting photographs as your sole reference, it is little wonder that you come to some bizarre conclusions.

Instead of simply looking at photographs and making blanket condemnations, it would be better if you did some real research and get some black and white manufacturers dimensions, etc., to confirm the facts concerning your suspicions.
macplus
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Posted: Thursday, May 17, 2012 - 10:07 PM UTC
Shturmovik's had almost no dihedral, around 1.5 to 2.5 degrees, wings were quite flat, almost constant from the wing root to the tip of the wing, the AM kit actually looks quite close as is, to make things easier while building the model try gluing each nose half to their own fuselage side before assembling both fuselage halves, also try to glue the wing tops to the fuselage before using the center part. OTOH the Tamiya kit looks quite spot on and accurate, Brett Green just posted his built and painted example at Hyperscale and it is a beauty; sadly Gaston Marty's as usual pedantically speaks like an expert but has little knowledge on the subject (as Sergey just proved) and jumps to bash a kit (that he doesn't even have or seen), with his funny, questionable ways of research, fine for him but posting poor and unrealistic information on a public forum is not discussing the subject but a selfish way to confuse modelers who really want to know the truth or just might want to give the new kit a try. FWIW my sources for the dihedral are the 4+ publications on the Il-2 by Michal Ovcacik and Karel Susa and the Monografie Locnicze 22 by R. Michulec.
HTH
TheModeller
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Posted: Friday, May 18, 2012 - 04:14 AM UTC
Really got to question your photo-analysis 'skills' Gaston, such as they are!



The upper surface dihedral break is subtle but if you look properly you'll see its just outboard of that fellows right foot. I can see it, why can't you? Its your picture!

Why you've attempted to highlight the leading edge of the opposite wing, which is clearly distorted due to both angle and perspective at the very least, is beyond me, its not the dihedral line of the wing, its not even close to the dihedral line of the wing.

I don't know the minutia of IL-2 lore but I can interpret a picture far more accurately than you seem able to do while demonstrating that you are wrong at the same time!

I'm in agreement with Ron (macplus) your knowledge of specific types is questionable, your image analysis skills, that you rely on so much to prove you are right, are questionable and as a result your conclusions about what is right and wrong with so many kits you lambast are equally questionable.

Don't get me wrong Gaston, I'd much rather know about potential faults with a new kit, helps me make my mind up whether to spend my hard earned cash or not. But I much prefer it if the information is shared once the kit is actually in your hands, not supposed and surmised and guessed at from a few randomly culled images from Google!

The few times you've actually scored a goal with one of your rants are far outweighed by the number of times you are wrong in your conclusions. Wrong because of inadequate knowledge, poor research and the afore-mentioned habit of dragging dubious pictures off the Internet and trying to pass them off as proof of your opinion!
tinbanger
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Posted: Friday, May 18, 2012 - 06:09 AM UTC
Has anybody noticed that the plane in the photo has the little known "short under carrige"?
EdgarBrooks
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Posted: Friday, May 18, 2012 - 08:23 AM UTC
Like Les, I was intrigued at the use of the (half-invisible) port wing, so decided to look at the more-available starboard wing/centre-section. Try as I might (and I've had eight goes at it) I am totally unable to draw a straight line from wingroot to wingtip. If I follow the centre-line of the leading edge, it shoots off at 1-2 degrees, in the area of the landing light (? I believe,) but, if I go straight from the wingtip-to-wing join line to the centre of the wingroot, it goes up onto the wing's upper surface. If someone can show me how to draw a straight line, along the leading edge, without it bending (and without using a thick crayon,) I'll be very interested to see it.
Fairly indistinct, on the top photo there are two divergent lines, while there is just a singleton on the lower image.
Take a copy of the photo, any of you, and see how you fare, because I'm flaked out with it.

Edgar
Jessie_C
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Posted: Friday, May 18, 2012 - 08:46 AM UTC
Are we taking into account the rather large possibility of combat damage to this aircraft? Even though the right wing does not look visibly damaged from this angle, it's possible that it is in fact bent from when the aircraft crash-landed. I'd much rather be playing detective using an intact airframe sitting on its wheels the way it's designed to sit. Even better would be a photograph taken down the wing from the wingtip. If anything would show dihedral, that would.

The whole argument ender is whether the Tamiya Sturmovik will look like an Il-2 when it's sitting on your display shelf. I'm certain it will. I'm also certain that it will be a joy to build. Much less importantly is whether Gaston's will once he's finished butchering it, if he ever finishes, that is...
tinbanger
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Posted: Friday, May 18, 2012 - 10:16 AM UTC
Why pictures look right when viewed from the wrong place
Dhanraj Vishwanath1, Ahna R Girshick1 & Martin S Banks1,2

Abstract
A picture viewed from its center of projection generates the same retinal image as the original scene, so the viewer perceives the scene correctly. When a picture is viewed from other locations, the retinal image specifies a different scene, but we normally do not notice the changes.
Tojo72
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Posted: Friday, May 18, 2012 - 11:20 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Are we taking into account the rather large possibility of combat damage to this aircraft? Even though the right wing does not look visibly damaged from this angle, it's possible that it is in fact bent from when the aircraft crash-landed. I'd much rather be playing detective using an intact airframe sitting on its wheels the way it's designed to sit. Even better would be a photograph taken down the wing from the wingtip. If anything would show dihedral, that would.

The whole argument ender is whether the Tamiya Sturmovik will look like an Il-2 when it's sitting on your display shelf. I'm certain it will. I'm also certain that it will be a joy to build. Much less importantly is whether Gaston's will once he's finished butchering it, if he ever finishes, that is...



you are so right
TheModeller
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Posted: Friday, May 18, 2012 - 12:25 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Are we taking into account the rather large possibility of combat damage to this aircraft?



Of course its quite possible, however the point is that Gaston has used that pic to prove there is no dihedral break, I'm pointing out that it appears there is a visible dihedral break and the measurements Ron mentioned from his references bear this out far more eloquently than any number of crayoned lines on a photo.

Maybe the picture is showing combat damage, though I find that doubtful, and maybe its just showing whats really there and Gaston has elected to ignore it because it doesn't support his assertions.
macplus
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Posted: Friday, May 18, 2012 - 12:57 PM UTC
Guys here's a scan of the drawings included on the 4+ book so you get your own conclusions, HTH
PS: I don't have the rights on this drawing, it's prperty of the afore mentined company

http://i982.photobucket.com/albums/ae307/RonaldAlp/il2a.jpg
macplus
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Posted: Friday, May 18, 2012 - 01:00 PM UTC
Seems i made a mistake... let's try again
eclarson
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Posted: Friday, May 18, 2012 - 03:22 PM UTC
Guys (and gals),
By now, you should realize any attempt to point out the errors of his ways to Gaston is just so much whistling in the wind.

As for the Tamiya Il-2, hop on over to Hyperscale and take a look at Brett's excellent build. It looks to be a superb kit and although I have a pair of AM Shturmoviks in my stash, I have little doubt one of Tamiya's will find its way in too.

http://www.hyperscale.com/2012/galleries/il248bg_1.htm

Cheers,
Eric
AussieReg
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Posted: Friday, May 18, 2012 - 03:56 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Are we taking into account the rather large possibility of combat damage to this aircraft?



It's not combat damage Jessica, it's the hinge point that allows the wing to flap. With that bent prop design (a fatal flaw), there's no other way for it to take off !
Jessie_C
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Posted: Friday, May 18, 2012 - 04:07 PM UTC

Quoted Text

It's not combat damage Jessica, it's the hinge point that allows the wing to flap. With that bent prop design (a fatal flaw), there's no other way for it to take off !



So in other words it's got variable dihedral which means that all the kits are wrong. Or right. Or both at the same time.

The point I was subtly trying to make is that it's not a very good idea to use photos of crashed airplanes to try and prove what an uncrashed one looked like. Likely it's going to fly right over Gaston's head (or go right through without stopping) like all the rest of our crisicisms of his methods.
AussieReg
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#007
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Posted: Friday, May 18, 2012 - 04:19 PM UTC

Quoted Text

So in other words it's got variable dihedral . .



Variable AND reversible, innovative indeed.


Quoted Text

. . .are wrong. Or right. Or both at the same time



Hmmm, philosophical. I'm always right, I thought I might have been wrong ONCE, but I was mistaken . . . .
Merlin
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Posted: Friday, May 18, 2012 - 08:36 PM UTC
Hi again

This has turned out to be a really interesting thread! I have to admit I'd never noticed the break in dihedral until Ian pointed it out. I too was going by the 4+ scale drawings, but consulting Crowood Aviation book was a real eye-opener. The original design drawings reproduced there certainly show the dihedral as Ian describes, and here are a couple of details of an early single-seater with and without a line so you can check for yourselves:





It'll be interesting to see if Tamiya have reproduced it.

Incidentally, as far as Gaston's point about the AM kit having different dihedral on each wing, try as I might, I can't find any evidence that it's lob-sided - unless you build it that way, of course.

All the best

Rowan
macplus
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Posted: Friday, May 18, 2012 - 09:49 PM UTC
Here's two more for your viewing pleasure, HTH


Ron
MikeMx
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Posted: Friday, May 18, 2012 - 09:50 PM UTC
I'd like to know if Gaston ever did finish his Airfix Spitfire XII. I did mine over the course of a week or 2, oob with the only addition being Eduard seatbelts. People seem to like it and think it's a nice model, no one has said anything about it looking wrong and it's been displayed at a few shows now.

thanks
Mike