Ahh... thanks Antoni, but I was referring to the other legs - the landing gear and whether they should have scissor links or not. I guess I should have put the quotation marks around the word legs instead. Sorry for misleading you.
I saw your other photos of "Pat" in another thread. Unfortunately a little bit too late for me to avoid the stripes under the wings. Maybe if I build another one just to test Mal's revised mask for Pat herself. But I will benefit from your pictures when it comes to weathering.
Take care
/Fredrik
Hosted by Rowan Baylis
Eduard Spitfire IX and Miracle Masks
FredrikA
Joined: January 09, 2008
KitMaker: 92 posts
AeroScale: 90 posts
Posted: Friday, February 28, 2014 - 04:33 AM UTC
Antoni
Joined: June 03, 2006
KitMaker: 574 posts
AeroScale: 573 posts
Posted: Friday, February 28, 2014 - 07:48 AM UTC
There is no misunderstanding on my part. As can be seen 'Pat' does not have link type oleos.
As far as the PAF is concerned all F.IXs and LF.IXs were fitted with the spline type oleo.
The link type oleo above was introduced on late LF.IXs and XVIs in the spring and summer of 1945. As far as the PAF is concerned they are only seen on Mk XVIs.
As far as the PAF is concerned all F.IXs and LF.IXs were fitted with the spline type oleo.
The link type oleo above was introduced on late LF.IXs and XVIs in the spring and summer of 1945. As far as the PAF is concerned they are only seen on Mk XVIs.
FredrikA
Joined: January 09, 2008
KitMaker: 92 posts
AeroScale: 90 posts
Posted: Friday, February 28, 2014 - 07:56 AM UTC
Quoted Text
There is no misunderstanding on my part. As can be seen 'Pat' does not have link type oleos.
Again my mistake, only a larger one this time! Mea culpa, mea maxima culpa!
But I have to say that you are bloody marvelous! And I should have my eyesight checked.
Thank you so much!
/Fredrik the slightly blushing and amazed
EdgarBrooks
Joined: June 03, 2006
KitMaker: 397 posts
AeroScale: 384 posts
Posted: Friday, February 28, 2014 - 07:53 PM UTC
"Link type" oleo legs were introduced in late 1943, in fact the XIV (and possibly the VIII) had them from the start. The main difference was that the Supermarine-supplied oleos had the links on the back of the legs, which is why you never see them on the early airframes.
At the end of November 1943, provision was made for a CBAF-supplied oleo, which had the links on the front; this "provision" entailed cutting away a triangular part of the lower surface of the wing, where the wheel well met the leg "tunnel," to make room for the links.
If legs with links were replaced by ordinary types, the triangle was supposed to be replaced.
It was entirely a matter of operational necessity if legs with torque links were used, but it's very likely that they were needed (as were the four-spoke wheels & pointed rudder) on aircraft carrying bombs under the wings, and especially on the low-back XVI, with the extra fuel tank in the fuselage.
Edgar
At the end of November 1943, provision was made for a CBAF-supplied oleo, which had the links on the front; this "provision" entailed cutting away a triangular part of the lower surface of the wing, where the wheel well met the leg "tunnel," to make room for the links.
If legs with links were replaced by ordinary types, the triangle was supposed to be replaced.
It was entirely a matter of operational necessity if legs with torque links were used, but it's very likely that they were needed (as were the four-spoke wheels & pointed rudder) on aircraft carrying bombs under the wings, and especially on the low-back XVI, with the extra fuel tank in the fuselage.
Edgar
FredrikA
Joined: January 09, 2008
KitMaker: 92 posts
AeroScale: 90 posts
Posted: Monday, March 03, 2014 - 09:45 PM UTC
Some more work has been done…
The left Spit has received a little post shade; the other Spit is just there for comparison. I guess that the results are pleasing, but there is one place where I might have overdone it – the line to the left of the cannon bulge on the left wing. The problem is of course that the post shade is more visible on the grey areas and so it might just be that in comparison to the same line on the right wing it comes out a little too stark. I might address this issue before it is wash-time.
And then we’re back to the issue of links and legs. Thank you both, Antoni and Edgar for your inputs. I’ve done some reference checking of my own and this is what I’ve come up with; If one studies the legs, as provided by Eduard and corroborated by pictures in Haynes’ Spitfire book, one can see that the lower leg, which is the older kind without a link, lacks an extra “ring“. I my picture you can see that the red arrow points to the attachment point of the leg to the door. On the upper leg in my photo you can see that that lug sits above an extra ”ring”, the ring being indicated by the yellow arrow. If we then look at Antoni’s photo, that extra ring seems to be missing, suggesting that Pat in fact didn’t have torque links at this point, despite having a pointed rudder and carrying bombs. However, as I’m no expert on Spitfire landing gear, it could still be as Edgar pointed out that the links do exist but on the back side instead. If this is likely, given the missing element on the leg, I don’t know.
Pat should also have covering discs on her wheels. Eduard’s discs don’t have holes in the centre, Tamiya’s discs have holes. Since you either have to remove a part of the hub to get the discs to sit properly or make that hole, I decided to drill them out. Unfortunately the hole ended up slightly off centre, but it’s not as visible when you don’t view it in this enlarged format.
Both Spitfires will have a mirror on the hood and it should obviously not be all green.
So I made a little test using kitchen foil and a few other tools.
A small foil disc was punched. I had to use a bottom of plasticard when punching, otherwise the foil ended up all stretched and ugly. That little disc was then glued in place using Microscale’s Metal Foil Adhesive – which I really think is just a very thin version of white glue, but it works really well – and look there is a mirror. Again, looking at this in this really up close version makes it look worse than it does in reality. One should really avoid taking pictures of details…
/Fredrik
The left Spit has received a little post shade; the other Spit is just there for comparison. I guess that the results are pleasing, but there is one place where I might have overdone it – the line to the left of the cannon bulge on the left wing. The problem is of course that the post shade is more visible on the grey areas and so it might just be that in comparison to the same line on the right wing it comes out a little too stark. I might address this issue before it is wash-time.
And then we’re back to the issue of links and legs. Thank you both, Antoni and Edgar for your inputs. I’ve done some reference checking of my own and this is what I’ve come up with; If one studies the legs, as provided by Eduard and corroborated by pictures in Haynes’ Spitfire book, one can see that the lower leg, which is the older kind without a link, lacks an extra “ring“. I my picture you can see that the red arrow points to the attachment point of the leg to the door. On the upper leg in my photo you can see that that lug sits above an extra ”ring”, the ring being indicated by the yellow arrow. If we then look at Antoni’s photo, that extra ring seems to be missing, suggesting that Pat in fact didn’t have torque links at this point, despite having a pointed rudder and carrying bombs. However, as I’m no expert on Spitfire landing gear, it could still be as Edgar pointed out that the links do exist but on the back side instead. If this is likely, given the missing element on the leg, I don’t know.
Pat should also have covering discs on her wheels. Eduard’s discs don’t have holes in the centre, Tamiya’s discs have holes. Since you either have to remove a part of the hub to get the discs to sit properly or make that hole, I decided to drill them out. Unfortunately the hole ended up slightly off centre, but it’s not as visible when you don’t view it in this enlarged format.
Both Spitfires will have a mirror on the hood and it should obviously not be all green.
So I made a little test using kitchen foil and a few other tools.
A small foil disc was punched. I had to use a bottom of plasticard when punching, otherwise the foil ended up all stretched and ugly. That little disc was then glued in place using Microscale’s Metal Foil Adhesive – which I really think is just a very thin version of white glue, but it works really well – and look there is a mirror. Again, looking at this in this really up close version makes it look worse than it does in reality. One should really avoid taking pictures of details…
/Fredrik
Joel_W
Associate Editor
Joined: December 04, 2010
KitMaker: 11,666 posts
AeroScale: 7,410 posts
Posted: Tuesday, March 04, 2014 - 01:24 AM UTC
Fredrik,
Looking at the pictures on this page of the wheels, it seems that the covering disk does indeed have a center hole, so Tamiya got it right. As for being a tad off center with your hole, just a little sanding and it will be perfect to the eye.
Don't sell yourself short, your mirror came out great. Every detail we make looks a little rough viewed after being magnified several times larger then what it is in real life.
Joel
Looking at the pictures on this page of the wheels, it seems that the covering disk does indeed have a center hole, so Tamiya got it right. As for being a tad off center with your hole, just a little sanding and it will be perfect to the eye.
Don't sell yourself short, your mirror came out great. Every detail we make looks a little rough viewed after being magnified several times larger then what it is in real life.
Joel
FredrikA
Joined: January 09, 2008
KitMaker: 92 posts
AeroScale: 90 posts
Posted: Tuesday, March 04, 2014 - 09:59 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Don't sell yourself short, your mirror came out great. Every detail we make looks a little rough viewed after being magnified several times larger then what it is in real life. Don't sell yourself short, your mirror came out great. Every detail we make looks a little rough viewed after being magnified several times larger then what it is in real life.
Of course you're right Joel! Thanks for the support.
I've got a model show coming up in less than five weeks and for once I thought that I wouldn't be finishing everything the night before, so I put in some extra time tonight.
Landing gear finished and ready to install, just lacking a gentle wash.
And overall wash has been applied to the first Spit. Note the fact that there are two different washes, one for the grey and one for the green and other dark areas. I'm very pleased myself and all those painted markings are really turning out great now. Not to mention the fact that they respond to weathering the same way as all the other painted areas do, because they are painted and not decals.
/F
Joel_W
Associate EditorJoined: December 04, 2010
KitMaker: 11,666 posts
AeroScale: 7,410 posts
Posted: Wednesday, March 05, 2014 - 06:40 AM UTC
Fredrik,
The Landing gear came out great. What really grabbed my attention is the close up of the wing with the roundel painted on. OMG !! It's literally perfect. The weathering as you said looks exactly the same as the painted camo. That's the way it should be. I have to force the issue with decals.
Joel
The Landing gear came out great. What really grabbed my attention is the close up of the wing with the roundel painted on. OMG !! It's literally perfect. The weathering as you said looks exactly the same as the painted camo. That's the way it should be. I have to force the issue with decals.
Joel
Holdfast
President
#056
Joined: September 30, 2002
KitMaker: 8,581 posts
AeroScale: 4,913 posts
Posted: Wednesday, March 05, 2014 - 06:37 PM UTC
Hi Fredrick,
This is all god stuff and the close up of the upper wing roundel really does show the difference achievable between decals and painted on markings
When you have finished both Spits can you send me some pictures please? can I post them on my face book page?
This is all god stuff and the close up of the upper wing roundel really does show the difference achievable between decals and painted on markings
When you have finished both Spits can you send me some pictures please? can I post them on my face book page?
greif8
Joined: January 17, 2006
KitMaker: 673 posts
AeroScale: 492 posts
Posted: Wednesday, March 05, 2014 - 08:19 PM UTC
Hi Fredrik, great job on both builds. Your camo painting is really first class, very smooth indeed! Your painting using the masks is also excetionally well executed and looks quite nice!
Ernest
Ernest
FredrikA
Joined: January 09, 2008
KitMaker: 92 posts
AeroScale: 90 posts
Posted: Sunday, March 30, 2014 - 09:51 AM UTC
Hello again!
Sorry Joel, Mal and Ernest for not responding sooner. March is a crazy month for me. Work is at its worst and there is really only one model show for me to attend and it is of course placed on the first weekend in April, so a slight lack of modelling time has been the case despite a need for it and one effect has been no updates here. But both Spits have been finished. Some pictures slightly further down.
Joel wrote
Thank you! And I agree. This fact becomes even more obvious when the final coats of matt varnish goes on, as you will see below. And I hope my finished builds can inspire you to overcome the paint problem you have had, because your Spit deserves to be finished.
Mal wrote
Thanks for the kind words, even if I cut them away. Yes and yes to your questions. Tell me what you want, angles, close-ups of all markings, etc. I'll fix it and send you non-manipulated originals via mail.
Ernest wrote
Thanks for the feed back Ernest! I "blame" the smooth finish on Tamiya and Gunze paints and the masks are, well, exceptional. Good builders have good tools, just as good teachers have good students.
So, pictures...
They come in the opposite order of what I wanted, so you will see further down on "Pat" that she has got a fairly faded look. I have previously used Polly Scale matt, but ran out of it last year and have been looking for a replacement. "Pat" was coated with Model Master flat and it turned very dusty which gave a sun bleached look. Or at least I hope it can pass for that. But it wasn't really what I was looking for.
Searching my memory I remembered Mal mentioning a Windsor&Newton matt acrylic varnish in his 110 thread here at Aeroscale and I decided to try that for the second Spit (which is the first one you'll see below). Thank you Mal! It isn't easy to spray but it worked wonders and since the smallest package I could buy here in Uppsala was 3x125 ml, I think it'll last me a while.
Clostermann's Spitfire
"Pat" with her dusty sun bleached look...
Two more builds to finish before Saturday and then something new...
/Fredrik
Sorry Joel, Mal and Ernest for not responding sooner. March is a crazy month for me. Work is at its worst and there is really only one model show for me to attend and it is of course placed on the first weekend in April, so a slight lack of modelling time has been the case despite a need for it and one effect has been no updates here. But both Spits have been finished. Some pictures slightly further down.
Joel wrote
Quoted Text
What really grabbed my attention is the close up of the wing with the roundel painted on. OMG !! It's literally perfect. The weathering as you said looks exactly the same as the painted camo.
Thank you! And I agree. This fact becomes even more obvious when the final coats of matt varnish goes on, as you will see below. And I hope my finished builds can inspire you to overcome the paint problem you have had, because your Spit deserves to be finished.
Mal wrote
Quoted Text
When you have finished both Spits can you send me some pictures please? can I post them on my face book page?
Thanks for the kind words, even if I cut them away.
Yes and yes to your questions. Tell me what you want, angles, close-ups of all markings, etc. I'll fix it and send you non-manipulated originals via mail.Ernest wrote
Quoted Text
Hi Fredrik, great job on both builds. Your camo painting is really first class, very smooth indeed! Your painting using the masks is also excetionally well executed and looks quite nice!
Thanks for the feed back Ernest! I "blame" the smooth finish on Tamiya and Gunze paints and the masks are, well, exceptional. Good builders have good tools, just as good teachers have good students.
So, pictures...
They come in the opposite order of what I wanted, so you will see further down on "Pat" that she has got a fairly faded look. I have previously used Polly Scale matt, but ran out of it last year and have been looking for a replacement. "Pat" was coated with Model Master flat and it turned very dusty which gave a sun bleached look. Or at least I hope it can pass for that. But it wasn't really what I was looking for.
Searching my memory I remembered Mal mentioning a Windsor&Newton matt acrylic varnish in his 110 thread here at Aeroscale and I decided to try that for the second Spit (which is the first one you'll see below). Thank you Mal! It isn't easy to spray but it worked wonders and since the smallest package I could buy here in Uppsala was 3x125 ml, I think it'll last me a while.
Clostermann's Spitfire
"Pat" with her dusty sun bleached look...
Two more builds to finish before Saturday and then something new...
/Fredrik
Jessie_C
Joined: September 03, 2009
KitMaker: 6,965 posts
AeroScale: 6,247 posts
Posted: Sunday, March 30, 2014 - 10:57 AM UTC
That is absolutely delightful! Once you've finished with your contest and you have a little time, would you consider writing the build up to be put on the front page? It deserves to get as much attention as possible.
Joel_W
Associate EditorJoined: December 04, 2010
KitMaker: 11,666 posts
AeroScale: 7,410 posts
Posted: Sunday, March 30, 2014 - 11:20 AM UTC
Fredrik,
Now that I've built up the Spit myself, I took a very careful look at your build. And I do mean careful. Huge difference in how you got the fit so perfect with respect to areas that I either rushed through, or just plain accepted less then a perfect fit, which you proved is more then possible.
I'm already thinking that when the urge strikes to continue the build, I just might start a new kit and see if I can get the same build results as you have achieved.
Joel
Now that I've built up the Spit myself, I took a very careful look at your build. And I do mean careful. Huge difference in how you got the fit so perfect with respect to areas that I either rushed through, or just plain accepted less then a perfect fit, which you proved is more then possible.
I'm already thinking that when the urge strikes to continue the build, I just might start a new kit and see if I can get the same build results as you have achieved.
Joel
Holdfast
President#056
Joined: September 30, 2002
KitMaker: 8,581 posts
AeroScale: 4,913 posts
Posted: Sunday, March 30, 2014 - 06:52 PM UTC
Hi Fredrick,
Both Spitfires look spot on. When I let a set of masks go to a customer I am always apprehensive of the fact that they might not be able to use them. These two sets, particularly "Pat", slightly more so because of the nose art, which makes the sets special. No worries on that score with your builds though These will be a wonderful advert for using paint masks. I can capture these pics and use them on my Face Book page, or send me copies, that would be cool; a comment about the masks would be appreciated too?
Both Spitfires look spot on. When I let a set of masks go to a customer I am always apprehensive of the fact that they might not be able to use them. These two sets, particularly "Pat", slightly more so because of the nose art, which makes the sets special. No worries on that score with your builds though
These will be a wonderful advert for using paint masks. I can capture these pics and use them on my Face Book page, or send me copies, that would be cool; a comment about the masks would be appreciated too? FredrikA
Joined: January 09, 2008
KitMaker: 92 posts
AeroScale: 90 posts
Posted: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 - 06:07 AM UTC
Quoted Text
That is absolutely delightful! Once you've finished with your contest and you have a little time, would you consider writing the build up to be put on the front page? It deserves to get as much attention as possible.
Sure thing, Jessie!
Is there anything in particular to think about - a standard format, pictures, anything?
/F
FredrikA
Joined: January 09, 2008
KitMaker: 92 posts
AeroScale: 90 posts
Posted: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 - 06:11 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Fredrik,
Now that I've built up the Spit myself, I took a very careful look at your build. And I do mean careful. Huge difference in how you got the fit so perfect with respect to areas that I either rushed through, or just plain accepted less then a perfect fit, which you proved is more then possible.
I'm already thinking that when the urge strikes to continue the build, I just might start a new kit and see if I can get the same build results as you have achieved.
Joel
Thank you for your kind words Joel. I think your build had potential as well, but I'll let you be the judge of that. Eduard make excellent kits, but they need a bit of work and careful thought before glueing.
/Fredrik
FredrikA
Joined: January 09, 2008
KitMaker: 92 posts
AeroScale: 90 posts
Posted: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 - 06:19 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Hi Fredrick,
Both Spitfires look spot on. When I let a set of masks go to a customer I am always apprehensive of the fact that they might not be able to use them. These two sets, particularly "Pat", slightly more so because of the nose art, which makes the sets special. No worries on that score with your builds though
Thanks Mal! I hope that people, i.e. potential customers of yours, that have read and seen my build blog here, realise that using your masks isn't difficult and that it doesn't require you to make a deal with someone in a hot place in order to make them work.
Basically take any pictures you want from here and I'll send you a couple of "originals" via e-mail. What kind of comment? A short thing or a longer thing... Facebook is alien to me so I haven't seen your page and don't really know what you might want. But being quite happy with your masks, I'll quite happily write something for you to use.
/Fredrik
Merlin
Senior Editor#017
Joined: June 11, 2003
KitMaker: 17,582 posts
AeroScale: 12,795 posts
Posted: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 - 08:28 AM UTC
Hi Fredrik
Superb! They should definitely be on the front page when you get a chance!
All the best
Rowan
Superb! They should definitely be on the front page when you get a chance!
All the best
Rowan
Holdfast
President#056
Joined: September 30, 2002
KitMaker: 8,581 posts
AeroScale: 4,913 posts
Posted: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 - 06:50 PM UTC
Quoted Text
What kind of comment? A short thing or a longer thing... Facebook is alien to me so I haven't seen your page and don't really know what you might want. But being quite happy with your masks, I'll quite happily write something for you to use.
/Fredrik
Anything that you feel is appropriate, even negative. I just like to be able to quote customers rather than me spouting the virtues of paint masks
So, ideally, comments about their use, the instructions and the virtues of painted on markings Jessie_C
Joined: September 03, 2009
KitMaker: 6,965 posts
AeroScale: 6,247 posts
Posted: Wednesday, April 02, 2014 - 12:29 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextThat is absolutely delightful! Once you've finished with your contest and you have a little time, would you consider writing the build up to be put on the front page? It deserves to get as much attention as possible.
Sure thing, Jessie!
Is there anything in particular to think about - a standard format, pictures, anything?
/F
Take a look through the recent features to see the format which we tend to use:
A short history section of a paragraph or more which details the aircraft and possibly its pilot;
A segment about the kit;
Building with any tricks, techniques, traps and gotchas;
Painting (which in this case includes the masks;
Then a wrap-up giving your impressions of the model and whatever else you'd like to add.
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