The first Boeing built G's were delivered in July and the insignia change didn't come about until mid August. So all F's that came from the factory with the bars had the red surround initially. When you see a photo where the surround appears light colored, that was red. Just one of the effects of some of the B & W film of the era.

Edit: Interesting to note that 367 was not delivered until October 25th. Perhaps the wings were from a stockpile from the sub-contractor or it just may have taken the factory a while to comply with the changes.

Thanks, Karl. Your "quick notes" are priceless. So, the red has to be there, right? Now making plans how I'm going to do it

Enjoy the trip in France. The red wines of Normandy are terrific! Not too sure about the ladies, though.

Cheers!
Gabriel

Hey Gabriel, I think you have the option. While it came from the factory with the red outline, it was most likely overpainted with the blue. It just weathered off the wing section that was outside for however many years !

OK, I see...
I think it will be useful to find a flight log, because the depicted Chow-hound is an "early" one, before her 15th mission, and coroborate the "age" of the a/c with the USAF regulations.
Thanks again,
Gabriel

Gabriel: the following information comes from the late Roger Freeman's "The B-17 Flying Fortress Story: Design-Production-History." The book contains very brief information about every B-17 produced. For Chow Hound it indicates that the aircraft was delivered to Cheyenne Wyoming on October 25, 1943. The aircraft was assigned to the 322nd bomb squadron 91st bomb group on January 25, 1944. The record indicates that it went missing in action (50+m) [50 plus missions?] on August 8, 1944 and that it "blew in half."

I suspect that it took years of exposure to the elements for the badly painted blue paint on the national insignia surround to wear away exposing the red underneath. I also think you would be "within your rights" to complete this model with the national insignia with the red surround on the bottom starboard wing.

I say that on the assumption that it would be a very early incarnation of the airplane. We already know that it went into combat without having the deicer boots removed and there is an argument that the bottom right insignia also would not have been repainted early in the aircraft's service life (or at all?) even if other national insignia were over painted.

My basis for making this argument is a 303rd aircraft with an underside view pictured in flight on January 11, 1944, the day it was lost. This was an old F model and although the national insignia on the waist had been painted with a bars and a blue surround for the national insignia, rather extraordinarily the national insignia on the bottom starboard wing was a simple insignia blue circle with white star and no bars at all! This leads me to the conclusion that the inaccessibility and hassle of the starboard bottom wing for repainting something like a national insignia made it a fairly low priority, especially when one considers that this is one of the less prominent areas of the aircraft to other aircraft in flight.

So, I think you have an argument for putting this nonstandard insignia on the bottom right wing. There is clear evidentiary proof that red surrounded the insignia at one point in the aircraft's existence, and anecdotal suggestions that that location would not be a high priority for updating.

If it was me, I would do it. Kits World decals feature this size insignia for the B-17. http://kitsworld.co.uk/index.php?CATEGORY=4&SUB=1&THISPAGE=1&RADIOSORT=4&PICFILE=388&STKNR=388&STRH=3332&ORDN=2491&RNZ=606777

Hello, guys.

Very well documented posting, Brian, thank you so much.
I know some time passed from my last posting, but wasn't Sitzkrieg by no means.

First and most important thing: I had a long conversation with the commissioner over the markings. I sent him pictures with Pluto with and without Purple Heart, with pre- and after November '43 USAF markings and so on, so on. I'm transcribing here his final answer, because it was so funny:
"Listen, you scholar! I like the shape and the color of the aircraft! Whatever it's in between is your cup of tea - you are the artiste!"
So, yes, the contour of the markings will be red (thanks, Brian; thanks Karl).
Only the problem starts now: no decals, I am on my own. I have two options:
1. To cut masks (I have a plotter) and to spray the decals with red;
2. Print out my own decals on white decal paper (inkjet).
Both options are risky and I think I'm going to try them in that order (hopefully will be no need for the "Plan B").

And now,
*** UPDATE ***

I painted the turbos:



I applied most of the decals, bar six of them:






It was a not so nice experience with all that raised detail and compound curves but I have to credit Revell with good quality. No silvering whatsoever, just a little marble effect under the large white blocks. Unfortunately, they are a little off-register which give a nice spray effect on the large letters, but smudges the small prints (the name of Newquist cannot be read, it can be guessed only for instance). Also the small ones seem a little in the thick side, the edges visible under certain light angles (I hope the final matte varnish will eliminate that).

Finally, I tested the first step of weathering. Here I need very much you honest opinion (too much, too less, too dark?):



Thank you one more time for your precious help on this build.

Cheers!
Gabriel

Hello Gabriel. It's looking good!


In fact, Kits-World makes a red-surround set of decals for the B-17. https://www.hannants.co.uk/product/KW48125







It's just my opinion, but if I was building this I would put the red surround national insignia only on the bottom right wing, for reasons previously expressed. Plus, we have unmistakable photographic evidence of it with a blue surround national insignia on the fuselage.



Now, if you really want to go crazy look at a blown up version of the above picture. You might detect a subtle difference in tone between the US insignia blue surrounding the star and the blue surrounding the whole insignia.

If you think this is how it should be shown, you can get this decal set from Ultracast: http://www.ultracast.ca/products/Limited%20Stock/Cutting_Edge/48-Scale/CED48262/default.htm





If it was me, because of the cost of this out of production set I would probably go with kit decals for everything except the national insignia on the lower right wing.

One final comment. You have masked off the forward cheek gun window frame on the port side. I don't know what colors are underneath it, but remember that these were painted in a fresher, dark olive drab because many of these were initially installed at modification centers after the aircraft left the factories.

I can't wait to get the fuselage complete on my 17 so that I can start on good stuff like you're doing now.

Hi, Brian.
OK, I'm betting on your hand. Red under-wing only. Yesterday I have blown that picture as much as I could on my desktop's screen. I noted the slight difference between the center and surrounding, but I thoght it was red! Different red from the tail red, because one was factory applied, the other field applied (so went my interpretation.)
As for buying decals set, it doesn't make financial sense for us, in the Island. If I buy them from US, I'll pay 15-20 dollars in shipping alone. If I buy them from UK, count 40. The whole kit was bought for 27 US on Amazon. So... no option for commissioner!

Also I have seen the different shades on cheecks and waist gunner window frames. Now, thanks to you, I have the technical explanation too. They are still bare plastic. There is some work to be done around all windows and tail turret. The most difficult is going to be the astrodome, I guess.

P.S. I have seen you're readying to button-up so, yes, you're catching up soon.

Thanks again,
Gabriel

...Finally, I tested the first step of weathering. Here I need very much you honest opinion (too much, too less, too dark?):

Gabriel,
The overall painting and decaling looks incredible, it's hard to believe that those are Revell decals. Very nice done.

As for your specific question and request for a answer, I really feel that the weathering effect was streaked on rather then looking more like dirt, grime, etc. being washed on and then worn off by the elements. here is a picture of a Aileron from my B-25B.



if this is the look you're trying to duplicate, here's how I go about it.

1-Primer black not gray as the rest of the aircraft
2-Painted base Olive Drab as the wing was
3-High lighted the raised ribs with airbrushed feathered streaks of the lighter faded Olive Drab.
4-After base weathering and sealing was done. I applied a heavy coat of Flory's Dark Acrylic wash. And using a Q-tip completed rubbed off the wash from the high areas, while leaving all to some in the valleys in a completely random pattern.

It's a lot easier then it sounds.

Joel

Hi, guys!

@Joel: Regarding the decals... I was lucky I guess... but my luck ran out (see infra). I used about the same steps (I jumped #3). Indeed, one can see my "afv" hand here. I used to clean the mess just a cotton cloth. I guess using swabs and insisting over the raised details will do the "streaky trick". One more try... soon.

***UPDATE*** [Idiot's chronicle to disaster]

I finished applying decals:



Nice, right? But... wait! One more left! The under-wing red bordered one.
CHAPTER ONE:
Try to paint the edge of the decal using a mask:

Bad luck! Something vent wrong - very wrong - with my paint and I see it too late. In my airbrush cup was a sci-fi image: blood red cells floating in a suspension of oily matter. The painted caked up like dried blood on the decal and it seeped in in two places. Write off...

CHAPTER TWO:
Print own decals on BMF white foil:

Yeah, nice. The right side one has a darker blue surround (barely distinguishable). I just cannot seal the ink inside decals. The surface suppose to be a gel which cures, sealing in the paint. I added two coats of Pledge. Right, the color is not smudging when the decal touches the water, but as soon I touch the surface and I try to seat the decal... I get a nice rainbow. At least I had enough brains to test it on my modelling table first. The cut-outs at the top of the paper are witnesses of two doomed trials.

CHAPTER THREE Plan C
What was that again? I never had a Plan C!
I cut all masks and start to spray, step by step (unfortunately I didn't took pictures, I was possessed by some maleficent spirit)...

Yupiii! Yoo-hoo! (I'm going slightly mad - Freddy Mercury)
That was a blow (another one, at that)!
I thought easy touch up will do it. But of course I have no insignia red and of course I didn't save the one from the airbrush... Need to mix another one, for the brush...
Of course I didn't get it right, just a dash darker!
Finally, I went to slightly sand it down and to apply some Pledge (a whole coat, to seal all decals). This is the current stage:


Now, with the hindsight, the solution have been so much easier: cut the blue surrounding of the original decal, spray on the wing the insignia red background and apply the decal! (du-uh!)

I know, Brian, you must be laughing loud! (Again, you were right)

I am collecting inner strength to finish dealing with that insignia (easy to say...)

At least looks painted on because it is painted on...

Meanwhile, I will try to emulate Joel in streaking my Chow Hound

Cheers, guys! Have a good laugh!
Gabriel

I'm not laughing. We've all been there. But it looks like a decent fix, where only you will see the "imperfections." And remember, 99.9% of the people looking at this will never see this area of the model.

I was just teasing, Brian. Yeah, a little sanding (I have some fine micromesh coming in Monday or so) and a retouch on white + borders will do it. After streaking and matte coat will be just about good.

Thanks again for your advising.

Cheers!
Gabriel

Agreed! "Well within your capabilities" and all that.

Actually, this really is cool. I do not know of a single other B-17G model built with a red surround on the national insignia! The below picture shows the A/C I mentioned with an outdated national insignia in the lower right wing. Read the caption for an explanation and justification for your "artistic license."



The details I mentioned in the caption re group insignia on tail and current insignia on fuselage can't be seen here, but could on the original print.

Brian, if Karl can claim the title of technical authority on B17s, you're qualifying as markings / insignia specialist. I'm really glad and grateful to have you around, gentlemen.

No doubt, I'm very happy I've followed your advice.

Cheers,
Gabriel

Gabriel,
Great fix on the decal! Barely notieable. In a few weeks you'll forget all about it.

Well done!

Gaz

@Gaz: thank you for support. Sure I will. Just needed to put the "demons" back to sleep.

Cheers!
Gabriel

*** UPDATE ***

Trying hard to get some airflow streaking effect. Not sure how good that is:



Upper surfaces:



The matte coat follows. The exhaust streaking will be done with chalks which adhere better to matte surface. Very hard to say after b&w pictures, but I think exhaust staining had a chalky appearance, because B17 were deployed at high altitude in oxygen deprived air.

Thank you for following and posting.

Cheers!
Gabriel

*** UPDATE ***

I did some weathering with chalks. The result is a little darker than intended on the under-side, especially on the tail, which I used as test bed:




With the lesson learned from the under-side, I moved to upper side



Now the finish line is pretty much in sight...

Note to Brian: It happened that I could see Osprey B17 in action and, indeed, many aircraft, especially from F series, have odd and incomplete markings.

Cheers!
Gabriel

Lookin' REALLY good, Gabriel. Love the red surround on the lower wing.

Gabriel,
The weathering is looking rather good. I took a good look at the picture that Brian posted looking up at the bottom. The tail is somewhat visible, and the weathering is rather pronounced. If you feel it's a little heavy, and it's just chalk, it should be easy to tone down.

Joel

Hi Gabriel,
Your streaking looks really great! The tail maye be a bit dark, but you could lighten it with some earth tones.

Dust and dirt will invariably make their way onto the tarmac. Then, flung into the air by prop wash and spinning wheels. That bit that lands on the upper surfaces will mostly be washed off by rain. But that on the underside will see kess attention.

That's my reasoning anyway.

In a coal burning region, black soot might be found. But I think earth tones might help out.

Best wishes,

Gaz

Gabriel, that's looking good! I don't know if it's already been discussed here, but those vents in the wing are to let fresh air flush gas fumes out of the wing. The areas behind them are clean- the engine exhaust is concentrated between them.

Good to know, Chuck!

@ Brian: Thank you, sir.

@ Joel: Yeah, I've seen dirtier than that; I was talking about the personal preference.

@ Gaz: good tip - I'm bend to try it. On the tail is a smudge of chalk and enamel wash... hard to remove without damage to clear coat.

@ Chuck: Thanks for stopping by, Chuck. Very good and timely head-up. Checked more references and most are the same like your pic: between the slats and somewhat bent to inside of the wings. I have cleaned the old smudges (easy task with chalks) and I'm ready now for another clear.

Since last intervention, I applied a fine dark brown oil wash on the engines, because detail was a dash faded and I finally addressed the rugged edges on the under-wing insignia (got my supplies yesterday and - the cherry on the icing - my compressor replacement).

Thank you one more time, gents!

Cheers!
Gabriel