Hey guys just heard on news that the RAH 66 Commanche attack/scout helicopter program has been cancelled after twenty years of development.

Beat me to it. Here's a link to a Washington Post article on it. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A64336-2004Feb23.html

I did some study on the Commanche project when I was at Ft. Lee for school in 2002. It was only a matter of time before they killed it.

I've always been puzzled by what, exactly, it was supposed to add. Didn't offer more kill-power than the Apache; it offered less. Didn't offer better surveilance than RPV's. What was the niche, exactly? Too bad it got cancelled at this stage, though, where we taxpayers have shelled out big bucks and will get to shell out more in cancelation fees. Sad also for the workers who had planned on building it.

It was supposed to replace the OH-58D/AH-58D Kiowa Warrior. It was not designed to be the deep attack interdictor that the Apache is. It was to give the maneuver commander an airborne scout that had more stealth, firepower and survivability than the old Nam era Kiowa.

The Comanche may just be the first on the chopping block. Some of the news reports I've read say the Pentagon is taking a hard look at cancelling the V-22 Osprey and the F/A-22 Raptor. Looks like may the Marines and the Air Force may also be losing some new toys .... stay tuned ...

My older brother is a Senior Master Sgt. stationed at Nellis AFB where the F/A-22 is undergoing some testing, and he tells me that most of the guys who work on the plane think it's a piece of junk. The worst thing about the plane is that it is a maintenance nightmare trying to maintain the plane's stealthyness after any work is done on it's internal workings. They said that it takes many more hours to get a raptor flying again after having to open a panel than any other plane in the inventory.
However, it was cool seeing one of those suckers taking off last fall when I visted my bro down there in Vegas and he showed me around the base.

My understanding as well... but now what? ... keeping the already old (basic) OH-58 around for another 20 years? (My S-3 Air experience talking there...)

I don't see any more need for the F-22 and the Osprey is nice, but damn expensive! Sikorsky has a very nice and capable CH-46 replacement already on the line with many parts common to the UH-60.... why not?

Hmmmmm.............so, if we turn in the receipts, do we get a refund?

NO! That thing was a beauty!!

Originally it was a deep attack interdicter designed to replace the Apache but after Desert Storm the Apache and Longbow supporters moaned all over capitol hill to keep the Ah-64. After that it was just a downward spiral for the Ah-66 program, beginning with the scout/light attack reconfigurations to the mission profile of the original aircraft. More and more funding was robbed from the program to keep the Longbow system the dominate priority of the Army and in a lot of ways, the whole situation really reflects how the Army treated the Ah-56 Cheyenne program(which is better than any of the a/c stated above). So its really really sad that it finally did get cancelled because the Army could really use it and its needed to go from 70's technology into the early 90's-21st century technology.

It's about time they cancelled it. 20 years of development with billions of dollars spent without a single, combat-capable prototype is scandalous IMO. JSTARS was able to join the 91 Gulf War while it was still under development. Comanche sat on the benches while Afghanistan and Iraq happened. UCAVs are the future now. Comanche has become obsolete years ago - especially now with Hellfire-armed Predators, stealthy UAVs like Global Hawk, and upcoming designed-from-the-ground-up UCAVs. Too bad the US Army still has to pay $2 billion worth of contract termination fees. That could've been money well spent on ammunition, guns, body armor, etc. etc.

EDIT:

ROTFL!

The Discovery Channel (Asia) was just showing another sales pitch/glowing documentary on the Comanche a few minutes ago hehehe! Seems that aside from the Comanche Mafia, the Discovery Channel benefited from this program.

This reminds me of reading up on the Joint Strike Fighter and seeing that for the first time _ever_ the proposal had to account for cost. Imagine that!

Stephen

The last thing I want to do is start a flame war over this but I would like to ask why do you think it was already obsolete? Unless you actually know the capabilities of tha a/c I woundt go as far as actually saying something like that.

The Americans should give the billions of dollars they spend on a single helicopter design to the Canadian Army so we can transport our friggin' tanks to a combat zone.

It was only a matter of time really....reports about the v-22 and F22 I think are a little bit premature, I think if anything the F-22 will be scaled back more than it already has and they will wait for the F35 to bear fruit....don't for get, the F22 is was a little more advanced in its opeational schedule than the Comanchie was, since the first operational squadren is supposed to be formed by the end of 2004, or early 2005.

As far as the ospray goes, the marines do need a new ship, and as someone else pointed out, Sikorsky has a helo out there that shares parts with the UH/SH60 series, although I don't think its as big as the CH-46 it would be replacing. Our own Canadian Navy is actually looking at the new Sikorsky helo as a replacement for our ever aging Sea Kings, the competition is down to the EH-101 (of which we already have 15 of them for SAR duties) and the Sikorsky S-92.

Especially after I hear that you guys may be closing 5 bases because of bankruptcy problems.

We're closing four bases, but it isn't really confirmed yet so it's a wait and see situation. I read somewhere that the only NATO country with a defense budget as big as ours is Luxembourg.

I've been reading those news reports too! Man, I don't get it. I've never heard of a bankrupt military before - using the "bankrupt" term from the news article.

Gunnie

The reason why our military is nearly bankrupt is because of politician mispending and misuse of the federal budget. One thing I will add though is what exactly is the reason in having a large military anyways. The Soviet Union is gone, Nazi Germany is gone..... really, what is the point. In my opinion, the U.S. military is about 90% too large, get rid of some of the redundant machinery and stop some of the silly projects and concentrate on more pressing matters at home. For the time being, there will be no more world wars and just low-intensity brushfire conflicts. Just my two cents anyways

Everytime we downsize our military though something pops up that drastically shows the importance of a large force.

Boy you wouldn't know it be reading the Army times. You're always reading articles about how someone, a politican usually, says we need two more divsions back. Myabe we do, but I don't think so. I'll save my under-utilization of the RC thoughts for another thread.

Here's my one complaint about this cancellation, and it really isn't a complaint just begrudging admiration really, at least there was plan for the aftermath of the project termination. The Army is going to invest this money from Comanche into recapitalization and purchasing of new, existing, airframes. Hopefully alot of these new purchases will make thier way into the ARNG and USAR, or atleast we'll get newer airframes that what we have. But I watched in horror as the Crusader was canned and now all new acqusition of M270 MLRSs by the ARNG and no one had a concrete plan for the FA to go along with those system cancelations.

Yes true 18 FA Battalions in the ARNG will become MP or some other unit, but that was a thrown together plan announced in November, shortly after MLRS conversion funding was eliminated and Paladin fieldings were suspended. When Crusader was killed there was no plan created to utilize the money alloacted there for any long term purchases of new cannon systems or upgrading/recapitalizing older systems in the ARNG. Certainly nothing like the plan LTG Cody and Gen Schoomaker have put together for Army Avation. The money that would have been spent on Crusader just kind of slipped back into the Army somewhere.

Was Crusader too heavy? Yes. Was it irrelvant? If relavance means that you could use less Crusaders to achieve more accurate,timely and effective fires than the M109A6 then the answer is no! Could the money from Crusader have been used to upgrade or make the FA branch lighter or more modern immediately? Yes! The money was supposed to go towards Gen Shinseki's FCS system for the artillery known as NETFIRES. I'm sure that system is still going to be fielded at some point but in the interim you have a FA branch that this too heavy a force structure to relavent. There ae more DS and GS artillery battalions that are Self Propelled or MLRS than towed. GS towed artillery is based on the M198, a very heavy and cumbersome piece to move by air or ground. Thus we as artillery are left out of deployments to Afghanistan or other remote regions because we can't be moved easily in mass .


I realize I'm off topic but I think this cancellation does teach some valuable lessons to pay attention too. For me one is is this: if you cancel a substantial military project you should have a plan for dealing with the money saved or void created by that cancellation. The Avaition corps is lucky that they got that foresight, the FA in the US Army did not and those of us in this branch are feeling the effects. We've been told we lack focus as a branch, we're too heavy, that are we're not flexible. These statements are true, but we haven't been given all the tools to effect change ethier.

My 1,000,000,000 pesos worth (2 cents USD)

Hey "Tiny" the Unites States only spends 1.7% of its entire gross national product on defense. Just what 90% do you think we need to cut? what a laugh! my opinion is we don't spend enough on defense even though were now at war.

Maybe the Nazi Germanies and Soviet Unions are gone...but there are always other nations and regimes to take their place, and no I am not talking about Saddam's Iraq regime that was just a joke that should have been taken care of 12-13yrs ago when papa Bush had the chance.

I am talking of the likes of China, North Korea, heck even Pakistan and India, what about Iran. Its taking the bulk of the US military might, with the help of the British, as well as other countries like Canada, Austrailia, New Zealand, etc, etc, to contain a country such as Iraq, what are we going to do if China decides to rock the boat???? There is no way that a sizable force like that, that is in Iraq would be able to invade and contain a country such as China.....just not going to happen. Not country in the world would have the ability to do that, not the US, not the UK, and definatly not Canada. No we aren't in the old Cold War of the 50s to the 90's, but the threat is still there......Soviet Union dead????? Don't fool yourselves, get the wrong person in power in Moscow and its back to Stalinism and the old Soviet Union, and if you think that they couldn't put a massive sizeable force across the Rhine and capture a sizeable amount of western Europe before anyone could do much about it, don't fool yourself.
With the lastest misappropriation of funds in the Canadian Gov't, our own military is going to be not much more than a glorified police force with nice shiney toys that we can't use because its cost too much to use them, so we have to continue to use 50yr old equipment to defend ourselves and our nation with, when we should be at the same staffing levels as we were just after WWII when we were still a feared world force, now we are faced with 60yr old naval helos, an elimination of our MBT, being replaced by a tin can with a big gun, frigates that are too technical, destroyers than have been around since the mid 50s, an airforce with aircraft that have been around for 20yrs with no upgrades, pretty pathetic for a the second largest country in the world.

To what I can't figure out is why we are building so many aircraft carriers, France is the only other country that has a modern aircraft carrier, and it only holds 40 planes to our 80 planes. Russia had two old ones, and the one was totally stripped down for a refit, and after the breakup of Russia, the state that had it, couldn't afford to finish it, so they auctioned it off, and the Chinese bought it, and towed it to their country, so that leaves Russia with one, just as old as the one they stripped down to the bare hull, that was to old for proper defense, and the stripped down one makes the only big one China has. If we had just two multi billion dollar aircraft carriers, that is twice as much as any other country. Most of the other countries only have small helicopter carriers, with Great Britain leading in them. The small countries only have give aways from Russia, and the US, in the most part. I seen another artical showing the new missile cruiser we sold South Korea, looks identical to our latest new cruisers.