Bloody April seems to be the winner - when do we start discussing it ?
I'm reading Peter Hart's "Bloody April, Slaughter in the Skies over Arras, 1917" trying to figure out what I can do ...
John
Air Campaigns
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"Bloody April Campaign 1917" Official thread
jRatz
Joined: March 06, 2004
KitMaker: 1,171 posts
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Posted: Monday, November 20, 2006 - 06:49 AM UTC
JackFlash
Joined: January 25, 2004
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Posted: Monday, November 20, 2006 - 07:43 AM UTC
Greetings John;
Merlin says from January til June, 2007.
See; https://aeroscale.kitmaker.net/forums/86927&page=1
I will probably approach the specifics during my vacation in Dec. 2006. Here is a brief reminder of the subject matter.
"Bloody April 1917" Build an history correct - ace's mount from Allied or Central Powers and his victim. Describing in the best detail you can the fateful combat.
"...let me say that we have not been too strict in its application. The Ace could have become and Ace later on. (Using the term "Ace" in the venacular has different standards for each combatant nation. Five victories is typical for the allies. lets say 5 victories minimum. Yes the combat has to have taken place somewhere between April 1 - 30, 1917. Though it can be any two combatants that actually meet during that time period and yes that would entail two builds. But To make it easy. If you already have one model in hand we could allow that you simply build its opposite..."
Merlin says from January til June, 2007.
See; https://aeroscale.kitmaker.net/forums/86927&page=1
I will probably approach the specifics during my vacation in Dec. 2006. Here is a brief reminder of the subject matter.
"Bloody April 1917" Build an history correct - ace's mount from Allied or Central Powers and his victim. Describing in the best detail you can the fateful combat.
"...let me say that we have not been too strict in its application. The Ace could have become and Ace later on. (Using the term "Ace" in the venacular has different standards for each combatant nation. Five victories is typical for the allies. lets say 5 victories minimum. Yes the combat has to have taken place somewhere between April 1 - 30, 1917. Though it can be any two combatants that actually meet during that time period and yes that would entail two builds. But To make it easy. If you already have one model in hand we could allow that you simply build its opposite..."
Kitboy
Joined: July 20, 2006
KitMaker: 258 posts
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Posted: Monday, November 20, 2006 - 11:26 PM UTC
Since it is Bloody April it's obvious the haunter is a German plane (can't think of anything else more obvious then an Albatros DIII) and the haunted a British one... Mmh, just sold my Eduard Albatros DIII Red Baron version 
Greetings, Nico
Greetings, Nico
HunterCottage
#116
Joined: December 19, 2001
KitMaker: 1,717 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, November 21, 2006 - 02:33 AM UTC
I was wondering if I could be pointed in the right direction for an Italian ace Francesco Baracca. I know he died in 1918 so he must have flown in april 1917, seeing his first score was in 1916.
The reason I think he is an interesting candidate is it is his prancing stallion that is used by Ferarri.
Any help is appreciated!
The reason I think he is an interesting candidate is it is his prancing stallion that is used by Ferarri.
Any help is appreciated!
JackFlash
Joined: January 25, 2004
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Posted: Tuesday, November 21, 2006 - 03:17 AM UTC
Definately the Nieuport 17...Eduard Profipack 8033 has the decals.
Possibly the Nieuport 24? Also he did fly a Spad VII with the rampant stallion. For that I suggest a try at the Special Hobby Spad VII.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francesco_Baracca
The Spad XIII pictured in the beginning of the article is from April 1918. So that won't be of much help.
For an excellent reference on the Spad VII may I recommend
Spad VII website
My review of the book from May 2004;
My copy of Spad VII C.1 by Tomasz Gronczewski, Seweryn M. Fleischer has arrived. First let me say, that to call this work a monograph is a bit of an understatement. Anyone who is lucky enough to get this work as a reference will be confronted with 166 pages of great material. Along with English and Polish text you will find 14 pages of plan views of every variant known from the parent company and other licensed builders. Color profiles and a walk around of a restored Italian museum piece. The finest examples of factory and front line original photos both interior and exterior. Other country and various camouflage applications are great topics of discussion here. Many of these I have not seen until today. My first read through (about 1 hour) has produced only 2 typographical errors. Gauging the aircraft profiles that are available I would expect a 50-60 dollar price tag on this book and it is worth every penny. There is even an online errata site for this book offered in its inside cover.
Anyone who is the least bit interested in this aircraft type does themselves a terrible dis-service by not purchasing it straight away.
Possibly the Nieuport 24? Also he did fly a Spad VII with the rampant stallion. For that I suggest a try at the Special Hobby Spad VII.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francesco_Baracca
The Spad XIII pictured in the beginning of the article is from April 1918. So that won't be of much help.
For an excellent reference on the Spad VII may I recommend
Spad VII website
My review of the book from May 2004;
My copy of Spad VII C.1 by Tomasz Gronczewski, Seweryn M. Fleischer has arrived. First let me say, that to call this work a monograph is a bit of an understatement. Anyone who is lucky enough to get this work as a reference will be confronted with 166 pages of great material. Along with English and Polish text you will find 14 pages of plan views of every variant known from the parent company and other licensed builders. Color profiles and a walk around of a restored Italian museum piece. The finest examples of factory and front line original photos both interior and exterior. Other country and various camouflage applications are great topics of discussion here. Many of these I have not seen until today. My first read through (about 1 hour) has produced only 2 typographical errors. Gauging the aircraft profiles that are available I would expect a 50-60 dollar price tag on this book and it is worth every penny. There is even an online errata site for this book offered in its inside cover.
Anyone who is the least bit interested in this aircraft type does themselves a terrible dis-service by not purchasing it straight away.
JackFlash
Joined: January 25, 2004
KitMaker: 11,669 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, November 21, 2006 - 03:49 AM UTC
I contacted JRatz and have commandiered his thread for our own intents and purposes... I suggested we use this thread for all to ask questions and concerns. Then the host thread that will open in Jan 2007 and will be the area that we can post rules and finished images. Less clutter and more of a gallery look.
jRatz
Joined: March 06, 2004
KitMaker: 1,171 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, November 21, 2006 - 08:12 AM UTC
As I said, I'm reading ... I mostly do 1/48 British ... the only German kit I have is the Planet Rumpler C.IV which I bought recently (your recommendation, Stephen, I think) -- I think it is Apr'17 timeframe. For April 1917 I have the DH2, FE2b, Strutter, and RE8 -- looking for a Pup, Tripe, or Nieuport. I don't focus on Aces, in fact I tend to build the odd stuff so I'm at a disadvantage knowledge and stash-wise ...
I guess an Alb D3 would work, but I'd rather it be the victim.
John
I guess an Alb D3 would work, but I'd rather it be the victim.
John
JackFlash
Joined: January 25, 2004
KitMaker: 11,669 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, November 21, 2006 - 10:43 AM UTC
Quoted Text
As I said, I'm reading ... I mostly do 1/48 British ... the only German kit I have is the Planet Rumpler C.IV which I bought recently (your recommendation, Stephen, I think) -- I think it is Apr'17 timeframe. For April 1917 I have the DH2, FE2b, Strutter, and RE8 -- looking for a Pup, Tripe, or Nieuport. I don't focus on Aces, in fact I tend to build the odd stuff so I'm at a disadvantage knowledge and stash-wise ...
I guess an Alb D.III would work, but I'd rather it be the victim.
John
Hey John,
I'll gather up a list of references and post them here for everyone to check out. It may help to think of this in reference to units. I have complete and semi-complete German unit and roster histories available on my site. But for those looking for single entry concerns I can probably do a bit of cross referencing for gratis. When you think of this stuff in reference to German units I have beau coup causalties lists. So with a simple cut and paste I can show you the known combats (victories and losses) for say ...Jasta 11 during April 1917. The lists I have show who, what when where and by whom a German pilot was in combat with win or lose. Sometimes I even have the serial number of the enemy victor.
Nothing up my sleeve presto. Now to do this You have to;
1. Be an Aeroscale member. Post your request here.
2. Contact me through my website and give me your e-mail address.
3. Tell me which unit you are looking for the concerning the month of April 1917.
4. Be specific. No one gets a second dip at the trough and only Jastas Nr.1 - 37 existed in April 1917. The others came later.
If your lucky the references I post here will probably get you the profiles your looking for.
Also Hey John guess what model kit I have slated to build for review for the beginning of Jan. 2007?
Kitboy
Joined: July 20, 2006
KitMaker: 258 posts
AeroScale: 256 posts
Posted: Tuesday, November 21, 2006 - 07:00 PM UTC
I like these kind of groupbuilds on a particular subject, but since my stash is big enough as far as I am concerned I do not wish to buy a kit for this theme. Going through the lot I found these subjects which (I think) were in service during April 1917:
- Airco DH 2 Eduard;
- Sopwith 1,5 Strutter Roden (bomber version -> could transfer to 2
seater) Roden;
- DFW CV (1st prod. batch) Karaya;
- Albatros CIII Eduard;
- Nieuport 17 Eduard.
Don't have enough information about "Bloody April" (yet) to know if there is a good match between these aircraft, so if anyone has any suggestions, please let me know.
Greetings, Nico
- Airco DH 2 Eduard;
- Sopwith 1,5 Strutter Roden (bomber version -> could transfer to 2
seater) Roden;
- DFW CV (1st prod. batch) Karaya;
- Albatros CIII Eduard;
- Nieuport 17 Eduard.
Don't have enough information about "Bloody April" (yet) to know if there is a good match between these aircraft, so if anyone has any suggestions, please let me know.
Greetings, Nico
betheyn
Senior Editor
#019
Joined: October 14, 2004
KitMaker: 4,560 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, November 22, 2006 - 12:05 AM UTC
E.mail away Stephen.
Andy
Andy
HunterCottage
#116
Joined: December 19, 2001
KitMaker: 1,717 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, November 22, 2006 - 12:43 AM UTC
Thanks Stephen for the info!! After I posted my question I did a little looking and came up with that a Nieuport 17 might just fit the bill, seeing you bring it up sways me towards that direction. Especially if Eduard already has decals and such available... if he did in reality fly a 17 then... Now for the victim.
HunterCottage
#116
Joined: December 19, 2001
KitMaker: 1,717 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, November 22, 2006 - 01:28 AM UTC
I'm going to have to pick another ace. Baracca flew mostly recon during april 1917 in a Spad 7. 26 april 1917 he turned back to his Nieuport 17 and did some ballon-busting. As far as I understand the whole idea for the build was to have a dogfight pair...
Lucky13
Joined: June 01, 2006
KitMaker: 1,707 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, November 22, 2006 - 01:54 AM UTC
Young Master Stephen.
What do you know about Charles Eugene Jules Marie Nungesser whereabouts and so on for that period? I was going to build his machine, but I see there's a gap between 20 Dec 1916 when he shot down an enemy aircraft at Touy-le-Grand and 01 May 1917 when shot down an Albatros D.III at Poperinghe. Was this maybe one of his off duty periods beacuse being wounded??
What do you know about Charles Eugene Jules Marie Nungesser whereabouts and so on for that period? I was going to build his machine, but I see there's a gap between 20 Dec 1916 when he shot down an enemy aircraft at Touy-le-Grand and 01 May 1917 when shot down an Albatros D.III at Poperinghe. Was this maybe one of his off duty periods beacuse being wounded??
betheyn
Senior Editor#019
Joined: October 14, 2004
KitMaker: 4,560 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, November 22, 2006 - 05:37 AM UTC
Trying to find out who shot down who is hard work. Then trying to find profiles of the chosen aircraft is next to impossible. I really don't want to build a Albatros D.III, but it seems that they were either shooting down everything or being shoot down themselves :-) . It would probably help if i knew what i was doing 
.
The builds should be a piece of cake compared to the research :-) .
Andy (going round in circles)
Edit, Thanks Stephen, the e/mail has helped a lot.
.The builds should be a piece of cake compared to the research :-) .
Andy (going round in circles)
Edit, Thanks Stephen, the e/mail has helped a lot.
betheyn
Senior Editor#019
Joined: October 14, 2004
KitMaker: 4,560 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, November 22, 2006 - 06:25 PM UTC
12 hours later, i have finally got it 
.
My first ace was going to be Manfred Von Richthofen's younger brother Lothar, but while going through the very helpful Jasta 11 rosta that Stephen e/mailed me, i have now decided on Ltn. K. Allmenröder who shot down a B.E. 2 at 10.35 on the 2nd April near Angres, SW Lens, in his Albatros D.III.
Aztec have done a 1/48 decal set for his aircraft, and Aeroclub produce a 1/48 B.E. 2. Roden are apparently releasing a B.E. 2 in the future but there is no date set on their website yet.
Now i can take my brain out of gear, before it overheats :-) .
Thanks Stephen.
Andy
.My first ace was going to be Manfred Von Richthofen's younger brother Lothar, but while going through the very helpful Jasta 11 rosta that Stephen e/mailed me, i have now decided on Ltn. K. Allmenröder who shot down a B.E. 2 at 10.35 on the 2nd April near Angres, SW Lens, in his Albatros D.III.
Aztec have done a 1/48 decal set for his aircraft, and Aeroclub produce a 1/48 B.E. 2. Roden are apparently releasing a B.E. 2 in the future but there is no date set on their website yet.
Now i can take my brain out of gear, before it overheats :-) .
Thanks Stephen.
Andy
JackFlash
Joined: January 25, 2004
KitMaker: 11,669 posts
AeroScale: 11,011 posts
Posted: Wednesday, November 22, 2006 - 06:43 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Young Master Stephen.
What do you know about Charles Eugene Jules Marie Nungesser whereabouts and so on for that period? I was going to build his machine, but I see there's a gap between 20 Dec 1916 when he shot down an enemy aircraft at Touy-le-Grand and 01 May 1917 when shot down an Albatros D.III at Poperinghe. Was this maybe one of his off duty periods beacuse being wounded??
One of the Over the Front articles has a piece on Nungesser by his great nephew...(?) There maybe something there.
JackFlash
Joined: January 25, 2004
KitMaker: 11,669 posts
AeroScale: 11,011 posts
Posted: Friday, December 08, 2006 - 04:34 PM UTC
Greetings folks just a Gentle reminder that Jan. 3 is coming. I have been writing up some defining perameters...
jRatz
Joined: March 06, 2004
KitMaker: 1,171 posts
AeroScale: 151 posts
Posted: Sunday, December 10, 2006 - 08:02 AM UTC
I've been reading several books on the period -- Harts's "Bloody April" and Revell's "British Single Seat Fighter Sqdns ..." and groping around the Internet. My personal library has an extensive WW1 section, but it is mostly general history or ground ....
I build British 1/48 & have for the period kits of the DH2, Pup, FE2b, RE8, N16, N17, Strutter, BE2c. On the German side, I obtained the Planet Rumpler C.IV and an Eduard Alb D.III
Now my preference would be a Brit Ace downing the Rumpler, but most combats I have read seem to involve DFW or Alb 2-seaters.
Another option is a Brit 2-seater & a German Ace -- I hope the rules don't care whether the Ace survives the combat. Given that, I have gravitated to Vzfw Sebastian Festner of Jasta 11.
On 13 April he shot down RE.8 A3199 of 59 Sqdn (2 Lts Watson & Lane) and FE.2b A784 of 25 Sqdn (no names yet).
On 25 April, Festner was shot down by a 1-1/2 Strutter of 43 Sqdn (pilot?, Obs Lt Dickson).
Festner's aircraft -- evidently Alb.DIII 2251/16. I have seen comments that his aircraft was (1) "all red" (2) factory finish (what is that?) (3) never photographed. So, does anyone have any reliable references on Festner's aircraft ? Or some best guesses ?
The 3 Brit a/c:
-- the RE.8 or FE.2b are easy -- I have serial #'s, but I do not have any unit/individual markings, if indeed there were any. Anyone have some help ?
-- for the Strutter, I have nothing -- so does anyone have any more info on this particular combat/aircraft/etc ??
I'll still be researching, but I thought I'd throw this out to stimulate some conversation ...
John
I build British 1/48 & have for the period kits of the DH2, Pup, FE2b, RE8, N16, N17, Strutter, BE2c. On the German side, I obtained the Planet Rumpler C.IV and an Eduard Alb D.III
Now my preference would be a Brit Ace downing the Rumpler, but most combats I have read seem to involve DFW or Alb 2-seaters.
Another option is a Brit 2-seater & a German Ace -- I hope the rules don't care whether the Ace survives the combat. Given that, I have gravitated to Vzfw Sebastian Festner of Jasta 11.
On 13 April he shot down RE.8 A3199 of 59 Sqdn (2 Lts Watson & Lane) and FE.2b A784 of 25 Sqdn (no names yet).
On 25 April, Festner was shot down by a 1-1/2 Strutter of 43 Sqdn (pilot?, Obs Lt Dickson).
Festner's aircraft -- evidently Alb.DIII 2251/16. I have seen comments that his aircraft was (1) "all red" (2) factory finish (what is that?) (3) never photographed. So, does anyone have any reliable references on Festner's aircraft ? Or some best guesses ?
The 3 Brit a/c:
-- the RE.8 or FE.2b are easy -- I have serial #'s, but I do not have any unit/individual markings, if indeed there were any. Anyone have some help ?
-- for the Strutter, I have nothing -- so does anyone have any more info on this particular combat/aircraft/etc ??
I'll still be researching, but I thought I'd throw this out to stimulate some conversation ...
John
JackFlash
Joined: January 25, 2004
KitMaker: 11,669 posts
AeroScale: 11,011 posts
Posted: Sunday, December 10, 2006 - 09:52 AM UTC
Quoted Text
I've been reading several books on the period -- Harts's "Bloody April" and Revell's "British Single Seat Fighter Sqdns ..." and groping around the Internet. My personal library has an extensive WW1 section, but it is mostly general history or ground ....
On 25 April, Festner was shot down by a 1-1/2 Strutter of 43 Sqdn (pilot?, Obs Lt Dickson)...I'll still be researching, but I thought I'd throw this out to stimulate some conversation ... John
Hey John,
The credit was actually given to Anti-aircraft. "On 25 April 1917, Vzfw. Sebastian Festner is KIA over Gavrelle, hit by Anti-aircraft and breaks up in the British lines in Albatros D.III 2251/16 at 9.15 hours." From "The Jasta Files of Rick Duiven"
Kitboy
Joined: July 20, 2006
KitMaker: 258 posts
AeroScale: 256 posts
Posted: Sunday, December 10, 2006 - 05:05 PM UTC
John
Quoted Text
I'm reading Peter Hart's "Bloody April, Slaughter in the Skies over Arras, 1917" trying to figure out what I can do ...
Started yesterday evening reading this book. So far nice to read. Wonder if I get inspired..
Nico
jRatz
Joined: March 06, 2004
KitMaker: 1,171 posts
AeroScale: 151 posts
Posted: Monday, December 11, 2006 - 06:25 AM UTC
Nico,
Saw your post on the WW! mailing list.
I think you'll find the kits you have fit well in Apr 17.
John
Saw your post on the WW! mailing list.
I think you'll find the kits you have fit well in Apr 17.
John
jRatz
Joined: March 06, 2004
KitMaker: 1,171 posts
AeroScale: 151 posts
Posted: Monday, December 11, 2006 - 06:31 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Hey John,
The credit was actually given to Anti-aircraft. "On 25 April 1917, Vzfw. Sebastian Festner is KIA over Gavrelle, hit by Anti-aircraft and breaks up in the British lines in Albatros D.III 2251/16 at 9.15 hours." From "The Jasta Files of Rick Duiven"
Well, drat !!! I had two refs - one said the Strutter from 43 Sqdn, the other just said "crash". Thanks for the Jasta 11 record, I'll work with that -- at least it filled in the blanks on the FE2b on 13 April.
I suppose I could assume he was in combat with 43 Sqdn when the flak got him ?? Does that count ??
I'll do some more research, but again, any help on his Alb color/markings and either the RE8 or FE2b markings would be appreciated.
John
Kitboy
Joined: July 20, 2006
KitMaker: 258 posts
AeroScale: 256 posts
Posted: Tuesday, December 12, 2006 - 01:12 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Nico,
Saw your post on the WW! mailing list.
I think you'll find the kits you have fit well in Apr 17.
Well, to be honest, not quite. My goals was NOT to buy a kit for this. I have more or less put an embargo on myself at the moment on buying new kits. If I would want to finish the stash I got now, it would take me quit some years regarding the time it takes me to finish one.
But most people suggested to buy an Albators DIII... Something I do not intend to do. I concentrate on the book now as far as "Bloody April" is concerned.
In this I do have a question. Since "Bloody April" is not only linked to this period but also to the Battle of Arras. Shouldn't subjects be directly linked to this battle?
Greetings, Nico
jRatz
Joined: March 06, 2004
KitMaker: 1,171 posts
AeroScale: 151 posts
Posted: Tuesday, December 12, 2006 - 05:52 AM UTC
Nico,
"Bloody April" and Arras are already linked.
The British plan for Arras included highly (overly) aggressive aerial activity, primarily for the artillery spotting aircraft necessary to ensure the success of the pre-assault barrages.
This placed the spotters over the lines and the scouts to protect them and the Germans to remove them all in the same place ...
The British Command was willing to trade planes and pilots to support the ground asault ...
At that time, the RFC was on the technological downswing and the Germans on the upswing. Although the RAF had the numbers, they didn't have the training/experience or equipment.
As to kits, your Nieuport 17 vs either the DFW CV or Albatros CIII should do nicely -- shouldn't have to buy anything.
John.
PS: We had a lot of folks vote for this campaign idea -- where are they ???
"Bloody April" and Arras are already linked.
The British plan for Arras included highly (overly) aggressive aerial activity, primarily for the artillery spotting aircraft necessary to ensure the success of the pre-assault barrages.
This placed the spotters over the lines and the scouts to protect them and the Germans to remove them all in the same place ...
The British Command was willing to trade planes and pilots to support the ground asault ...
At that time, the RFC was on the technological downswing and the Germans on the upswing. Although the RAF had the numbers, they didn't have the training/experience or equipment.
As to kits, your Nieuport 17 vs either the DFW CV or Albatros CIII should do nicely -- shouldn't have to buy anything.
John.
PS: We had a lot of folks vote for this campaign idea -- where are they ???
JackFlash
Joined: January 25, 2004
KitMaker: 11,669 posts
AeroScale: 11,011 posts
Posted: Tuesday, December 12, 2006 - 12:06 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Nico,
"Bloody April" and Arras are already linked.
The British plan for Arras included highly (overly) aggressive aerial activity, primarily for the artillery spotting aircraft necessary to ensure the success of the pre-assault barrages...As to kits, your Nieuport 17 vs either the DFW CV or Albatros CIII should do nicely -- shouldn't have to buy anything. John.
PS: We had a lot of folks vote for this campaign idea -- where are they ???
Probably over on the Air Campaign thread wondering...where did those wingnuts go? We got em fooled John.
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