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World War II: Germany
Aircraft of Germany in WWII.
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JG-54 Grunherz camouflage?
Lucky13
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Posted: Sunday, December 31, 2006 - 05:22 PM UTC
Always had a soft spot for JG-52 and JG-54. What I'd like to know is how you'd paint this camouflage seen here on these 109's?
alpha_tango
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Posted: Sunday, December 31, 2006 - 05:47 PM UTC
Hi Jan

If you find out, tell me ... I would like to try that one on my new ICM Bf 109 F-2

I guess you will have to try your airbrushing skills, because the drawings do not match the pix I know (the dark lines and grey spots are a little more fuzzy, so you cannot mask them off)

happy new year

Steffen
betheyn
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Posted: Sunday, December 31, 2006 - 05:50 PM UTC
Wheres Nige (Lampie) when you need him, he would love to try this camo scheme :-) :-) .
Yes Nige its a challenge .
Andy
Lucky13
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Posted: Sunday, December 31, 2006 - 06:10 PM UTC
Nothing compared to this one then from JG-54, the Black 12 flown By Peter Bremer....
alpha_tango
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Posted: Sunday, December 31, 2006 - 06:21 PM UTC
WELLLL .. do not trust decal sheets (profiles ...) ... especially not Errormaster and Company

This is not an attack against that company, just a fact ---> if you shoot out many sheets you make many mistakes .. I have a lot of their Lw sheets

I personally prefer to have at least one full plane picture to add some own educated guess .. because in the end modelling is some kind of "art" (just ask J-L) you'll seldom have all around colour shots of your chosen object

just my 2 ct

cheers

Steffen
Lucky13
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Posted: Sunday, December 31, 2006 - 06:25 PM UTC
I here where you come from Steffen. Nothing beat a good and clear photograph....
Lucky13
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Posted: Sunday, December 31, 2006 - 07:09 PM UTC
Here's the same machine drawn Claes Sundin in 2002. Look at the difference in camouflage....
alpha_tango
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Posted: Sunday, December 31, 2006 - 07:32 PM UTC
Looks a little better

My guess from the profile: it is a "desertized " Bf 109 from the manufacturer. delivered to an eastern fron unit (JG54) where it was "re-painted" to fit the local environment... there were lots of alterations (even that the manufacturer added other camo colours .. famous is the picture series of JG 3 and also some of JG 5)

OTOH JG 54 and 51 were famous for their home made camo ....

Still .. better look for a pic of your machine and draw your own conclusions .. Profiles are already artists impressions ...

cheers

Steffen
Lucky13
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Posted: Sunday, December 31, 2006 - 07:44 PM UTC
Thanks Steffen, your inputs are always welcome....
TedMamere
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Posted: Sunday, December 31, 2006 - 08:51 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Nothing compared to this one then from JG-54, the Black 12 flown By Peter Bremer....


Hi Jan!

Actually, I think Black 12 is easier to do than the first three! When there is some kind of pattern in a paintsheme it is more difficult to reproduce something realistic... but I have an idea on that one.

Steffen and Jan, My plan is also to do such a camo for the new ICM F-2. Are you interested in some kind of informal "mini Group Build"? I would love to benefit from your Bf 109 knowledge and ressources Steffen. And this could be the occasion to see your first model Jan!

Jean-Luc
alpha_tango
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Posted: Sunday, December 31, 2006 - 10:19 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Steffen and Jan, My plan is also to do such a camo for the new ICM F-2. Are you interested in some kind of informal "mini Group Build"? I would love to benefit from your Bf 109 knowledge and ressources Steffen. And this could be the occasion to see your first model Jan!

Jean-Luc


Well, eerrrrr

actually i wanted to build Max Hellmuth Osterman, as his crate was thoroghly covered in recent Luftwffe im Fokus issues (photes from many(!) angles: edition 5 pg.30-34, edition 9 pg. 46-47) and it is a little less diffiult ..

BTW as a warning .. do no use the ICM decals ..

best wishes

Steffen
TedMamere
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Posted: Sunday, December 31, 2006 - 10:56 PM UTC

Quoted Text

BTW as a warning .. do no use the ICM decals ..


Hi Steffen!

Even with a coat of liquid decal film?

Do you have real pictures and more infos about the plane that is depicted on ICM's F-2 Boxart?



Below are pictures I found on the net. The paintshemes are similar but not identical. I guess some "Artistical License" can be used here...









These are mainly Emils but the pattern used is almost the same...

Jean-Luc
alpha_tango
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Posted: Sunday, December 31, 2006 - 11:18 PM UTC
Hi Jean-Luc

well if you look closely you will recognize the boxart is no JG 54 a/c but JG 3 .. I have the Prien books and will have a look .. but it may take a while ...

cheers

Steffen
Removed by original poster on 01/02/07 - 02:26:02 (GMT).
Removed by original poster on 01/02/07 - 02:27:53 (GMT).
alpha_tango
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Posted: Monday, January 01, 2007 - 12:27 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Even with a coat of liquid decal film?


If you ask me ... just throw them in the bin .. .there are more than sufficient Bf 109 decals out there .. it is more difficult when you want to build a MiG-3 or Yak-9


Quoted Text

Do you have real pictures and more infos about the plane that is depicted on ICM's F-2 Boxart?



Jean-Luc


I found only 2 pix in "Stab und I./JG 3" which are repeated in "Jagdfliegerverbände vol.6 /I" One shows the tail with tally the other is a 10 o'clock shot which shows part of the hood until the "< o". the wing and some staff obsuring the camo. IMO it is only a (very) dark net over light blue.

HTH

cheers

Steffen
Lucky13
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Posted: Monday, January 01, 2007 - 01:39 AM UTC
When would this start and end then Master Jean-Luc, would it be something ongoing until finished? This would be my first victim, I already have the decals....Aeromaster 48-01 from 1993.
TedMamere
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Posted: Monday, January 01, 2007 - 02:22 PM UTC

Quoted Text

When would this start and end then Master Jean-Luc, would it be something ongoing until finished?


Hi Jan!

My first idea was a Group Build based only on ICM's new Bf 109 F-2 kit but we can of course extend it to every Bf 109... including your G-6!
As it would be an informal GB, there would be no start and no end date and of course no ribbon to win at the end. It would be nice to have Steffen with us as "Luftwaffe Experte" so he could point out the mistakes in our builds.

Below are profiles I found in my refs. The first one is the same plane as the one depicted on ICM's box cover. Steffen is right and the side camo is composed of what appears to be a grey netting over light blue. The second is another profile of Bremer's Black 12, very similar to the one Jan posted earlier. The third one is Black 3 of 2./JG54 and the last one Yellow 4 of 6./JG 54. The latter is my favorite and it's the one I would do if we start the Group Build. It's a F-2 flown by Staffelkapitän Lt. Hans Beisswenger in July 1941. I have the appropriate spare decals for this one...



Jean-Luc
Lucky13
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Posted: Monday, January 01, 2007 - 02:34 PM UTC
Cool Jean-Luc! I better hurry up and get my stuff sorted so that I can start.
Nice profiles indeed! I've been thinking about getting decals for any 109 with number 13 as for my callsign....just for fun. :-)

Like Gunther Rall's Black 13 seen here.

SGTJKJ
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Posted: Monday, January 01, 2007 - 02:58 PM UTC
Wow! There are some very nice profiles in this tread! A true expert discussion Very inspiring.
I could not help noticing that on of the JG 54 Bf 109 is carrying a bomb.

That would actually qualify it for the "WWII down low tank busting campaign". Notch notch If we ever manage to get it up on aeroscale's campaign page

I have a Bf 109 G-6 in my pile of unbuild kits, so I might join in in an informal campaign. However, it could be a good idea to make a pure and "real" 109 campaign with official tread, ribbon and everything. I would like to participate and help out, but since I am already running two campaigns I will not be the JadgGeschwader leader on this one

Lucky13
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Posted: Monday, January 01, 2007 - 03:01 PM UTC
This one is nice as well. Heinrich Bartels G-6 Red 13
alpha_tango
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Posted: Monday, January 01, 2007 - 03:05 PM UTC

Quoted Text

My first idea was a Group Build based only on ICM's new Bf 109 F-2 kit but we can of course extend it to every Bf 109... including your G-6!
As it would be an informal GB, there would be no start and no end date and of course no ribbon to win at the end. It would be nice to have Steffen with us as "Luftwaffe Experte" so he could point out the mistakes in our builds.


Hi Jean-Luc and Jan

I like the idea of a ICM Bf 109 Group build ... I remember the I-16 build with Rowan being a great fun and it helped us both to go along. I would not extend it beyond that. There are hundreds of decals for Bf 109 F-2 out there and the kit is "cheap" (if there is such thing), a friend bought it for around 7 Euro from Ukraina and while it is surely more expensive in Germany or France or the UK, you will not have to sell an arm (or more) to get it ...

Regarding the "Luftwaffe Experte" ... while I have a certain knowledge and my books shelf beeing ok on Luftwaffe topics, I would not call myself an "Experte", I am more an interested layman.

I will not meassure the kit and find out it is half a scale inch short or 0,2368 mm wide in span. I am always interested to make my models as accurate as I can, but curiosity killed not only the cat (luckily not Carlos') but also many modelling projects. This will be OOB except of cockpit and wheels maybe. I still feel the horror from my Fw 200 project residing in the box since a year or so .. it has to be finished ... one day

if you (we) decide to start such a group build, we should maybe start a new thread (this one got way ...) to get some more Friedrich-freaks on board

what do you think?

best wishes

Steffen
P.S. while we are at it ... this year will be the 90th anyversary of the octobre revolution ... maybe a good reason to start a "Red Stars" group build (maybe extending until today, but at least until the early 1990s) ... just a thought
alpha_tango
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Posted: Monday, January 01, 2007 - 03:24 PM UTC
Hi All

another very interesting source for such camo is Luftwaffe im Fokus Ed.9 (here is a short German Review)

The Bf 109E of Hubert Mütherich is presented in colour photographs and profile .... (pic in my review)

BTW LiF is a very useful source for all interested in Luftwaffe ...

cheers

Steffen
Lucky13
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Posted: Monday, January 01, 2007 - 03:52 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

My first idea was a Group Build based only on ICM's new Bf 109 F-2 kit but we can of course extend it to every Bf 109... including your G-6!
As it would be an informal GB, there would be no start and no end date and of course no ribbon to win at the end. It would be nice to have Steffen with us as "Luftwaffe Experte" so he could point out the mistakes in our builds.



...if you (we) decide to start such a group build, we should maybe start a new thread (this one got way ...) to get some more Friedrich-freaks on board

Steffen, I wouldn't mind to slim it down to just the F of the 109, not at all. But how about if we did an Eastern Front groupbuild to start with and include E/F/G and the K of the 109 in it?
Always open for any suggestions fellas....
SGTJKJ
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Posted: Monday, January 01, 2007 - 03:54 PM UTC
Can you recommend any internet vendor for the LiF books? Preferably one in the EU to avoid any tax problems.

If we are going to do a group build we might as well make it an official build with ribbon and everything and include all Bf-109s? Or is it just me being to structured now?
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