Oh no, he has ANOTHER campaign proposal!

That's right folks, I'm not comfortable unless I have at least two, preferably three or more campaigns going at once and I just had a new idea:

Then and Now.

This campaign would be showcasing the evolution of aircraft units over time. It would entail at least two aircraft from the same unit over a period of years, I'm thinking at least 20 years between airplanes with a dividing line of 1950. I want this to be as wide open as possible so the builder could do any country, any eras (with those parameters). You could have one kit already built and just do a second one, could team up with someone else, or do (at least) two yourself for the campaign. The units would have to be identifiably the same but, like the US Navy, not necessarily the same number (such as a VF-17 F4U and VF-84 F-14), and from any country. The models should be the same scale if you're doing them both yourself so you can display them together.

What do you all think?

Michael

So my Trans Canada Airlines Constellation could be compared to my Air Canada 787?

Oh boy. The research.

If the start date is sufficiently distant I would be in. Likely with the FAA...

Edit.. I would have to choose 800 NAS. This would be a fun campaign.

Hmm, not a whole lot of interest so far (but thanks Jessie and Richard, both great ideas!) Anyone else?

Michael

Hi,

I like this idea, there was a display at scale model world in telford uk last november where they had models showing the history of 3 sqn RAF I think it was, covering from the great war up to the modern day, so there were sopwith pups, hurricanes and harriers as well as every other type.

I think that not limiting the period would be a good idea, so any entrant could potentially show the first aircraft type and then the current aircraft type whether they be 30 years or 100 years apart. It would also not be limited to that and you could show any combination you wanted to do, but obviously it would have to be the same unit being the unique aspect.

Also I know that lots of units in countries like the US and UK, but also those of germany, russia, spain etc etc have used aircraft from the same manufacturer like grumman, dehavilland, dassault, mcdonnell douglas, etc etc, so those entrants that like specific makes of aircraft could show a grumman panther next to a tomcat for example.

Hopefully this idea will get more support as I think it adds a bit more to the usual group builds, like the lottery idea it forces the entrant to do research a bit more than usual and you get to learn a bit of history at the same time.

Anyway, that's my 2p worth,

Rich

Richard,

You definitely get the idea. I don't want to limit the periods at all and, upon further thought, I think I'll get rid of the 1950 dividing line. I'd propose that as long as the aircraft are 20 years apart and from the identifiably same unit (as in squadron or wing, not just the same air force), they qualify. I really want this to be as open as possible but I think the 20 year minimum makes for more interesting comparisons. As always, however, I'm open to persuasion!

Michael

I like the concept Michael, and depending on the time fame I would try to join with a couple of RAAF subjects. You might need to consider a longer time frame than the usual 6 months to allow for folks who want to build 2 kits.

Cheers, D

I will be in on this, no time period cut off would work.

This wouldn't work very well with the modern RCAF, since they've been flying F-18s since 1981. The difference between then and now would be minimal. I think we need a supplemental rule that long-service aircraft should be avoided.

Of course, a B-52 from 1962 wore a much different uniform from the B-52s of 2012 so perhaps the rule can relax in certain circumstances. Besides which, anyone crazy enough to do two B-52s shouldn't be interfered with

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No._56_Squadron_RAF
The link that I have posted for No 56 Squadron RAF shows the info that is (one of many!) out there on the web and which we could use to chose aircraft from ie a WWI and the Cold War for the then and now.

Bristol Bulldog sitting next to a FRG2 Phantom from the same squadron on the runway would be one example.

Nationality,Squadron and Aircraft development could all be included under the 20 year time span as well.

I think not everyone is terribly interested in having markings from certain groups, so maybe to increase interest also open it up to pairs of aircraft sharing the same designated name...

P-38 Lightning to F-35 Lightning II
P-47 Thunderbolt to A-10 Thunderbolt II
Hawker Fury to NA FJ-2 Fury or Hawker Sea Fury
Curtiss Hawk P-6 to P-36 or P-40
etc...

or perhaps open it up even to aircraft from the same manufacturer from different time periods.

Now that sounds fun!
A great starting point for anyone thinking of RAF subjects would be Xtradecal. They do several sheets covering a squadron through its history.
Just one example here covering 41sqn from an SE.5a to a Tornado and everything inbetween.... http://www.hannants.co.uk/product/X72138
I have one of the sets in my stash so If I can find it, I'm in.

I'm willing to talk about opening it up to something like that, though it could be tricky to define in the rules. Two aircraft sharing a common designation of some sort (either manufacturer or name or unit), something like that? Kind of makes it a wide open campaign, but that might be good and encourages imagination and research. Also could call for a lot of decisions about what "fits" the concept.

And I agree with Damian that it would need to be longer than six months. Maybe 10 or a year.

Anyway, what do you all think? This seems to be picking up steam now!

Michael

How about,

1. A 30 year time span at any point through history to show relative development and progress(this would cover the lengthy use of some types),

2. Campaign runs for 12 months (to allow two B-52's to be built!!),

3. BUT you can do two aircraft if they share the same designation or name no matter how far apart in time,

4. And in all cases they have to be from the same squadron or wing.

I think that covers most ideas here,

Rich

Count me out if #4 is included as a requirement on top of the other 3. I think it should be a situation where you are either following the lineage of an air group or a manufacturer/designation, not both...

#4 makes it prohibitive for some in terms of having to go out and find/buy aftermarket decals (which may or may not exist) for just about any person who takes part in the contest, and I would prefer not to go out an spend an additional $30-40 on two kits worth of decals and shipping if the quality of the kit's decals don't necessitate it.

Richard, thanks for setting it out that way! I was thinking along the lines of 20 years (so someone could do WWI and WWII if they wished), but I agree with Van about not adding number 4 on top of the rest, I'd say it would be an alternative to the others.

I like how this is shaping up!

Michael

No worries,

I was just thinking out loud about how the rules could be outlined for the campaign as a visual aid of sorts.

How about two general rules instead,

1. Two aircraft from the same unit, no more than 20 years apart,

or,

2. Two aircraft from the same manufacturer, no more than 20 years apart,

This would show the progression in development etc, rather than forcing an entrant to have to spend lots of cash on extra decals that might not be available in order to keep it in the same unit regardless.

This way you could do a Mig 15 and a 17, or a hurricane then a typhoon from WW2, or you could do a gloster meteor and then a hawker hunter, or a saber replaced by a starfighter etc etc.

Rich

How about two general rules instead,

1. Two aircraft from the same unit.minimum 20 years apart

or,

2. Two aircraft from the same manufacturer, more than 20 years apart.

I'd go for the last one except for example Hawker built a Fury in 1930, Then another completely different aircraft in 1946, these would fit with the spirit but be ineligible. Count me in anyway, I did it a few years ago with 36 Sqn RAF. Needs some thought to come up with a good combination

Good! My suggestions:

1. 2 aircraft from the same unit (number, name or unit badge) at least 20 years apart.

2. 2 aircraft of a similar type from the same manufacturer at least 20 years apart.

3. 2 aircraft with the same name/designation at least 20 years apart.

Andrew, I think the Fury idea would fit here if you do a Hawker Fury and a Hawker SEA Fury. You can fit 20 years in there, right? Of course, if everyone thinks 20 is too long we could make it 15 or so. I'm kind of trying to avoid an immediate successor aircraft (like a Hurricane and Typhoon), I want to see some significant differences to make it interesting, like biplane to monoplane or piston to jet.

Other comments?

Michael

My suggestion, make it a buddy build if you want.. One person builds one aircraft and another the second one from the same unit. That way the cost could be reduced if that was an issue.

Cheers
Warren

A quick hunt through my decals turned up the Xtradecal sheet I was thinking of.
It covers RAF 23Sqn from 1940-90. Earliest aircraft is a Blenheim 1, then a Boston and a Mossie. For jets it gives me a Javelin, Lightning, 2 Phantoms and a Tornado. Of those choices I have a Mossie, Lightning, Javelin and Phantom in the kit stash so I'm good and ready for this one!

What do yuo mean with 30 years?

a. 30 years in between the first flight of the two planes
b. 30 years in between that squadron/unit be equiped for the first time with that plane
c. 30 years in between dumping the first plane and startign to fly the second one ...


Or how everything can becoem difficult

Count me in! I'll check back later to see what the rules end up being. I love the research campaigns.
-Sean H.

Warren: I have no problem with buddies on this one like we did on the Duel campaign, I think that was fun. Remember, I'm even ok if you only build one model to balance one you already have done! I want to make this a bit less daunting than Duel turned out to be for some.

Drabslab: You ARE making things difficult! I would propose that the two aircraft have to be at least 20 years apart AS MODELLED. So supposing the markings on the models show the aircraft at fairly specific times, that should be able to date them. Now I know that with modern aircraft especially it might be possible to do two of the same type of airplane from the same squadron 20 years apart just with different markings, and if that's what you want to do OK. It's not really the point, but could be fun on its own.

I've lost track of the number of people interested but I think we may have reached 10. I'll work on drafting some rules over the next day or so. I'm looking at a start time sometime in late summer or fall and run for a year. What do you all think?

Mike