Edward, In a way you won big time with a great shared memory with your Dad that has lasted all these years.

Joel

We see where I ended up. Like I said, I just don't worry about contests. I'm still modeling now, as we speak.

I'd enter contests if I could get out places, but I'm way too sick to travel with my kits. I'll stick to posting progress online.

That should NEVER happen under IPMS rules. Period. Accuracy is not a consideration and in every judge's meeting I've been in for the last 30 years, that is stressed. It's why I hate having an "expert"on my team. I'll redirect him forthwith. The type of mg is irrelevant as long as it's placed properly. What to look for, though lacking any points or weighting can be found on lie in the IPMS/USA competition handbook. While specifics may change from national to national, the basic book remains the same.

Again,it's the basics that control most of the winnowing in any class. There have been many times I've looked at the number of entries in a class I was assigned with trepidation. After a first close up pass, the trepidation may very well be which one is least bad? Or the top three may have very well jumped right out.

I agree, but everyone knows 'someone' it's happened to. It really can put a damper on enthusiasm.

Hi again

If that's true, I have to say as someone on the outside looking in now, it seems bizarre that accuracy isn't taken into consideration...

All the best

Rowan

That would open up a whole can of worms.
For example, those who build targets would all argue about what the correct colour olive drab should be .
Andy

Hi Andy

But seriously, reading this thread, I fear the lid was lost years ago...

All the best

Rowan

From the IPMS/USA Competition Handbook:
"Accuracy

Absolute accuracy is a noble, but probably unattainable, goal. Despite the fact that no scale model is ever 100% accurate, some people urge that models be judged principally on their accuracy. This is a real minefield. While gross inaccuracy is easy to spot in some instances, the situation quickly becomes murky past obvious things and can lead to unfairness in judging. For example, suppose one of the aircraft judges spent the better part of twenty years as the crew chief of a particular aircraft. That judge will probably be able to find inaccuracies of one sort or another on every model of that type of aircraft entered in a category. But, there's a real risk he will unfairly penalize those who entered those models if he judges solely on the basis of accuracy as he can readily spot their flaws while he may miss inaccuracies in other aircraft types with which he does not have the same level of expertise. Along the same lines, modelers who know the minute aspects of a subject often mistakenly believe judges also have similar detailed knowledge. This may or may not be true. It's simply not possible for all IPMS judges to match the expertise developed by our disparate and incredibly knowledgeable membership. The Chief Judge and Class Head Judges take pains every year to remind the judges to be aware of these problems and to be fair to all on this issue. You can also help yourself by not assuming the judges know all the details you know. Help them and yourself by putting such information on the entry sheet or any other display material you put with your model. Judges are instructed read that stuff and it could make the difference for you.

Lest we get too wrapped up in the accuracy debate, remember that IPMS/USA judges concentrate first on the modeling aspects. A model with every component built absolutely accurately probably still won't win if seams between the components aren't filled properly. Conversely, a superbly built model containing an inaccuracy could win if it is, in all other respects, the best model in the category.

Source

So I LOVE when threads like these come along, as it's an opportunity to discuss model shows in general.

My chief question that I always ask:

Why do we need a contest in the first place?

Generally, I feel like it's one of those "well that's always the way we've done it." Sort of things.

I have THROWN AWAY boxes full of trophies from winning at shows, so why do I need more trophies?

Model SHOWS should be just that, a SHOW where I get to SHOW-off my work. Not hide my name for fear of some judging favoritism.

I get that, at least as far as the US is concerned, that the contest will never go away, but man, we really should bw working on getting the word out there via more displays, and just showing off how freaking cool this hobby has become.

Adding in the expense of trophies and the time for judging makes having MORE shows (at least in their current form) a tough sell.

As far as judging systems are concerned, no matter what way you go - 1/2/3, G/S/B, popular vote or otherwise, there are flaws in each system and SOMEBODY is going to go away upset.

The best example I always like to cite was John Vojtech's 1:32 F-15C at the last Columbus (OH) nationals - 2009 I think it was.

That was one of the most gobsmackingly amazing pieces of modeling artistry I have ever seen! But because it had a couple of minor flaws (I think the scissor leg on the nose strut wasn't straight) it took second place.

By the letter of the law, this was the correct outcome, but it doesn't change that it was the best model in the room and one of the most amazing models I have ever seen.

I think there are merits to contests as it tends to promote "better" modeling (fix your flaws, apply your decals better, etc.), but for that one benefit there are too many other detractions.

Typically only the best modelers enter in the contest, which means there are tons of models that aren't making it out to be seen and enjoyed. While they may not be as well made as your typical contest entry, I'd still rather see them than not.

Only certain models end up entered in contests - only the kits that lend themselves to contest modeling that go to gether well and are free of big flaws end up on the contest tables. I'd sure rather see some variety than an endless string of Tamiya F-16s, just because they build easily.

The uninitiated come to shows and think that contest modeling is what it's all about and immediately come to the belief that "I could never do that" and as a result never give it a shot. Wouldn't we be better served if there were all levels of modeling on display? Modeling would be SO much more approachable!

Folks, all contest discussion aside, SHOWS - which around here seem to only come in the IPMS/AMPS/NNL variety are pretty much our only avenue to promote the hobby at a grass roots level. I believe that the contest, while a long established tradition is actually a HUGE detraction to the hobby right now and something we should seriously look at scaling back...

Or at LEAST figure out how to better promote the display/show aspect.

I'll be at the show in Huntsville, AL this weekend and will be entering my latest model, but putting it in as display only, proudly displaying my name on the entry placard.

I don't need more trophies, but I sure do like to share and enjoy the hobby!

Look forward to more discussion!

Hi Al

Thanks for sharing the section of the rules. The gist of them is only common sense - but it's disappointing that they don't cover the obvious follow-on example of how to compare two equally well built models, where one is clearly more accurate to someone with even token knowledge than the other. Hopefully the effort towards accuracy is to be acknowledged and rewarded? To allow a "grossly inaccurate" model to come off better just risks making an ass of the rules. I don't envy judges.

Of course though, returning my initial point, I absolutely agree with Paul when he questions the need for competition in modelling at all.

But, so long as the competitions make the people entering them happy, that's fine by me - the trouble is, going by some of the points made in this thread, that's far from always the case.

All the best

Rowan

As I 1st alluded to when I was a contest chairman & judge before there was a IPMS rule book, we stressed basics 1st. More then 75% of the entered models were eliminated on the 1st round that way. It always amazed me that so many people entered models with such basic mistakes. Biggest issues was always glue marks and seams, followed by unlevel wings, and landing gear not square causing the plane to list to one side. That's building 101. An even application of paint especially in free hand camo schemes with controlled over spray took it's toll as well. From what I can remember, we rarely had more then 1/2 a dozen models from that point on to evaluate. Those basic errors were that common. If the judges can spot those glaring errors in less then 30 seconds, why can't the builder, who studies his model all through the build process doesn't? Decaling was another basic that just was abused. Silvering has never been acceptable, yet it always showed up on some otherwise very good builds. Back in the good old days we trimmed decals so that virtually all the clear was cut off including the insides of letters.

From the sounds of this thread, judging and contests in general sure have changed, and not for the better. Now that's a shame. The whole idea of so many categories was that there would be that many more ribbons awarded. Sure we had a lot of multiple winners, but we also had a lot of guys going home with a ribbon.

I was still a club member long after I stopped entering contests at any level. When we had our club contests, I just took a separate table to display my work, and signed as such.

Joel

Having judged a number of times - up to and including at the national level - I can honestly say I've never seen judging go beyond basic stuff - there's always a construction flaw, seam, silvered decal, uneven paint, or similar niggling fault. And honestly, there's almost always a basic alignment issue - wheels out of alignment, a flap that's spaced different from the other, etc. If you find flaws, you compare them on the ladder of importance (which IPMS publishes), and typically that breaks down the placement.

That said, it's really frustrating to judge like that as it doesn't take into account the artistic merit or extra work that a modeler did. But, as the proponents of the 1/2/3 system will tell you, they see it as the most objective system, as anything else (artistic merit) becomes a very subjective metric.

That said, and to respond to Rowan's agreement, it's not so much that I support doing away with the contest as much as I support the MASSIVE expansion of support for just displaying models in a show - such that you grow that to the point where the contest is a sidelight.

But it's up to us, at least in the US, to have a culture change in our shows.

Hi Paul

Apologies if I overstated your point to coincide with my own.

All the best

Rowan

Paul, I completely agree with the points you made in both of your posts.
Joel

Hi Paul, long time no see.

Got more info on our little brew-ha up here in Oregon. Seems that our entrant had made a couple of rookie mistakes. He should have known better. He took a first place, a best of, and helped judge. So he clearly wasn't a rookie. His 1/72 Skipjack class submarine had several issues, one of the periscopes was crooked and the depth marker decals were poorly dealt with. He didn't see it that way and felt the judges treated him unfairly. The head judge was still a little rattled over it a week and a half later.

No overstatement at all Rowan - more a clarification of my own thoughts.

I sure don't need contests any more, but in an attempt to keep the door open and not just dive into massive, overnight change (surely to result in apoplexy in some), just a gradual shift.

I read about those faults now, and kinda laugh, I used to get all warped about whether everything was perfect - talk about taking the joy out of your modeling.

And it's not that I don't try to build great models, it's more that when I look at them in the display case, I just never look at them with the scrutiny that a judge would - nor would anyone that comes to my house.

It's one of those things where I wonder why I didn't wake up to this sooner.

Just me though...

And yes indeed Mark, LONG time!

Last point first...no matter what you do, some people will not be happy. We see that with the automotive division. Because there are car model contests that have in the neighborhood of 30 car classes, some of the car builders want that many at every show. Clearly that is not financially supportable. Some people are not wired to compete and not win, accepting that on a given day, there was better work present. Some folks are pathological complainers. We had a guy upset that his work took a first, believing there were better models in his class.

Now to accuracy, as I've said before, most models are cut from the final 3 because of basic modeling errors of commission or omission. If I were to be confronted with two equally well built models with no or equal discernable flaws in each and one had corrected flaws and so noted on his sheet, I would go with the corrected model. Te uncorrected one would get the next place down and/or OOB. However, I can't recall once in 30 years of judging where that happened.

Indeed, it is a short coming of the IPMS handbook that weight is not given to errors. this has been discussed ad nauseum at IPMS/USA forums. Near as I can figure, the idea is to give the judging team leeway is weighing the overall model. I guess it's like a court judge having the freedom to choose a sentence based on many factors as opposed to a mandatory sentence.

On to non competitive shows. we've done a few and had moderate success with the general public. Modelers outside the club stay away in droves. We've even invited a club close to us to join in a display that would have included free admission to the New England Air Museum. All of 2 guys showed up to display. We still do a display once a year there, but it's club only and there's no obvious influx of other builders, even though many live nearby. I guess they see no advantage to travelling any distance to look at other people's models if they won't have a chance to enter, spend time with the vendors and enter the raffle.

Contests can be a major financial support to a club and give a sense of purpose. When the old Worcester MA club stopped its contest, membership pretty much locked down at about 5 or 6 guys. They still support other events. The money made at our contest allows us to subsidize IPMS membership with a discount, to provide at least two meal meetings a year, as well as lunch at the air museum event and to provide a donation to the church that provides us a meeting place.

I like the show idea!
Will have to present that to the club I think a club show in a mall would be great exposure for the hobby. I know that the one my RC club put on went over great.

Cheers Rob.

FWIW, North West Scale Modelers puts on a show, no contest, no raffle, no vendor room, we do have a "Make and Take" sponsored by local vendors, at the Museum of Flight in Seattle every February. With support from IPMS Vancover, BC. we show 2500-3000+ models. We benefit from strong Seattle and Tacoma IPMS chapters, as we are NOT a club, IPMS affiliated, or even an orgainzation. I think this is from this year's event NWSM

Justin,

If you feel that one has to be a member to qualify or win
big, why don't you join a club and see what comes out of it.

I still think that it is based on model quality and yes, many
members are top notch model builders.

By the way, this was your first show and you got a silver,
not bad, I would say!

Cheers,
Joe

Guess you missed the part about the OTHER contestants builds being better than the 95 percent of club members that won.or that I use to be a member? Or I've been building on this site for years check the feature section.so I'm not sombody kicking there can around and sobbing because I didn't get gold.I know what I'm talking about.this just amazes me !do you people not see number of post I have or that I'm a moderator on modern forum lol.I've never even seen you on here before.I started this thread as a discussion simply that.throw your hat into another ring sir lol

Justin,

WOW !!!......I simply joined the discussion and suggested.

Oh and complimented you on your win.....what's your problem?

Joe

Sorry didn't feel like it I do apologize it just seems like few have missed the message of what I said.even though I did place I just felt bad for the others because it was just made so blatenly clear that's all.again I do apolagize.

Jessica Cooper wrote:




That's odd - you don't look 50 in that photo . . .

Oh boy tread lightly on the women and age subject