and I did get a silver medel for the one WWII plane that I brought.and only on other none ipms member placed 
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ipms judging slighted?
Keeperofsouls2099
Joined: January 14, 2009
KitMaker: 2,798 posts
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Posted: Sunday, September 29, 2013 - 12:47 PM UTC
So it was my firstimps competition and altough I am not a member it seems to me that the judging is swong more towards members than non members.I also feel that modern aircraft were of no interest as there were many builds besides my own that should have placed.so I guess my question is simple must you be a member to feel the love and by the way 95 percent of the awards in aircraft went to members of that club so what's the point? Geeezzz and I did get a silver medel for the one WWII plane that I brought.and only on other none ipms member placed
and I did get a silver medel for the one WWII plane that I brought.and only on other none ipms member placed 
SgtRam
Editor-at-Large
#197
Joined: March 06, 2011
KitMaker: 3,971 posts
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Posted: Sunday, September 29, 2013 - 01:15 PM UTC
I was just at a show over the weekend, and noticed that almost all the winners were members. I am a member as well, but not active. And to me, it seemed that the judges seemed to know a lot of the winners. Even though the names were hidden from the judges, they all, including the volunteer judges attend "Build Nights", thus I must presume they know what each other are working on, thus the finished models are known to the judges. I did see alot of pieces that to me were amazing builds, that did not even place.
This is just my opinion.
This is just my opinion.
Keeperofsouls2099
Joined: January 14, 2009
KitMaker: 2,798 posts
AeroScale: 2,443 posts
Posted: Sunday, September 29, 2013 - 01:21 PM UTC
Yes sir! I'd also like to mention that all club members won all the raffles one guy eight times the rest 3 to 4 times a pc.no joke I'm sorry I don't have a problem contributing in any way I can but I use to be a member and I'm not going to pay the fees when all I get is a magazine that has pictures of three models and the rest is nothing but members and there home lifes I don't care.
tinbanger
Joined: February 04, 2008
KitMaker: 2,507 posts
AeroScale: 1,814 posts
Posted: Sunday, September 29, 2013 - 02:38 PM UTC
No club meetings for me only the internet!
Jessie_C
Joined: September 03, 2009
KitMaker: 6,965 posts
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Posted: Sunday, September 29, 2013 - 03:10 PM UTC
This is a chronic complaint, and the main reason why I refuse to enter contests.
Holdfast
President
#056
Joined: September 30, 2002
KitMaker: 8,581 posts
AeroScale: 4,913 posts
Posted: Sunday, September 29, 2013 - 07:44 PM UTC
The IPMS UK Nationals, Scale Modelworld competition is for members only, from any nation. In other smaller shows around the country, which are put on by various IPMS clubs, the competitions are open. I too get the feeling that sometimes the club members have their models judge unfairly against the rest! I have been asked to judge at some shows, but I won't do it anymore as at one show some guy came up and tried to sway my decision on the best WWII aircraft model, he was supposed to be judging another category. Judging is supposed to be unbiased, so I told him and explained the merits of the models that I was judging compared to what he wanted me to judge the best. His ultimate argument was that "well it won at every other show it has be in competitions at". Judging is a personal thing but it seems to go with trends. Since you have been able to buy detail sets where you can show every panel on an aircraft open models built this way seem to win? I don't enter competitions, I like to see the clean lines and accomplished paint work of Aircraft models, unless it is in a diorama, but then it needs figures and needs to tell a story and not be a disembodied aircraft with all the panels hanging open.
Heatnzl
#435
Joined: February 14, 2013
KitMaker: 480 posts
AeroScale: 478 posts
Posted: Sunday, September 29, 2013 - 09:26 PM UTC
I was once asked to judge a club competition where I knew, in the main, who had built what. I was honest, but was therefore considered harsh in the points I gave. One model in particular was considered the "winner" but was, to me, poorly made and presented.
There was a running joke after the competition about how low I had scored entries overall.
It may not be overt, but at club level there is pressure and opinion.
Interestingly, I have just been reading an article in an old 'Scale Models' about and by judges who describe the requirements of being a disinterested party.
There was a running joke after the competition about how low I had scored entries overall.
It may not be overt, but at club level there is pressure and opinion.
Interestingly, I have just been reading an article in an old 'Scale Models' about and by judges who describe the requirements of being a disinterested party.
mach1revo
Joined: June 08, 2013
KitMaker: 26 posts
AeroScale: 20 posts
Posted: Sunday, September 29, 2013 - 10:51 PM UTC
Hey Justin it was great to see your work in person!! Just want to say thanks for bringing the collection it was awesome! I hope you dont get discouraged too much by how that show was judged. It was a odd setup. They viewed your whole collection but only selected one that they felt was the best and only judged that one. Weird for a GSB style. If you go to jaxcon next year that is a 123 judged event with separate catagories. During the awards there were several models i felt were slighted. It was a very toughly judged show. Very few gold standard awards. Not many silvers either.
Btw i am not a club member either. Most modern stuff does get ignored. Its usually even worse with my semi truck models. They tend to get overlooked since they are not a hotrod or custom.
I like going to the shows to display my work ,meet some new people , and get inspired by others work. Again me and my brother both really enjoyed seeing your builds.
Btw i am not a club member either. Most modern stuff does get ignored. Its usually even worse with my semi truck models. They tend to get overlooked since they are not a hotrod or custom.
I like going to the shows to display my work ,meet some new people , and get inspired by others work. Again me and my brother both really enjoyed seeing your builds.
Keeperofsouls2099
Joined: January 14, 2009
KitMaker: 2,798 posts
AeroScale: 2,443 posts
Posted: Sunday, September 29, 2013 - 11:15 PM UTC
Thank you sir and gratz on your wins I'm not discouraged in the least but it does say some bad things for the them if my son enters next year he dosnt have a chance.if you noticed the winner of the junior division was a members grandson lol.and it was nice to meet another member in person you have a nice family sir I look forward to your f-22 and possibly doing a group build with you some day 
I did come home with a f-117 that I got the skinny on also a spitfire XI havnt done one yet.sunday things got real cheap lol
I did come home with a f-117 that I got the skinny on also a spitfire XI havnt done one yet.sunday things got real cheap lolmach1revo
Joined: June 08, 2013
KitMaker: 26 posts
AeroScale: 20 posts
Posted: Monday, September 30, 2013 - 12:19 AM UTC
Sundays firesale is the best part of a two day event! I did pick up a kitty hawk
F-35b on saturday pretty cheap though.
F-35b on saturday pretty cheap though.
drabslab
Joined: September 28, 2004
KitMaker: 2,186 posts
AeroScale: 1,587 posts
Posted: Monday, September 30, 2013 - 12:48 AM UTC
I consider it understanable that club members are favoured above non members in small club competitions.
These clubs are totally dependent on those members for creating a good atmosphere, paying expenses and a yearly fee, train the yougsters ...
which should not stop anyone from participating (which is more important than winning anyway). However, having said this I must admit I don't participate in competitions either.
These clubs are totally dependent on those members for creating a good atmosphere, paying expenses and a yearly fee, train the yougsters ...
which should not stop anyone from participating (which is more important than winning anyway). However, having said this I must admit I don't participate in competitions either.
Keeperofsouls2099
Joined: January 14, 2009
KitMaker: 2,798 posts
AeroScale: 2,443 posts
Posted: Monday, September 30, 2013 - 01:08 AM UTC
Nice I didn't see that one lucky 
cinzano
Joined: January 13, 2009
KitMaker: 419 posts
AeroScale: 378 posts
Posted: Monday, September 30, 2013 - 01:41 AM UTC
Never entered an IPMS event, but I have entered more than a few miniatures contests and while I've done very well in them over the years I find the very nature of 'judge based' competition to be somewhat problematic.
I don't feel the need to enter such contests like I did years ago. The nature of the web makes it so much easier to share your work with others than in the past.
I get to draw inspiration every time I log on to Aeroscale now! I also can count on others to give me pointers and critique my work (as well as the occasional "attaboy!")
Cheers,
Fred
I don't feel the need to enter such contests like I did years ago. The nature of the web makes it so much easier to share your work with others than in the past.
I get to draw inspiration every time I log on to Aeroscale now! I also can count on others to give me pointers and critique my work (as well as the occasional "attaboy!")
Cheers,
Fred
JPTRR
Managing Editor#051
Joined: December 21, 2002
KitMaker: 7,772 posts
AeroScale: 3,175 posts
Posted: Monday, September 30, 2013 - 01:58 AM UTC
Justin, et al.,
WARNING: IPMS constructive criticism follows.
I let my IPMS membership lapse a decade ago. I always read with interest IPMS forum debates pro and con; in principle I support IPMS but my experiences in clubs and shows have disgusted me. Like my 3 layers of hand-painted Fokker streaking that lost to a Japanese Carrier-based aircraft weathered with orange rust! I have written about a couple of local friends who go to the big local IPMS show and hardly even place, yet their names are prominent as "Best of..." at MasterCons several years running. To be blunt I think too many of the local yokels can be bias and outright ridiculous; my friends and I attempted to start a local chapter and IIRC needed the neighboring chapter to sponsor us; neighboring chapter would not do so unless we were probationary for a year and required us to build a model from a different genre each month. We politely started our own club.
I believe that until IPMS can find a way to change their reputation to greater inclusion and objectivity, threads like this will continue. I impress that this is a hobby and not a profession, yet I believe National Model Railroad Association is a superior organization. Their NMRA Achievement Program is designed to help modelers improve their skills and get more enjoyment out of their hobby; earning the esteemed peer-review Master Model Railroader title means that a MMR is somebody who's "been there done that" anywhere in the world, not just proclaimed so by his buds.
Pontification over.
WARNING: IPMS constructive criticism follows.
I let my IPMS membership lapse a decade ago. I always read with interest IPMS forum debates pro and con; in principle I support IPMS but my experiences in clubs and shows have disgusted me. Like my 3 layers of hand-painted Fokker streaking that lost to a Japanese Carrier-based aircraft weathered with orange rust! I have written about a couple of local friends who go to the big local IPMS show and hardly even place, yet their names are prominent as "Best of..." at MasterCons several years running. To be blunt I think too many of the local yokels can be bias and outright ridiculous; my friends and I attempted to start a local chapter and IIRC needed the neighboring chapter to sponsor us; neighboring chapter would not do so unless we were probationary for a year and required us to build a model from a different genre each month. We politely started our own club.
I believe that until IPMS can find a way to change their reputation to greater inclusion and objectivity, threads like this will continue. I impress that this is a hobby and not a profession, yet I believe National Model Railroad Association is a superior organization. Their NMRA Achievement Program is designed to help modelers improve their skills and get more enjoyment out of their hobby; earning the esteemed peer-review Master Model Railroader title means that a MMR is somebody who's "been there done that" anywhere in the world, not just proclaimed so by his buds.
Pontification over.
AJLaFleche
Joined: May 05, 2002
KitMaker: 8,074 posts
AeroScale: 328 posts
Posted: Monday, September 30, 2013 - 02:16 AM UTC
Quoted Text
So it was my first imps competition and altough I am not a member it seems to me that the judging is swong more towards members than non members.I also feel that modern aircraft were of no interest as there were many builds besides my own that should have placed.so I guess my question is simple must you be a member to feel the love and by the way 95 percent of the awards in aircraft went to members of that club so what's the point? Geeezzz and I did get a silver medel for the one WWII plane that I brought.and only on other none ipms member placed
Keeperofsouls
Couple things here…this is a common complaint of newbies at shows. Unless the winners were identified by name tags or club shirts, how do you know they were club members? The modeling community is very small, those who join clubs a small part of that, as is the number of those who choose to compete. In any given geographic area, modelers who compete will pretty much know many of the others who compete. And yes, many of the same people win awards at any show they attend. Why? Favoritism? Not likely. The fact is, a good modelers will win over a mediocre modeler every time.
Further, many club members only attend their own show. In my club, maybe 10% of the membership regularly goes to other shows in the region, but at least 50% enter our contest.
I have crunched numbers over these kinds of complaints. If there were 20% of the entries from any given club, about 20% of the awards went to members of that club.About 50% of the entries are typically from non-affiliated entrants. Guess what? About 50% of the awards typically go to neon affiliated entrants.
In our own eyes, every piece we produce is a masterpiece and deserving of best in class, best in category and best in show. The internet reinforces that, especially those sites where anything posted gets an attaboy and any constructive criticism is seen as nit picking.
IPMS membership does not require membership in a local club. Most local clubs, even IPMS affiliates, do not require IPMS membership, though some do.
Quoted Text
I was just at a show over the weekend, and noticed that almost all the winners were members. I am a member as well, but not active. And to me, it seemed that the judges seemed to know a lot of the winners. Even though the names were hidden from the judges, they all, including the volunteer judges attend "Build Nights", thus I must presume they know what each other are working on, thus the finished models are known to the judges. I did see alot of pieces that to me were amazing builds, that did not even place
Sgt Ram
See my comments above. Yes, as a judge, there’s a good chance we know the winners. We have likely judged the same model at several shows and know the highs and lows of the build. Again, quality will rise to the top of any competition. The norm is to have judging teams made up of members of several clubs as well as non affiliated attendees.
What appears to be an amazing piece from three feet away may have serious flaws when examined up close and personal.
Further, if judging is 1-2-2, good builds often go unrewarded because there are better builds with fewer tiny flaws. Conversely, in a category with few entries and poor quality, with 1-2-3 judging, a poor build will likely place and may even take a 1st, even though there are much better builds in the next category.
Quoted Text
Yes sir! I'd also like to mention that all club members won all the raffles one guy eight times the rest 3 to 4 times a pc.no joke I'm sorry I don't have a problem contributing in any way I can but I use to be a member and I'm not going to pay the fees when all I get is a magazine that has pictures of three models and the rest is nothing but members and there home lifes I don't care.
Keeperofsouls
The raffle was fixed? Sorry, but this is Glen Beck Tin Foil Beannie Conspiracy territory. Unless those selling the tickets, and I assume there were tickets sold for the raffle, tossed non members tickets away, everyone has chances to win commensurate with the number of tickets he buys. I rarely buy raffle tickets, it’s just my nature. However, Saturday, to help support the club that sponsored the event I was at, I bought 6 tickets. My numbers came up 3 times. I’m sure there were others with more tickets who weren’t as lucky. But watch closely in the raffle at those who win. Look at the strings of tickets they have.
There were reports of a local club having members help themselves to raffle prizes before the drawings. That club barely exists and can no longer afford to run a show on a regular basis.
If the events at the show referenced by the OP are indeed correct, next year will be the last time this show will be held since people will avoid it for its discrepancies.
Quoted Text
This is a chronic complaint, and the main reason why I refuse to enter contests.
Jessie c
The complaints almost invariably come from newbies and from those who do not judge so they don’t see the work that goes into separating the wheat from the chaff.
Quoted Text
Hey Justin it was great to see your work in person!! Just want to say thanks for bringing the collection it was awesome! I hope you dont get discouraged too much by how that show was judged. It was a odd setup. They viewed your whole collection but only selected one that they felt was the best and only judged that one. Weird for a GSB style. If you go to jaxcon next year that is a 123 judged event with separate catagories. During the awards there were several models i felt were slighted. It was a very toughly judged show. Very few gold standard awards. Not many silvers either.
Btw i am not a club member either. Most modern stuff does get ignored. Its usually even worse with my semi truck models. They tend to get overlooked since they are not a hotrod or custom.
I like going to the shows to display my work ,meet some new people , and get inspired by others work. Again me and my brother both really enjoyed seeing your builds.
Mach1revo
Interesting comment on collections. The norm for a true collection, which should be closely related subjects, is to judge all the models as a single entry and consider the tightness of the theme. For example, there was a “collection” at a show a couple weeks ago. They were all well painted figures, but from several historical periods with no connecting theme. He didn’t place. On the other hand, if the “collection” referenced by mach1revo was actually a display of several entries, pre choosing the best entry for further judging would be the norm in most contests. Some figure type shows may choose to award a display if the subjects are of equal quality even if they are not related.
In most contests, modern stuff if judged against other modern stuff except maybe in showroom stock, racing cars where the standards would be very similar. The other place where modern and vintage might face off are categories where entries are normally limited, 1/72 armor, 1/144 aircraft, powered ships, This weekend, closed top armor was divided into 4 groups: Pre WWII, WWII, Cold War and modern (post 1990).
(Mod's note: I cleaned up the italics to make your text easier to distinguish from the quoted text)
didgeboy
Joined: September 21, 2010
KitMaker: 1,846 posts
AeroScale: 103 posts
Posted: Monday, September 30, 2013 - 02:48 AM UTC
There seems to be a growing consensus among modellers of all genres that IPMS "rules" and "guides" are getting to be a bit more like photons of light, solid one minute and wavy the next. I have just come back from a show recently and posted some thoughts over on the Armorama site, as I mostly build tanks, and exclusively modern. While I would not say that there was overtly and lean towards club members, I do think that they tend to win most of the awards as they are usually the biggest group at the show. Let's face it, it is their show, we are visitors.
Having said that I did find that judging was a bit questionable in some areas. I helped judge some if the aircraft items and some items were judged more critically than others. There was a 1/144 aircraft that was missing paint in the thruster but seemed to be a minor issue for our group. Seams, glue spots, finger prints, all of the obvious things are looked at, but so is the continuity of washes, how they flow over the kit.
Just to be clear none of mine won, I was told because of the open hatches and no fig or int. cest la vie. My first show, so no worries, it was fun either way. I would really like to see rules/ guides for each show posted on the show website and at the check in. It would be very helpful to have IPMS publish national rules and allow these to be open for interpretation at the local and regional levels. Maybe with increasing difficulty as you increase the size of the show.
Something at IPMS needs to change, however, or there will be fewer and fewer people who wish to participate if they feel that the deck is stacked against them or that there are no hard fast rules to follow. Cheers.
Having said that I did find that judging was a bit questionable in some areas. I helped judge some if the aircraft items and some items were judged more critically than others. There was a 1/144 aircraft that was missing paint in the thruster but seemed to be a minor issue for our group. Seams, glue spots, finger prints, all of the obvious things are looked at, but so is the continuity of washes, how they flow over the kit.
Just to be clear none of mine won, I was told because of the open hatches and no fig or int. cest la vie. My first show, so no worries, it was fun either way. I would really like to see rules/ guides for each show posted on the show website and at the check in. It would be very helpful to have IPMS publish national rules and allow these to be open for interpretation at the local and regional levels. Maybe with increasing difficulty as you increase the size of the show.
Something at IPMS needs to change, however, or there will be fewer and fewer people who wish to participate if they feel that the deck is stacked against them or that there are no hard fast rules to follow. Cheers.
mach1revo
Joined: June 08, 2013
KitMaker: 26 posts
AeroScale: 20 posts
Posted: Monday, September 30, 2013 - 02:57 AM UTC
Interesting comment on collections. The norm for a true collection, which should be closely related subjects, is to judge all the models as a single entry and consider the tightness of the theme. For example, there was a “collection” at a show a couple weeks ago. They were all well painted figures, but from several historical periods with no connecting theme. He didn’t place. On the other hand, if the “collection” referenced by mach1revo was actually a display of several entries, pre choosing the best entry for further judging would be the norm in most contests. Some figure type shows may choose to award a display if the subjects are of equal quality even if they are not related. In most contests, modern stuff if judged against other modern stuff except maybe in showroom stock, racing cars where the standards would be very similar. The other place where modern and vintage might face off are categories where entries are normally limited, 1/72 armor, 1/144 aircraft, powered ships, This weekend, closed top armor was divided into 4 groups: Pre WWII, WWII, Cold War and modern (post 1990).
Unfortunately this was not for "collections" . At this particular show there were no individual catagories within the groups. All aircraft regardless of scale, type , era ...etc were together making one "group". Same for ship , military , automotive etc. If you had more than one entry in a "group" they were placed together on the table. They then judged them either as a whole if they felt they were all exactly equal quality or only judged the best one out of your "group" . Quite different from previous Ipms shows i have done which have all been 123 with separate catagories.
Unfortunately this was not for "collections" . At this particular show there were no individual catagories within the groups. All aircraft regardless of scale, type , era ...etc were together making one "group". Same for ship , military , automotive etc. If you had more than one entry in a "group" they were placed together on the table. They then judged them either as a whole if they felt they were all exactly equal quality or only judged the best one out of your "group" . Quite different from previous Ipms shows i have done which have all been 123 with separate catagories.
Snorri23
Joined: March 25, 2010
KitMaker: 514 posts
AeroScale: 244 posts
Posted: Monday, September 30, 2013 - 03:21 AM UTC
Yes I have heard and experienced a lot of what has been mentioned. For me it depends upon the show. Judging should be objective but mostly it becomes subjective which is unfortunate. We are all human and these flaws will occurr. Go to these events with the idea of seeing good finished models, gaining ideas and do not let poor club management ruin a positive event. Cheers
Joel_W
Associate EditorJoined: December 04, 2010
KitMaker: 11,666 posts
AeroScale: 7,410 posts
Posted: Monday, September 30, 2013 - 03:25 AM UTC
I have to say that I'm quite surprised at this thread. Simply because back in the 1970's when I was a active IPMS member and local club member, I was most interested in competitions. Back then I entered a club contest solely because it was a club activity. I entered one or two IPMS regionals per year depending on where the 2nd regional was held, and if the Nationals were close enough, I entered that competition as well.
I always volunteered to judge, and when our club hosted a regional, or National, I was always appointed contest chairman. I mention this as I did acquire somewhat of an expertise in how to judge, and how to run a contest.
Each category was judged by a 3 main team that I and or my assistants put together, and made sure that none were from the same club, put it was virtually impossible to have 3 strangers make up each team, as over the years the same people tend to always volunteer to be judges. We just made sure by asking that they not judge any category in which a friend had entered, and of course one that they were entered in. We also had new judges paired with two experienced judges. Everyone had to learn how to judge some time, and by doing it with two experienced judges, the learning curve was usually painless.
In my charge to the judging teams, we always stressed basics 1st. The model had to be perfectly built, and perfectly painted. Variations of colors was an accepted issue that we really didn't concern ourselves with. What weathering was done, had to be realistic. we often had pictures and reference material left with the entries to support their builds. Detailing was just that, detailing over ad ons from After Market companies. A cockpit made of ones own work would always achieve a higher score then one purchased, and just added even if it was more detailed. Contestants names were on a portion of the entry form that was folded over so that we couldn't see it.
There was one additional judging team. My team, which consisted of myself & my two assistants. Our only function was to answer questions by the teams, view their results, and question those results if we felt that they were wrong. Most IPMS contests were run that way back then.
I can attest to the fact that poor judging, or worse, judging for friends or club members models was a quick way of never being asked to judge again. After years of Regionals, the regulars knew each other. We took pride in what, and how we judged.
Sure, there were always entrants who felt that their model should have placed, and didn't. One way that our region handled those issues was by requiring all winning entries to be left on the contest tables till noon on Sunday, and that my team would be available to discuss judging issues. We asked many of the judging teams to be available for a hour or so in the morning to answer questions as to how they arrived at their conclusions. All the entrants knew this before hand. It was never really an issue for the vast majority of entrants. But when a issue did come up, we could explain in a logical manner how that team arrived at their decisions.
One thing that I seem to be confused about, is the props over jets complaint. The larger the competition, the more specific categories we had. Jets were never classed with props, bombers with fighters, one era mixed with another. Sure we had a ton of categories, but that is just the nature of the beast.
Like many, I got burnt out over years of building for competitions, and just lost interest in the hobby. 30 years later, I'm back, but not as a contest orientated modeler. The internet, and sites specifically like Aeroscale are now my club.
Joel.
I always volunteered to judge, and when our club hosted a regional, or National, I was always appointed contest chairman. I mention this as I did acquire somewhat of an expertise in how to judge, and how to run a contest.
Each category was judged by a 3 main team that I and or my assistants put together, and made sure that none were from the same club, put it was virtually impossible to have 3 strangers make up each team, as over the years the same people tend to always volunteer to be judges. We just made sure by asking that they not judge any category in which a friend had entered, and of course one that they were entered in. We also had new judges paired with two experienced judges. Everyone had to learn how to judge some time, and by doing it with two experienced judges, the learning curve was usually painless.
In my charge to the judging teams, we always stressed basics 1st. The model had to be perfectly built, and perfectly painted. Variations of colors was an accepted issue that we really didn't concern ourselves with. What weathering was done, had to be realistic. we often had pictures and reference material left with the entries to support their builds. Detailing was just that, detailing over ad ons from After Market companies. A cockpit made of ones own work would always achieve a higher score then one purchased, and just added even if it was more detailed. Contestants names were on a portion of the entry form that was folded over so that we couldn't see it.
There was one additional judging team. My team, which consisted of myself & my two assistants. Our only function was to answer questions by the teams, view their results, and question those results if we felt that they were wrong. Most IPMS contests were run that way back then.
I can attest to the fact that poor judging, or worse, judging for friends or club members models was a quick way of never being asked to judge again. After years of Regionals, the regulars knew each other. We took pride in what, and how we judged.
Sure, there were always entrants who felt that their model should have placed, and didn't. One way that our region handled those issues was by requiring all winning entries to be left on the contest tables till noon on Sunday, and that my team would be available to discuss judging issues. We asked many of the judging teams to be available for a hour or so in the morning to answer questions as to how they arrived at their conclusions. All the entrants knew this before hand. It was never really an issue for the vast majority of entrants. But when a issue did come up, we could explain in a logical manner how that team arrived at their decisions.
One thing that I seem to be confused about, is the props over jets complaint. The larger the competition, the more specific categories we had. Jets were never classed with props, bombers with fighters, one era mixed with another. Sure we had a ton of categories, but that is just the nature of the beast.
Like many, I got burnt out over years of building for competitions, and just lost interest in the hobby. 30 years later, I'm back, but not as a contest orientated modeler. The internet, and sites specifically like Aeroscale are now my club.
Joel.
Jessie_C
Joined: September 03, 2009
KitMaker: 6,965 posts
AeroScale: 6,247 posts
Posted: Monday, September 30, 2013 - 03:54 AM UTC
Quoted Text
The complaints almost invariably come from newbies and from those who do not judge so they don’t see the work that goes into separating the wheat from the chaff.
The complaints come from anyone who can see and observe bias in action. I'm not accusing any one club and certainly not any one person, but the complaints have been happening for the past 30 years that I have been observing and reading about IPMS contests. If there was no substance to them, they would have gone away 25 years ago; you cannot maintain a controversy that long without actual cause. The IPMS local contest judging rules are inherently flawed and until they are changed, this bias will continue to operate.
Yes, there's a lot of expertise needed to be a judge. I get that totally; I've judged before. I also get that many if not most judges try to remain free of bias, yet inevitably there are always complaints, and not always from the newbies.
What really needs to happen is the importation of guest judges who can remain totally impartial. The largest barrier to this is cost: experts are expensive.
TheBeastman
Joined: September 12, 2013
KitMaker: 18 posts
AeroScale: 13 posts
Posted: Monday, September 30, 2013 - 04:31 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextThe complaints almost invariably come from newbies and from those who do not judge so they don’t see the work that goes into separating the wheat from the chaff.
The complaints come from anyone who can see and observe bias in action. I'm not accusing any one club and certainly not any one person, but the complaints have been happening for the past 30 years that I have been observing and reading about IPMS contests. If there was no substance to them, they would have gone away 25 years ago; you cannot maintain a controversy that long without actual cause. The IPMS local contest judging rules are inherently flawed and until they are changed, this bias will continue to operate.
Yes, there's a lot of expertise needed to be a judge. I get that totally; I've judged before. I also get that many if not most judges try to remain free of bias, yet inevitably there are always complaints, and not always from the newbies.
What really needs to happen is the importation of guest judges who can remain totally impartial. The largest barrier to this is cost: experts are expensive.
Another way would be to democratize the process... public entrants to the exhibition get a ticket book that they can post in a ballot box at each station... not perfect but would avoid judging bias.
AJLaFleche
Joined: May 05, 2002
KitMaker: 8,074 posts
AeroScale: 328 posts
Posted: Monday, September 30, 2013 - 04:42 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextQuoted TextThe complaints almost invariably come from newbies and from those who do not judge so they don’t see the work that goes into separating the wheat from the chaff.
The complaints come from anyone who can see and observe bias in action. I'm not accusing any one club and certainly not any one person, but the complaints have been happening for the past 30 years that I have been observing and reading about IPMS contests. If there was no substance to them, they would have gone away 25 years ago; you cannot maintain a controversy that long without actual cause. The IPMS local contest judging rules are inherently flawed and until they are changed, this bias will continue to operate.
Yes, there's a lot of expertise needed to be a judge. I get that totally; I've judged before. I also get that many if not most judges try to remain free of bias, yet inevitably there are always complaints, and not always from the newbies.
What really needs to happen is the importation of guest judges who can remain totally impartial. The largest barrier to this is cost: experts are expensive.
Another way would be to democratize the process... public entrants to the exhibition get a ticket book that they can post in a ballot box at each station... not perfect but would avoid judging bias.
People's choice rewards WOW factor, not excellence. We used to have that at our show many years ago...a big sailing ship with gaps you could drop a quarter through took the award. The other problem is true favoritism. Bring your friends and stuff the ballot box. We went to an open mike event this summer at our local community theater. A pair of girls who did a dance routine won. We knew no one on stage but several performances were significantly better than the girls. They brought a boatload of friends, however and skewed the ballot. Also, if ballot distribution is not controlled, there's nothing stopping me from grabbing them all and voting for my model. Not ethical of course, but not everyone is.
Some form of judging team may not be perfect, humans being humans, both in the honest error and the cooking departments, but it's the best system we have.
Joel_W
Associate EditorJoined: December 04, 2010
KitMaker: 11,666 posts
AeroScale: 7,410 posts
Posted: Monday, September 30, 2013 - 04:50 AM UTC
Jessica, the importation of unbiased, expertise judges in reality is just too expensive for any club that is hosting a IPMS regional or National to even consider. Transportation, lodging, and living expenses are the three main issues. With literally hundreds of models to be judged, you would need a core min of a dozen judges. None would or could be local as the issue of neutrality would dictate that importing judges from a distance would be the only way to go about it. Who would decide whose qualified to be a expert, and what qualifications would one need to reach that level of expertise?
Matt, back in the 1970's all paid attendees were given a ballot to vote for the Most Popular model. But letting them vote for the best of each category on what they liked or disliked might be idealistically democratic, but would produce non-standardized and unregulated winners that would basically be a crap shoot. You actually would end up getting people voting on what their person preferences are without having the slightest idea of what one should look for in judging.
As long as judges are volunteers, you will always have a wide variation in quality, expertise, and concept. It's up to the contest chairperson, and his staff to set the tone for the judging standards, and to enforce them.
Joel
Matt, back in the 1970's all paid attendees were given a ballot to vote for the Most Popular model. But letting them vote for the best of each category on what they liked or disliked might be idealistically democratic, but would produce non-standardized and unregulated winners that would basically be a crap shoot. You actually would end up getting people voting on what their person preferences are without having the slightest idea of what one should look for in judging.
As long as judges are volunteers, you will always have a wide variation in quality, expertise, and concept. It's up to the contest chairperson, and his staff to set the tone for the judging standards, and to enforce them.
Joel
AJLaFleche
Joined: May 05, 2002
KitMaker: 8,074 posts
AeroScale: 328 posts
Posted: Monday, September 30, 2013 - 04:57 AM UTC
Quoted Text
What really needs to happen is the importation of guest judges who can remain totally impartial. The largest barrier to this is cost: experts are expensive.
We judge on basic. Virtually ALL the elimination of models is done on fairly basic errors, seams, glue marks, silvered decals, misaligned wheels, poorly applied paint, etc.You don't need to be an expert, either on the subject or modeling to see these errors when you are looking up close as a judge does.
My club has discussed having all outsiders as judges. That requires virtually conscripting and Shanghaiing judges on the day of the event. For us, it would be even more challenging, since only aircraft and cars are judged with standards 1-2-3 awards with the rest being done on an open system which our guys get training on before each show. As it it, we populate our teams as much as possible from our ranks to relieve the crush on contest day and fill in the blanks with visitors. It is at times impossible, in a room of over a hundred people to get a dozen non club volunteers to help out. Even bringing in members from other clubs does not guarantee impartiality. In factor, since they have no stake in maintaining the appearance of integrity of the host event, they might even be more likely to favor their friends.
When you are competing, and there are only 3 awards to be given out and you don't get one for your masterpiece, you may not have he self awareness to realize there was simply better work on the table that day. Therefore,judging was incompetent or biased. As long as we have events where my product will be judged against yours or a standard, there's a likelihood that someone will get their paints all in a bunch if they don't win. There will be weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth on the aftermath.
staff_Jim
PublisherJoined: December 15, 2001
KitMaker: 12,571 posts
AeroScale: 510 posts
Posted: Monday, September 30, 2013 - 05:32 AM UTC
Quoted Text
People's choice rewards WOW factor, not excellence. We used to have that at our show many years ago...a big sailing ship with gaps you could drop a quarter through took the award.
Al... true but even I (who supports and is a member of the local IPMS Fresno group), have a serious issues with the *way* judging is done for IPMS competitions. For example; From what I understand of the rules if a model is attached to a base then judges cannot potentially see all of the underside of a model. However if it is not they can pickup the model and examine it from all angles. If a seam or error is detected on the not normally visible parts of the underside... bam! entry eliminated from potential medal award (assuming there are more than 3 entries without errors). I just find the whole system a bit odd. By that kind of standard a Shep Paine diorama might have been eliminated in favor of a diorama of a perfectly done Sherman tank sitting in a field with a tree next to it.
Probably why he led the way to bring a different methodology to assigning awards at shows or competitions.
Cheers,
Jim
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