Hi there,

I am going to attempt to build Tamiya's Messerschmitt Bf 109 E3 to display with my Tamiya Spitfire Mk1. I have decided to use the Eduard zoom set FE205 along with their mask set EX019. I will be depicting the version on the box top and I am thinking of using vallejo model air for the main colours.

My local shop advises using Tamiya XF-22 RLM Grey for the interior, would this be correct?

Cheers, Jim.

Not being accustomed with Tamiya's acrylics, I checked IPMS Stockholm's German paint chart, and it recommends either a 50/50 mix of FX-22 and FX-49 or just FX-22. Now if FX-22 is a darkish grey as online shops seem to show it, it would be quite dark and not greenish enough, IMHO.
However, the instructions seem to have the interior color wrong, since it should be RLM02 on Bf-109 E3 (RLM66 used from E4 to K4). The kit's painting and marking instructions you posted tell to mix RLM02 from 1 part each of FX-22 and 49. I'd go with that, if you especially wish to use Tamiya paints on the interior. If not, you could also use the same Vallejo RLM02 equivalent you plan to use on the exterior.

Hope this helps.

Jim, Tamiya's RLM Grey is close to RLM 02 enough for you to go ahead and use, with the color PE set though I try to match the paint on the parts not go with the correct historical colors. But since this is an early build RLM 2 grau is correectfor the entire interior. Good luck and have fun I just threw one together ;ast week just to finish a kit for once. Steve

Hi there Eetu,

Thank you very much for your reply. That link will be handy in the future. The instructions do say to use RLM 02 for the interior with the floor XF-63 German grey. I maybe misinterpreted what the shop owner told me about XF-22. I think I will go with the equivellent vallejo colour for the interior as you suggest. I am going to the Glasgow model show this Saturday so will pick up the colours then hopefully.

RLM 02 = Vallejo model air 71044
RLM 65 = Vallejo model air 71008
RLM 71 = Vallejo model air 71015

Thanks once again for your help.

Hi Steve,

Thanks for the reply. I see what you mean about matching the colour of the etch. I will get the vallejo colour and see if it is a better match than the tamiya. There are only a few grey parts so I may just paint over these with whatever colour I use.

Thanks again

Cheers, Jim.

Beware the early/late split for 02/66. As part of a discussion elsewhere about early,BOB, Ju88 interiors which were certainly RLM66 this contribution was made by Dave (Tango98 from Canada) regarding Bf 109 s of the same period. I take no credit for this, I quote him here

"Not certain which Luftwaffe types you are considering but the following may be of interest to you if modelling Bf 109s or 190s.

In brief, research to date by my colleagues and I along with photographs and the information contained within copies of the relevant RLM & Messerschmitt documentation in our files identifies the basic cockpit colour for the entire 109E, F-0 and the earliest F-1 series as 02 with the instrument panel in 66 although grey 41 is also mentioned in one reference to instrument panels fitted to early E-1s.

However, while it is true that some E models did feature cockpits finished entirely in 66, this was due to which particular sub-contractor (e.g. Arado, Fieseler etc) built the airframe (regardless of sub-type) and not because of any directive, theatre of operation etc.

Photographic evidence of 109s brought down over the UK during the B of B where the interior of the cockpit is clearly visible, clearly show that, while the sidewalls, seat etc are finished in 02, the cockpit sills and sloping area immediately behind the pilot’s shoulders was finished in a much darker colour, which was, in all probability, black-grey 66. Logic dictating that it was likely carried out for two simple reasons - to eliminate glare and to avoid compromising the dark(er) upper fuselage camouflage of the aircraft when viewed from above. Additionally and just to confuse matters further, several E variants brought down over the UK which bore 02 finished cockpits had very dark coloured floor panels suggesting the use of perhaps 66 or even black for these areas.

Interestingly, every enemy aircraft that was brought down over the UK was extensively photographed in situ, the first being four basic views of the front, rear and port and starboard sides followed by areas of interest such as crew/cockpit areas etc. In such photos of 109s where the light grey (02) interior of the cockpit is clearly visible, several have the upper areas finished in a darker colour as mentioned above with a few, as also outlined above, having dark painted (i.e. 66) cockpits. This same is true in extant photos of many of the 109Es brought down, captured etc in the Mediterranean theatre, which, while retaining a basic 02 cockpit, have all areas above the pilot’s, shoulders painted in 66 or similar dark colour.

As far as canopy framing goes, that for the early rounded style was generally finished in 02 but according to recent documentary evidence discovered by German and Dutch researchers, the heavier framed canopies were painted inside and out in 66 at the source of manufacture. The exterior framework often being left in this colour rather than being repainted to match the surrounding camouflage finish; this would then be the most likely explanation why many 109s with the heavier framed canopies are often seen with the exterior canopy framework much darker than the adjacent camouflage colour(s).

For all subsequent Bf 109F, G & K variants with the exception of a few of the very earliest Bf 109F-1s, the entire cockpit, including seat was finished in 66, the same being generally true for all variants of the Fw 190 excluding the very early V (prototype) airframes.

As a broad rule of thumb, 02 as a cockpit finish was ordered replaced by 66 in November 1941. However, if your chosen subject is to have an 02 cockpit, don't worry too much about the variety of shades of this colour available in model paints as the same inconsistencies occurred even with the real colour which led to the RLM sending out advisory notices on several occasions between mid-1941 and early 1944 quoting that no concern should be raised about the colour differences between batches of 02 citing such things as quality control etc, etc.


HTH

Dave"

I'd just add that I'm planning Revell's big BOB Ju88 and its interior,despite the early date, is definitely RLM 66.

Cheers
Steve

Hi Steve,

Thanks for showing me that, and thanks to dave too. Well this certainly is a grey area(sorry!). I think I will experiment with the colours on some scrap and then make a decision.

Thanks again and good luck with the Ju88,

Jim.

I agree ..you can't go wrong with choosing RLM 02 as the color for the interior (especially with this aircraft and time period). For the RLM colors, I like to use ModelMaster's acrylics which have a wide range of RLM colors already mixed. I've done 3 Luftwaffe aircrafts with their line of colors with good results.

Hi Jim

Well, we had two Bf 109 blogs recently though I do hesitate a bit to post them, as one is mine, it will maybe help you a bit (in some places)

Daniel Candals Tamiya Bf 109 E-4 "all hatches open"

Tamiya Bf 109E-4 (pretty much) OOB

Colours discussed in length ... RLM02 is a safe bet for this Bf 109E-3 IMO.

While I prefer Gunze, the Vallejo's are not bad either. I just do not like their tendency to form a skin (do not know if this makes sense in English) i.e. the cohesion between the pigments is stronger than their adhesion to the model so if you make a mistake and have to sand or correct something you might pull larger areas of paint from the model ... very annoying. A layer of good primer might help ... They match the colour shades quite well, except of RLM 74 which IIMO is much too blue and has almost no green hue ...

all the best

Steffen

Hi there Hermann and Steffen,

Thanks for the input guys. Looks like RLM 2 it is. I don't know about the availability of model master paints on this side of the pond Hermann, but I will make enquiries at the model show on Saturday.

I have used the vallejo model color range for brush work and they are great, although I will be looking out for those pitfalls you mentioned Steffen when using the model air. Nice build by the way, great finish with excellent weathering. Well done Daniel too. Thanks for taking the time to post the links, very usefull!

Thanks again guys,

Jim.

I agree that 02 is a safe bet for this period. The point Dave was making is that on many pictures of downed 109's the cockpit sills and area behind the seat were finished in a significantly darker shade. He and his colleagues have interpreted that as being most likely RLM 66.
Some people seem unwilling to accept this colours early use for interiors, but both the early Ju88s being restored in Norway have 66 interiors. Here is what Guttorm has to say:

"Our Ju 88A1 is the earlist surviving junkers 88 today and it was the the 70 junkers 88A1 that rolled of the productionline ( werknumber 0880119 )
and also one of the first with the X gerat installed ! it interios is painted in RLM 66 and do not have any parts painted in 02 )
i can not speak of all early Ju 88`s but the C2 we have is werknumber 0880133 and that is also painted in interior 66.. and also the A5 0886146 salvaged was painted in 66..so to me that that is a clear clue that during the BoB they were all 66 in the interior"

Obviously this is not about Bf109s but it does show that the colour was being used for interiors much earlier than was the common concensus.
Cheers
Steve

Just to give you another motivation kick to build your One-O-Nine, Jim. This is my Tamiya-"Emil" from last year .....

Torsten

Just a quick question on painting these since I have the Tamiya BF 109 E4/7 kit on the bench right now.

I am looking at back dating the kit from an Oct 1940 BF 109 to an Summer 1940 one, before they applied the Mottle. Wouold they have just added the Mottle and kept all the original unit markings on the plane? All I want to do in not add the Mottle and remove the Yellow nose and tail surfaces.

Thanks,

Cam

Hi all

Well I have come to this thread quite late but have read it this morning with great interest. I am currently well in to a build of the Tamiya E-3, detailing with the full Eduard etch set. I am just about to close up the cockpit, which I have painted with the Gunze acrylic version of RLM02. Eduard's colour etch is fantastic, but unfortunately as some have said here its interpretation of RLM02 is not great, being close (but not identical) to Tamiya's RLM02, which is itself not a great version of RLM02. However it was easy to just paint this over with the Gunze RLM02; the rest of the colour etch is great, particularly the instrument panel.

Will post pics when I take some. The E-3 scheme I'm doing is the I/JG76 machine, "White 1", that accidentally landed in France in Nov 39 and was subsequently evaluated by the French and British; there's a very good series of photos of the plane in its German, French and British guises in the recent Kecay book entitled "Captured Me 109s".

cheers Brad

Hi there all,

Thanks again Steve for your input.

Very nice Torsten, motivation gone up a few notches.

Cam, being an almost complete newbie to things with wings I cannot answer your question but I am sure someone here can help.

Brad, I'm looking forward to seeing pics of your build.

Welcome aboard all.

Purchased the vallejo paints today. I think the RLM-65 is a wee bit too blue but I also have the lifecolor version which isn't quite so, well, blue! I will experiment before painting the model.

Cheers and thanks again

Jim.

Here is a pic of the paints;

Hi Jim

Well I think the vallejo is quite o.k. (just stir it thoroughly before each use) RLM 65 actually is blue! as opposed to the late RLM 76 which is rather grey. to make things even worse there seem to be several versions of RLM 65: one which is close to 76 (but still blue) and one that is a bit more blue ... are you still with me well and then there is RLM 78, early birds re-painted with 76 instead of 65 ... not to mention the late war "shades of grey" .. welcome to the battle ground

For modelling purposes I would rather go with a tone towards the bluer RLM 65 to make it different to the later grey schemes .. of course you might have another opinion on that.

all the best

Steffen

Steffen is on the money re: RLM65. Don't worry too much about variations in RLM02 either. It varied so much between various sub contractors that the RLM felt obliged to release directives effectively telling them not to worry about it. If they didn't at the time I sure as hell wouldn't now!
If you are going with the standard 71/02 upper colours definitely do the lower surfaces in 65.
Many units operating on the channel front were mixing their own non-standard grey colours,considered by some the pre cursors to the later (officially November 1941) 74/75 over 76 scheme. These colours became available in May 1941 and Messerschmitt started to apply them unilaterally and unofficially shortly thereafter.
Brad, the mottle was simply applied in addition to the standard camouflage so you can just leave it off. It often overlapped or completely obscured the factory stencils so if you don't apply the mottle you will have to apply the stencils! Some units,around the time they applied the mottle, also seem to have altered the fuselage crosses, mainly by reducing the white border. I have a picture somewhere in which the border has been reduced by crudely overpainting in a dark (RLM70 or 71?) colour.
I quite like the look of a Bf109 without the mottle,but you can see why the pilots felt that the sides were a bit bright!
Cheers
Steve

Hi there,

Thanks once again Steffen and Steven. RLM 65 it is for the lower surfaces. I might try using the lifecolor as a highlight over the vallejo. It's good to hear there was plenty of variation in colours. Makes life a lot easier for us modellers!

I have the cockpit parts partly assembled and primed. I have used alclad primer which is just about exactly the same colour as the plastic, but trust me it is there!

p.s.
I have put together most of the instrument panel but was wondering about the rectangular panel which attatches to the bottom. Should it be in the centre or, as the eduard instructions seem to suggest, slightly to the left?

Thanks again people,

Jim.

Mmmmm. I'm looking at a couple of pictures of E series cockpits (one a restoration which could be anything) and they don't appear to have a sub panel at all. Having said that I also have an image of the cockpit in a Messerschmitt test aircraft which, according to Merrick, has a sub panel which was fitted to the E1 and E3 variants and that is indeed off to the left. As you are doing an E3 I'd go with the instructions.
As for colours it's great isn't it? there are very few reliable colour images so all you can do is approximate the stipulated RLM colours. There is plenty of evidence that these varied widely,particularly towards the end of the war, which as you rightly say makes our "job" easier.

Looks good so far.

Cheers

Steve

By the sub panel, do you mean this one:

(check out the supercharger intake on the right side and gunsight on the left - a mirrored photo?)

I think that's the bomb rack control panel.

Hi Eetu

definitely mirrored (opened canopy left, should be right)

cheers

Steffen

Hi there guys,

Thanks a lot for the pic Eetu, just what I need. That is exactly the panel I am talking about, I will line it up as in the picture, taking the mirror image into account of course.

Once again Steven and Steffen, thanks for your very much appreciated help.

I have painted most of the interior parts now. Going to do some detail painting and then some light weathering and finally button up the cockpit. Pictures will follow soon.

Thanks again guys,

Cheers,

Jim.

Oh, I forgot. I'm not absolutely sure whether the panel should be there. According to this article the E-3/B was a ground attack version that could use a bomb rack.

So if you're building a regular fighter version, I'd leave the bomb rack control panel off.

Now I've confused myself. The picture I have looks like the same panel(s) as those in Eetu's post. Sorry I can't scan it at the moment, however in the text:

"The sub panel contained the type of dimmer switch fitted to the E-1 and E-3 variants, but also present was a ZSK bomb selector panel of the type fitted to the E-4 B and E-7 variants."

Not sure what's what now and I'm thinking of doing one of these myself. The text implies that a sub panel (not the bomb selector panel) was fitted to the E-3 to mount this dimmer switch, I think.

Cheers

Steve (confused of Birmingham)

Hi there,

Thanks Eetu and Steven. I will make a decision on the mysterious panel when I get round to assembling the cockpit.

I decided to use a fine pointed black felt tip pen to add detail to the panel on the right hand side of the cockpit only to have it run once I sprayed on a coat of future. Oh well, lesson learned. Once the future is dry I will use a wash then matt coat.

Here are a couple of pics,

Thanks again

Jim.